From sentto-2266408-840-1041978746-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Jan  7 14:32:31 2003
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From: "Darius Thieme" <dthiemepop@Mindspring.com>
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Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 16:41:06 -0600
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: offer for books
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Dear "irem"  Tell me a little more.  Firstly, the e'mail I sent to the ekumen website on Yahoo lists some of the books this bookstore has, and, I may have told you this before, the owner encourages anybody = anybody -- to write to their address & inquire.  If you didn'tr get enough information in my last e-mail, please write to me again, and I'll see if I can help.  I go in to this store very frequently, and the sales people and the owner hven't said anything to me about having heard from readers they think might have heard about this offer. 

Anyway, keep on reading & Happy New Year

Darius Thieme
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: irrem 
  To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:10 PM
  Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: offer for books


  Well....I'm saying "Hi" ^.^
  As a foreigner, and living in a not english-speaking country, I find 
  often difficulties in the search of Le Guin books. I'm not sure if 
  the offer you made is so simple...but if it's even remotely possible, 
  count me on!I live in Italy, where Le Guin works aren't exactly 
  unknown, simply impossible to obtain (most of them were printed time 
  ago, and copies are hard to track)
  Paula
  --- In the-ekumen@y..., "MindSpring User" <dthiemepop@M...> wrote:
  > Hopefully some of you read my offer, copied onto our website by our 
  Webmaster.
  > Anyway, I'm going to repeat it here, and please RESPOND, say "hi", 
  make suggestions , so I'll know if should do more, less, forget it, 
  or whatever.
  > 
  > I frequent a good local bookstore, which almost always has some 
  LeGjuin works.
  > It just dawned on me the other day that maybe the owner would be 
  willing to ship.  The answer is yes. Her prices are reasonable: 
  averaging $2.50 for paperbacks. Also, they also have an e-mail 
  address.  I'm going there today, and I'll put together a list of some 
  of what they've got, just to give you an idea.
  > 
  > Also, I should say I was impressed with the very avid and 
  thoughtful readership on our website, that a few of you were 
  introspective readers, and some had difficulties getting books, owing 
  to the situation you were in (another country, inaccesible stores, 
  foreign exchange problems, etc.).  Maybe I might be willing to help 
  out in a few cases in some kind of way, like perhaps sending a few 
  books to you from the bookstore.  So, watch for my next message with 
  the bookstore list (asap).
  > 
  > Good reading to you!
  > Darius =====   ciao!
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From sentto-2266408-841-1042043908-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 08:38:55 2003
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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 08:38:32 -0800
Subject: [the-ekumen] Fwd: SFWA Grand Master Announced
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This was passed on to me from a reliable source ...

>SFWA Grand Master Named
>
>It is my honor to announce that Ursula K. Le Guin, author of The
>Dispossessed, The Left Hand of Darkness, and the Earthsea tales, has been
>recognized as a SFWA Grand Master.
>
>The selection was made by the SFWA Board of Directors, in conjunction with
>the living past presidents of SFWA.  Presentation of the award will be mad=
e
>during the Nebula Awards=AE Weekend in Philadelphia, April 18-20, 2003.
>
>Ms. Le Guin's career spans forty years, beginning with the publication of
>"April in Paris," in Fantastic (1962), and includes seventeen novels and
>numerous shorter works, as well as many poems and critical essays.  Her
>work has won wide recognition, garnering, among others, the PEN/Malamud
>Award for Short Fiction, the James Tiptree Jr. Award, and the Sturgeon, as
>well as multiple Nebula and Hugo awards.
>
>Ms. Le Guin is the twentieth writer recognized by SFWA as a Grand
>Master.  She joins Robert A. Heinlein (1974), Jack Williamson (1975),
>Clifford D. Simak (1976), L. Sprague de Camp (1978), Fritz Leiber (1981),
>Andre Norton (1983), Arthur C. Clarke (1985), Isaac Asimov (1986), Alfred
>Bester (1987), Ray Bradbury (1988), Lester del Rey (1990), Frederik Pohl
>(1992), Damon Knight (1994), A. E. van Vogt (1995), Jack Vance (1996), Pou=
l
>Anderson (1997), Hal Clement (1998), Brian Aldiss (1999), and Philip Jose
>Farmer (2000).
>
>Sharon Lee
>President


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From sentto-2266408-842-1042045377-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 09:03:01 2003
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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:01:14 -0600
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Fwd: SFWA Grand Master Announced
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So LeGuin is the first woman accorded this honor? Wow.

I


On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 10:38  AM, David S. Bratman wrote:

> This was passed on to me from a reliable source ...
>
> >SFWA Grand Master Named
> >
> >It is my honor to announce that Ursula K. Le Guin, author of The
> >Dispossessed, The Left Hand of Darkness, and the Earthsea tales, has=20
> been
> >recognized as a SFWA Grand Master.
> >
> >The selection was made by the SFWA Board of Directors, in conjunction=20
> with
> >the living past presidents of SFWA.=A0 Presentation of the award will=20
> be made
> >during the Nebula Awards=AE Weekend in Philadelphia, April 18-20, 2003.
> >
> >Ms. Le Guin's career spans forty years, beginning with the=20
> publication of
> >"April in Paris," in Fantastic (1962), and includes seventeen novels=20
> and
> >numerous shorter works, as well as many poems and critical essays.=A0=20
> Her
> >work has won wide recognition, garnering, among others, the=20
> PEN/Malamud
> >Award for Short Fiction, the James Tiptree Jr. Award, and the=20
> Sturgeon, as
> >well as multiple Nebula and Hugo awards.
> >
> >Ms. Le Guin is the twentieth writer recognized by SFWA as a Grand
> >Master.=A0 She joins Robert A. Heinlein (1974), Jack Williamson (1975),
> >Clifford D. Simak (1976), L. Sprague de Camp (1978), Fritz Leiber=20
> (1981),
> >Andre Norton (1983), Arthur C. Clarke (1985), Isaac Asimov (1986),=20
> Alfred
> >Bester (1987), Ray Bradbury (1988), Lester del Rey (1990), Frederik=20
> Pohl
> >(1992), Damon Knight (1994), A. E. van Vogt (1995), Jack Vance=20
> (1996), Poul
> >Anderson (1997), Hal Clement (1998), Brian Aldiss (1999), and Philip=20
> Jose
> >Farmer (2000).
> >
> >Sharon Lee
> >President
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
-----
Eight blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work,=20
pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce=20
without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice,=20
politics without principle, and rights without responsibilities.
Mahatma and Arun Gandhi
-----
Ian W. Riddell
iwriddell@charter.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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=20

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From sentto-2266408-843-1042046671-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 09:24:35 2003
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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 09:24:35 -0800
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Fwd: SFWA Grand Master Announced
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At 09:01 AM 1/8/2003 , Ian W. Riddell wrote:
>So LeGuin is the first woman accorded this honor? Wow.

Andre Norton is also a woman.

>On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 10:38  AM, David S. Bratman wrote:
>
>> This was passed on to me from a reliable source ...
>>
>> >SFWA Grand Master Named
>> >...
>> >Ms. Le Guin is the twentieth writer recognized by SFWA as a Grand
>> >Master.  She joins Robert A. Heinlein (1974), Jack Williamson (1975),
>> >Clifford D. Simak (1976), L. Sprague de Camp (1978), Fritz Leiber 
>> (1981),
>> >Andre Norton (1983), Arthur C. Clarke (1985), Isaac Asimov (1986), 
>> Alfred
>> >Bester (1987), Ray Bradbury (1988), Lester del Rey (1990), Frederik 
>> Pohl
>> >(1992), Damon Knight (1994), A. E. van Vogt (1995), Jack Vance 
>> (1996), Poul
>> >Anderson (1997), Hal Clement (1998), Brian Aldiss (1999), and Philip 
>> Jose
>> >Farmer (2000).


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From sentto-2266408-844-1042047447-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 09:37:32 2003
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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:35:43 -0600
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On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 11:24  AM, David S. Bratman wrote:

> At 09:01 AM 1/8/2003 , Ian W. Riddell wrote:
> >So LeGuin is the first woman accorded this honor? Wow.
>
> Andre Norton is also a woman.
>

Ooops. I always wondered about that. Still, 2 out of 20 is not a great=20
ratio.

i


> >On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 10:38=A0 AM, David S. Bratman wrote:
> >
> >> This was passed on to me from a reliable source ...
> >>
> >> >SFWA Grand Master Named
> >> >...
> >> >Ms. Le Guin is the twentieth writer recognized by SFWA as a Grand
> >> >Master.=A0 She joins Robert A. Heinlein (1974), Jack Williamson=20
> (1975),
> >> >Clifford D. Simak (1976), L. Sprague de Camp (1978), Fritz Leiber
> >> (1981),
> >> >Andre Norton (1983), Arthur C. Clarke (1985), Isaac Asimov (1986),
> >> Alfred
> >> >Bester (1987), Ray Bradbury (1988), Lester del Rey (1990), Frederik
> >> Pohl
> >> >(1992), Damon Knight (1994), A. E. van Vogt (1995), Jack Vance
> >> (1996), Poul
> >> >Anderson (1997), Hal Clement (1998), Brian Aldiss (1999), and=20
> Philip
> >> Jose
> >> >Farmer (2000).
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
-----
The purpose of art is not the release of a momentary ejection of=20
adrenaline but rather the gradual, lifelong construction of a state of=20
wonder and serenity.
Glenn Gould
-----
Ian W. Riddell
iwriddell@charter.net


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From sentto-2266408-845-1042048222-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 09:50:36 2003
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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 10:50:11 -0700
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At 11:01 AM 1/8/03 -0600, you wrote:
>So LeGuin is the first woman accorded this honor? Wow.


??????


Andre Norton received this honor 20 years ago.





-=Fred=-

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  A single cicada's cry
    Sinking in to stone                            				              - Basho -

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From sentto-2266408-846-1042048562-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 09:56:10 2003
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At 11:35 AM 1/8/03 -0600, you wrote:

>On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 11:24  AM, David S. Bratman wrote:
>
>> At 09:01 AM 1/8/2003 , Ian W. Riddell wrote:
>> >So LeGuin is the first woman accorded this honor? Wow.
>>
>> Andre Norton is also a woman.
>>
>
>Ooops. I always wondered about that. Still, 2 out of 20 is not a great 
>ratio.


Considering the predominance in the past of male writers, I don't think
it's that bad of a ratio after all.  I'm surprised though that she wasn't
elected earlier.  

The Grand Master Award isn't presented for a couple of good books, but for
long years of excellent work in the field.  

I think CJ Cherryh is a good bet to make it.


 

-=Fred=-

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  A single cicada's cry
    Sinking in to stone                            				              - Basho -

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From sentto-2266408-847-1042048774-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 10:01:12 2003
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Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 09:59:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Fwd: SFWA Grand Master Announced
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True.  But don't forget that Grand Mastership by its nature reflects an
earlier state of the art.  Le Guin is, I believe, the first Grand Master
who began her science-fiction publishing career after 1960, and only the
fourth, at most, to begin it after 1950.

In earlier days most of the major authors were men: this is that sexist
world we've been spending most of the last 50 years trying to correct.
There were a few women of that era of comparable significance with the men,
like C.L. Moore and Leigh Brackett [note androgynous names, btw], but I
think they died before they could have come up for consideration (the Grand
Mastership is given only to living authors).

The other obvious living senior renowned women in science-fiction, Kate
Wilhelm and Anne McCaffrey, are no more senior than Le Guin, and, while
they would also be worthy recipients, it would violate everyone's sense of
proper significance for them to precede her.

In the next generation there are plenty of women, though.  And if you look
at the lists of recent Hugo and Nebula Award winners, you'll find plenty of
women in current science-fiction getting due recognition, future Grand
Masters aplenty.  I cannot imagine Connie Willis being anything other than
top of the list among writers who began in the late 1970s and 1980s, but
there are still older writers of equal worth ahead of her for a career award.

David Bratman


At 09:35 AM 1/8/2003 , Ian W. Riddell wrote:
>
>On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 11:24  AM, David S. Bratman wrote:
>
>> At 09:01 AM 1/8/2003 , Ian W. Riddell wrote:
>> >So LeGuin is the first woman accorded this honor? Wow.
>>
>> Andre Norton is also a woman.
>>
>
>Ooops. I always wondered about that. Still, 2 out of 20 is not a great 
>ratio.


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From sentto-2266408-848-1042050007-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Jan  8 10:20:12 2003
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Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 12:28:52 -0600
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: offer for books
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ok, but please write to the bookstore. and if this does't work out to your satisfaction, get back to me.  Point is, in my original e-mail opening this possible avenue, I included a short list of books that thery have, and this might help you in making your request.  I hate it that this is a cumbersome way to work out stuff, but please let's see if we can work this out. Caio, and Happy New Year!!

Darius Thieme
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: irrem 
  To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:10 PM
  Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: offer for books


  Well....I'm saying "Hi" ^.^
  As a foreigner, and living in a not english-speaking country, I find 
  often difficulties in the search of Le Guin books. I'm not sure if 
  the offer you made is so simple...but if it's even remotely possible, 
  count me on!I live in Italy, where Le Guin works aren't exactly 
  unknown, simply impossible to obtain (most of them were printed time 
  ago, and copies are hard to track)
  Paula
  --- In the-ekumen@y..., "MindSpring User" <dthiemepop@M...> wrote:
  > Hopefully some of you read my offer, copied onto our website by our 
  Webmaster.
  > Anyway, I'm going to repeat it here, and please RESPOND, say "hi", 
  make suggestions , so I'll know if should do more, less, forget it, 
  or whatever.
  > 
  > I frequent a good local bookstore, which almost always has some 
  LeGjuin works.
  > It just dawned on me the other day that maybe the owner would be 
  willing to ship.  The answer is yes. Her prices are reasonable: 
  averaging $2.50 for paperbacks. Also, they also have an e-mail 
  address.  I'm going there today, and I'll put together a list of some 
  of what they've got, just to give you an idea.
  > 
  > Also, I should say I was impressed with the very avid and 
  thoughtful readership on our website, that a few of you were 
  introspective readers, and some had difficulties getting books, owing 
  to the situation you were in (another country, inaccesible stores, 
  foreign exchange problems, etc.).  Maybe I might be willing to help 
  out in a few cases in some kind of way, like perhaps sending a few 
  books to you from the bookstore.  So, watch for my next message with 
  the bookstore list (asap).
  > 
  > Good reading to you!
  > Darius =====   ciao!
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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  the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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From sentto-2266408-851-1043811455-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Jan 28 19:37:42 2003
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Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:47:44 -0600
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: offer for books
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To "Irrem"
Please send me your e-mail address.  Tell me how I can help you. I just visited my favorite bookstore here in Nashville, and, despite my annuncements copied into the Yahoo webside for Ursula K LeGuin, the bookstore has not heard from a singe one of the LeGujin readers I was hoping to contact.  Again, here is their address:
    Bookman/ Bookwoman Used Books. 1715 21st Avenue South. 
    Nashville, TN 37212, or  http://www:bookmanbookwoman.com
    
 If they can't help you, please write to me again, and tell me how I can help.  
Yours truly --- Darius Thieme
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: irrem 
  To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 4:10 PM
  Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: offer for books


  Well....I'm saying "Hi" ^.^
  As a foreigner, and living in a not english-speaking country, I find 
  often difficulties in the search of Le Guin books. I'm not sure if 
  the offer you made is so simple...but if it's even remotely possible, 
  count me on!I live in Italy, where Le Guin works aren't exactly 
  unknown, simply impossible to obtain (most of them were printed time 
  ago, and copies are hard to track)
  Paula
  --- In the-ekumen@y..., "MindSpring User" <dthiemepop@M...> wrote:
  > Hopefully some of you read my offer, copied onto our website by our 
  Webmaster.
  > Anyway, I'm going to repeat it here, and please RESPOND, say "hi", 
  make suggestions , so I'll know if should do more, less, forget it, 
  or whatever.
  > 
  > I frequent a good local bookstore, which almost always has some 
  LeGjuin works.
  > It just dawned on me the other day that maybe the owner would be 
  willing to ship.  The answer is yes. Her prices are reasonable: 
  averaging $2.50 for paperbacks. Also, they also have an e-mail 
  address.  I'm going there today, and I'll put together a list of some 
  of what they've got, just to give you an idea.
  > 
  > Also, I should say I was impressed with the very avid and 
  thoughtful readership on our website, that a few of you were 
  introspective readers, and some had difficulties getting books, owing 
  to the situation you were in (another country, inaccesible stores, 
  foreign exchange problems, etc.).  Maybe I might be willing to help 
  out in a few cases in some kind of way, like perhaps sending a few 
  books to you from the bookstore.  So, watch for my next message with 
  the bookstore list (asap).
  > 
  > Good reading to you!
  > Darius =====   ciao!
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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From sentto-2266408-852-1044007137-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Fri Jan 31 01:58:58 2003
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Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 03:55:47 -0600
Subject: [the-ekumen] UKL contributes to Poets Against the War
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Dear Ekumenicals,

A member of The Kraken (the Russell Hoban online community, which I 
also moderate) just posted a link to a site called Poets Against the 
War, and mentioned that Ursula K. Le Guin has contributed a poem to 
the site.

Here's the link:
http://www.poetsagainstthewar.org/default.htm

Click on the link that says "Index of Poets" to find UKL's contribution.

Dave
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ocelot Factory:
http://www.ocelotfactory.com

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From sentto-2266408-853-1044643054-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Fri Feb  7 10:37:42 2003
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Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2003 13:30:43 -0500
Subject: [the-ekumen] LeGuin and MacLean honored by SFWA
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I'm not sure if this was announced here or not, so if I am duplicating
earlier posts, please excuse the repetition.  But I thought you would
all like to know: The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America
have chosen Ursula LeGuin to be our Grand Master this year and Katherine
MacLean to be our Author Emeritus.

The selection was made by the SFWA Board of Directors, in conjunction
with the living past presidents of SFWA.  Presentation of the awards
will be made during the Nebula Awards (R) Weekend in Philadelphia, April
18-20, 2003.

Ursula K. Le Guin, is best known as the author of The Dispossessed, The
Left Hand of Darkness, and the Earthsea tales.  Her career spans forty
years, beginning with the publication of "April in Paris," in Fantastic
(1962), and includes seventeen novels and numerous shorter works, as
well as many poems and critical essays.  Her work has won wide
recognition, garnering, among others, the PEN/Malamud Award for Short
Fiction, the James Tiptree Jr. Award, and the Sturgeon, as well as
multiple Nebula and Hugo awards.

Ms. Le Guin is the twentieth writer recognized by SFWA as a Grand
Master.  She joins Robert A. Heinlein (1974), Jack Williamson (1975),
Clifford D. Simak (1976), L. Sprague de Camp (1978), Fritz Leiber
(1981), Andre Norton (1983), Arthur C. Clarke (1985), Isaac Asimov
(1986), Alfred Bester (1987), Ray Bradbury (1988), Lester del Rey
(1990), Frederik Pohl (1992), Damon Knight (1994), A. E. van Vogt
(1995), Jack Vance (1996), Poul Anderson (1997), Hal Clement (1998),
Brian Aldiss (1999), and Philip Jose Farmer (2000).

---

Katherine MacLean will be joing SFWA as our guest at the Nebulas this
year.  One of the earliest women science fiction writers, she saw her
first story, "Defense Mechanism," published in Astounding Science
Fiction in 1949.  There followed a number of short stories, including
"Pictures Don't Lie," "The Snowball Effect," the "Hills of Space"
series, and 1971 Nebula Award® winner "The Missing Man."

Ms. MacLean's short stories have been collected in The Diploids and The
Trouble with You Earth People.  Her novels include Cosmic Checkmate,
Missing Man, and Dark Wing.

SFWA began its Author Emeritus program in 1995 as a way of recognizing
senior writers who have made significant contributions to our field.
Previous recipients include Emil Petaja, Wilson "Bob" Tucker, Judith
Merril, Nelson S. Bond, Philip Klass (William Tenn), Daniel Keyes, and
Robert Sheckley.

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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 17:04:44 -0500
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] LeGuin and MacLean honored by SFWA
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I found out today through my librarian-related email that LeGuin will give the May Hill Arbuthnot lecture in 2004!  Sendak is this year's lecturer this year, and I can't get there.  If anyone wants more info, go to the American Library Association webpage, http://www.ala.org, and follow likely links.  Or search Google.

                Jane

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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2003 14:17:34 -0800
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] LeGuin and MacLean honored by SFWA
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http://www.ala.org/news/v9n1/arbuthnot.html
and
http://www.ala.org/alsc/arbuth.html

the location of the lecture is based on an application process by 
(usually) public libraries who want to host it.

Heather

>I found out today through my librarian-related email that LeGuin 
>will give the May Hill Arbuthnot lecture in 2004!  Sendak is this 
>year's lecturer this year, and I can't get there.  If anyone wants 
>more info, go to the American Library Association webpage, 
>http://www.ala.org, and follow likely links.  Or search Google.
>
>                 Jane
-- 
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
heather whipple
heyiya@earthlink.net
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
It's a Broad Universe!
www.broaduniverse.org
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

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Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 01:18:41 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] discovering a story
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Since reading 'The Left Hand of Darkness' as part of my first year 
English course, I have always had a great fondness for LeGuin's 
writing but despite having read many of her stories, I was hoping 
someone more well versed in her world would be able to help to tell 
me the title of a single short story that I read years ago.  

It details how colonists on a new planet need to take medication in 
order to help their bodies adjust to the less than ideal 
enviromental conditions of their new home.  Some of the younger 
children who were born on the planet do not seem to respond to the 
medication amd slowly wither away until a teacher, by respoinding to 
one of these childerens paintings, realizes that it is the medicine 
that is causing the sickness as these individuals have already 
become accustomed to what is essentaially their true home.

I would be grateful for any help.

*the little spinner*



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Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:38:29 -0800
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"The Eye Altering," which is included in her collection, _The Compass Rose_.

Heather

>Since reading 'The Left Hand of Darkness' as part of my first year
>English course, I have always had a great fondness for LeGuin's
>writing but despite having read many of her stories, I was hoping
>someone more well versed in her world would be able to help to tell
>me the title of a single short story that I read years ago. 
>
>It details how colonists on a new planet need to take medication in
>order to help their bodies adjust to the less than ideal
>enviromental conditions of their new home.  Some of the younger
>children who were born on the planet do not seem to respond to the
>medication amd slowly wither away until a teacher, by respoinding to
>one of these childerens paintings, realizes that it is the medicine
>that is causing the sickness as these individuals have already
>become accustomed to what is essentaially their true home.
>
>I would be grateful for any help.
>
>*the little spinner*
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


-- 
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
It's a Broad Universe!
http://www.broaduniverse.org
Heather Whipple, motherboarder
web@broaduniverse.org

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WOW! you deserve points for such a timely response.  It's like having a international literary swot team :-).  
Thankyou...I can now direct a friend of mine to the relevant story so that someone else can be touched a little by Ursula.
 heather w <heyiya@earthlink.net> wrote:"The Eye Altering," which is included in her collection, _The Compass Rose_.

Heather

>Since reading 'The Left Hand of Darkness' as part of my first year
>English course, I have always had a great fondness for LeGuin's
>writing but despite having read many of her stories, I was hoping
>someone more well versed in her world would be able to help to tell
>me the title of a single short story that I read years ago. 
>
>It details how colonists on a new planet need to take medication in
>order to help their bodies adjust to the less than ideal
>enviromental conditions of their new home.  Some of the younger
>children who were born on the planet do not seem to respond to the
>medication amd slowly wither away until a teacher, by respoinding to
>one of these childerens paintings, realizes that it is the medicine
>that is causing the sickness as these individuals have already
>become accustomed to what is essentaially their true home.
>
>I would be grateful for any help.
>
>*the little spinner*
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
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-- 
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From sentto-2266408-859-1045959569-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sat Feb 22 16:19:36 2003
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Although usually avoiding any specific political references, 
especially in her stories, le Guin made her intense feelings against 
the American involvement in Vietnam very clear in her novel 'The 
Word for World is Forest'.  Does anyone know if she has made any 
statement about recent American war mongering?


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From sentto-2266408-860-1045978014-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sat Feb 22 21:27:01 2003
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Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2003 18:23:43 +1300
Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] ART AND POLITICS
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Recent posts to this list:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Awl [mailto:dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com]
> Sent: Friday, 31 January 2003 10:56 p.m.
> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [the-ekumen] UKL contributes to Poets Against the War
> 
> 
> Dear Ekumenicals,
> 
> A member of The Kraken (the Russell Hoban online community, which I 
> also moderate) just posted a link to a site called Poets Against the 
> War, and mentioned that Ursula K. Le Guin has contributed a poem to 
> the site.
> 
> Here's the link:
> http://www.poetsagainstthewar.org/default.htm
> 
> Click on the link that says "Index of Poets" to find UKL's contribution.

AND

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janice E. Dawley [mailto:jdawley@bellatlantic.net]
> Sent: Friday, 10 January 2003 7:23 a.m.
> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [the-ekumen] Ursula Le Guin Leads March to Present Petition
> Against War on Iraq
> 
> 
> "Taking part in a weekly peace rally hosted by the Portland Peaceful 
> Response Coalition, Ms. Le Guin led a group of fifty protesters from 
> Portland's Pioneer Square to the office of congressman David Wu. 
> There Ms. 
> Le Guin expressed her gratitude for Wu's principled vote against the war 
> and urged that the congressman continue to do all that he could to stop 
> what would be a senseless and bloody invasion."
> 
> More at http://www.douglaslain.com/aawii.html
> and 
> http://portland.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=37067&group=webcast
> 
> -----
> Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT

Aquila

"Nothing here is real"


> -----Original Message-----
> From: pearlemperor <pearlemperor@yahoo.co.uk>
> [mailto:pearlemperor@yahoo.co.uk]
> Sent: Sunday, 23 February 2003 1:19 p.m.
> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [the-ekumen] ART AND POLITICS
> 
> 
> Although usually avoiding any specific political references, 
> especially in her stories, le Guin made her intense feelings against 
> the American involvement in Vietnam very clear in her novel 'The 
> Word for World is Forest'.  Does anyone know if she has made any 
> statement about recent American war mongering?
 

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From sentto-2266408-861-1046030650-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sun Feb 23 12:04:15 2003
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pearlemperor <pearlemperor@yahoo.co.uk> scripsit:
> Although usually avoiding any specific political references, 
> especially in her stories, le Guin made her intense feelings against 
> the American involvement in Vietnam very clear in her novel 'The 
> Word for World is Forest'.  Does anyone know if she has made any 
> statement about recent American war mongering?

Look her up at http://www.poetsagainstthewar.com

-- 
John Cowan           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@ccil.org
To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all.  There
are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
        --_The Hobbit_

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From sentto-2266408-863-1046576918-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sat Mar  1 19:48:46 2003
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From: "peterrideout <rideout@ntl.sympatico.ca>" <rideout@ntl.sympatico.ca>
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Hello to all. Peter here. I'm a new member, but long-time fan (since 
the mid 70s)of Le Guin ,and I was hoping someone out there could 
help me settle a dispute about the short story MAZES. (Compass Rose; 
Buffalo Girls) My neice is studying this excellent piece in a high 
school English class, and happened to ask for my thoughts on it. 
Upon re-reading it, I told her that first of all, the 
narrator/prisoner is an alien, and the captor (referred to by the 
narrator as an "alien") is a human scientist. This seemed very 
obvious to me, and my wife and even my nine-year old daughter, who 
each read the story later, were in agreement. 
I also concluded that Le Guin was making a statement about the 
different types of "intelligence," and questioning human ability to 
recognize alternate forms of sentience, without leaping to imperfect 
conclusions based upon the limited evidence proffered by our senses 
and particular way of viewing reality. (Whew! In other words, don't 
judge by appearances.)
The problem is, my neice's teacher, and the rest of her class, are 
maintaining that the captive is a human, and its 'tormentor' an 
alien. 
I don't wish to try to prove my point here (because that could be 
seen as an attempt to impart a bias), but to hear from someone who 
is familiar with MAZES, and can offer an outside take on the 
matter.  (The story is only a few pages long.) I would particularly 
appreciate an opinion from anyone who may have taught/been taught 
MAZES, either in university, or high school. 
Thanks, and glad to join you,
P. G. Rideout, Iffish, Canada



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peterrideout <rideout@ntl.sympatico.ca> scripsit:

> The problem is, my neice's teacher, and the rest of her class, are 
> maintaining that the captive is a human, and its 'tormentor' an 
> alien. 

I have always assumed that the captive was a sentient rat, and its
tormentor a human psychologist who, of course, does not know that rats
are sentient.

-- 
John Cowan           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@ccil.org
To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all.  There
are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
        --_The Hobbit_

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Hi Gabby

Thank you . I will put with the submissions that we have received so far. 

How is life with you ?

L&L
David

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Cowan 
  To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 6:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Hello from a new member, and argument to settle


  peterrideout <rideout@ntl.sympatico.ca> scripsit:

  > The problem is, my neice's teacher, and the rest of her class, are 
  > maintaining that the captive is a human, and its 'tormentor' an 
  > alien. 

  I have always assumed that the captive was a sentient rat, and its
  tormentor a human psychologist who, of course, does not know that rats
  are sentient.

  -- 
  John Cowan           http://www.ccil.org/~cowan              cowan@ccil.org
  To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all.  There
  are no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language
  that they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful.
          --_The Hobbit_

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From sentto-2266408-865-1046596397-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sun Mar  2 01:13:18 2003
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Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 22:10:05 +1300
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Does one of the two have to be human?

Aquila

"Nothing here is real"


> -----Original Message-----
> From: peterrideout <rideout@ntl.sympatico.ca>
> [mailto:rideout@ntl.sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Sunday, 2 March 2003 4:13 p.m.
> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [the-ekumen] Hello from a new member, and argument to settle
> 
> 
> Hello to all. Peter here. I'm a new member, but long-time fan (since 
> the mid 70s)of Le Guin ,and I was hoping someone out there could 
> help me settle a dispute about the short story MAZES. (Compass Rose; 
> Buffalo Girls) My neice is studying this excellent piece in a high 
> school English class, and happened to ask for my thoughts on it. 
> Upon re-reading it, I told her that first of all, the 
> narrator/prisoner is an alien, and the captor (referred to by the 
> narrator as an "alien") is a human scientist. This seemed very 
> obvious to me, and my wife and even my nine-year old daughter, who 
> each read the story later, were in agreement. 
> The problem is, my neice's teacher, and the rest of her class, are 
> maintaining that the captive is a human, and its 'tormentor' an 
> alien. 
> I don't wish to try to prove my point here (because that could be 
> seen as an attempt to impart a bias), but to hear from someone who 
> is familiar with MAZES, and can offer an outside take on the 
> matter.  (The story is only a few pages long.) I would particularly 
> appreciate an opinion from anyone who may have taught/been taught 
> MAZES, either in university, or high school. 
> Thanks, and glad to join you,
> P. G. Rideout, Iffish, Canada
 

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From sentto-2266408-867-1046623761-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sun Mar  2 08:49:40 2003
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Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 10:48:40 -0600
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>Hello to all. Peter here. I'm a new member, but long-time fan (since
>the mid 70s)of Le Guin ,and I was hoping someone out there could
>help me settle a dispute about the short story MAZES. (Compass Rose;
>Buffalo Girls) My neice is studying this excellent piece in a high
>school English class, and happened to ask for my thoughts on it.
>Upon re-reading it, I told her that first of all, the
>narrator/prisoner is an alien, and the captor (referred to by the
>narrator as an "alien") is a human scientist. This seemed very
>obvious to me, and my wife and even my nine-year old daughter, who
>each read the story later, were in agreement.
>I also concluded that Le Guin was making a statement about the
>different types of "intelligence," and questioning human ability to
>recognize alternate forms of sentience, without leaping to imperfect
>conclusions based upon the limited evidence proffered by our senses
>and particular way of viewing reality. (Whew! In other words, don't
>judge by appearances.)
>The problem is, my neice's teacher, and the rest of her class, are
>maintaining that the captive is a human, and its 'tormentor' an
>alien.
>I don't wish to try to prove my point here (because that could be
>seen as an attempt to impart a bias), but to hear from someone who
>is familiar with MAZES, and can offer an outside take on the
>matter.  (The story is only a few pages long.) I would particularly
>appreciate an opinion from anyone who may have taught/been taught
>MAZES, either in university, or high school.
>Thanks, and glad to join you,

    The narrator eats live "greenbud leaves";
    Builds mazes;
    Communicates kinesthetically, through motion and dance
    Has a complex culture
    May not be able to hear (it never reports any auditory sensations)
    Is implied to have eyes, mouth, four legs and grasping hands
    Is aware of "fish".

    The "alien" is gigantic compared to the narrator
    Is bipedal
    Has grasping hands
    Builds mazes
    Communicates verbally (this is implied)

    The "alien" is presumably human or human-like; the narrator is 
clearly *not* human, is in the position of a lab rat but is not a rat 
(I envision something more monkey-like), and the implied deafness 
(which I notice for the first time in rereading this story) suggest 
that it is really unlike any animal of earth. 

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From sentto-2266408-868-1046629724-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sun Mar  2 10:28:48 2003
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In her intro in my edition of Buffalo Gals Leguin says: 

"Mazes" is not about rats. Perhaps what confuses people in Mazes is that the 
character called 'the alien' is from what we call 'the earth' and the other 
one isn't.

I personally feel that "who" the two are meant to be is entirely irrelevant 
to the story I entirely agree with Peter on what it is really "about" our 
perceptions of intelligence and the difficulty in perception between cultures 
that are alien to one another. It's also such a well imagined story with the 
details about the alien's culture of mazes and whole body communication. She 
is such a wonderful writer!!!
Rachel


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From sentto-2266408-869-1046665740-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sun Mar  2 20:29:08 2003
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Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 04:28:58 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Thanks for all the replies!
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Peter here again. 
Thanks to all for your thoughts on MAZES. I agree with David Salo 
that the alien/captive is a monkey-like sentient creature. That it 
seems to be deaf is also evidenced by its failure to mention 
auditory input when its captor apparently attempts to "communicate 
labially."
It seems to be from a non-technological culture: The apparent 
electical shock "punishment" from pushing the wrong button - earth 
animals have been tested this way - is referred to not as a "shock," 
but as "a nasty sensation," and it describes its prison as being 
made "of an alien substance," instead of its familiar "packed clay;" 
note that it does not use words such as "metallic" or "glassy" to 
describe its new environment.
That the very atmosphere of that environment ("this heavy, foreign 
air") is gradually killing it, also point to the creature's coming 
from a different world that that of the scientist/captor, and not 
being, as suggested elsewhere, a terrestrial rat. This latter stance 
is further defended by the fact that the picked food (as opposed to 
growing) provided for the creature is poison to it - rats have no 
such problem digesting non-living food.
I also agree with the suggestion made by another Ekumen member:  
neither of the story's two characters needs be human. Nonetheless, I 
also believe that the scientist/jailor is enough like a human to 
serve as a warning to us not to arrogantly assume that ours is the 
only type of intelligence, or higher communication, to be found - 
either on our own planet, or others we may eventually reach.
Readers interested in reading another fine Le Guin story with a 
similar theme about the nature of communication, and the possibility 
of alternate "animal" or even vegetable intelligences, are urged to 
re-read "The Author of the Acacia Seeds," also found in "The Compass 
Rose."  
Again, thanks to all for this opportunity to discuss one of our 
finest modern authors, and to support my stance on the story.
Goodbye from Iffish (weather fine, if a bit foggy),
Peter Rideout


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From sentto-2266408-870-1046667183-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sun Mar  2 20:53:10 2003
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Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:49:51 +1300
Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] Hello from a new member, and argument to settle
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I remember thinking of the captive as being slightly ant or other social
insect like - possibly I was sub consciously thinking of bees dancing to
communicate.

Aquila

"Nothing here is real"


> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Salo [mailto:dsalo@softhome.net]
>     The narrator eats live "greenbud leaves";
>     Builds mazes;
>     Communicates kinesthetically, through motion and dance
>     Has a complex culture
>     May not be able to hear (it never reports any auditory sensations)
>     Is implied to have eyes, mouth, four legs and grasping hands
>     Is aware of "fish".
>
>     The "alien" is gigantic compared to the narrator
>     Is bipedal
>     Has grasping hands
>     Builds mazes
>     Communicates verbally (this is implied)
>
>     The "alien" is presumably human or human-like; the narrator is
> clearly *not* human, is in the position of a lab rat but is not a rat
> (I envision something more monkey-like), and the implied deafness
> (which I notice for the first time in rereading this story) suggest
> that it is really unlike any animal of earth.



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From sentto-2266408-871-1046737046-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Mar  3 16:17:34 2003
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I had thought that the being in the maze was a lab rat.  I recall 
that the scientist who I believe is human feeds the captive pellets 
that do not nourish it.  I definately feel that the creature is a 
mammal and that there is nothing intergalactic in the word alien, 
that is why it is interesting, i believe that there is another story 
written in the compass rose collection that is about animal 
communication.  Messages left by ants in acacia seeds, pequins 
dancing and communicating through movement.  I also think that this 
story was written during the seventies when there was alot of 
experimentation being done to communicate with animals, sign 
language and chimps and the like.  Anyway that's my very inexper 
take on the tale.  



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From sentto-2266408-872-1046858323-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 01:58:44 2003
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I do not believe that rats would have a problem with eating 'picked leaves'
(being pretty omnivorous) or communicate by dancing (though who can say).
Surely it is a metaphor on a lab rat but I always thought that the
scientists were human and the 'rat' alien - interested in the view that
neither need be human. Also interested in the fact that some had envisaged a
monkey like creature - amthropomorphisation?  Personally I always envisaged
a thinking rodent like creature - my own thinking straightjacket in the rat
direction.
Some other good stories on the lab animal theme - 'Mrs Frisby & the Rats of
NIMH' and 'Flowers for Algernon.'
Hannah
----- Original Message -----
From: <nod__narb@hotmail.com>
To: <the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 12:04 AM
Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Hello from a new member, and argument to settle


> I had thought that the being in the maze was a lab rat.  I recall
> that the scientist who I believe is human feeds the captive pellets
> that do not nourish it.  I definately feel that the creature is a
> mammal and that there is nothing intergalactic in the word alien,
> that is why it is interesting, i believe that there is another story
> written in the compass rose collection that is about animal
> communication.  Messages left by ants in acacia seeds, pequins
> dancing and communicating through movement.  I also think that this
> story was written during the seventies when there was alot of
> experimentation being done to communicate with animals, sign
> language and chimps and the like.  Anyway that's my very inexper
> take on the tale.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>



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From sentto-2266408-873-1046893024-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Mar  5 11:37:10 2003
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Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:36:55 EST
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About the lab animal debate:
Isn't it wonderful that there's so many different readings of the same story? 
 And isn't it difficult to break out of the mold and see the "alien" as 
something truly alien?  Could the story be saying that we're all someone's 
alien?  Judy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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judyldubois@aol.com writes: 

> About the lab animal debate:
> Isn't it wonderful that there's so many different readings of the same story? 
>  And isn't it difficult to break out of the mold and see the "alien" as 
> something truly alien?  Could the story be saying that we're all someone's 
> alien?  Judy

  Aren't we often alien to each other?  Many people feel that, although they 
try to express their deepest feelings through art or music or language or 
other means, there is an "alien" world out there that never seems able to 
comprehend the modes by which those feelings are expressed. 

                                                              David

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From sentto-2266408-875-1046992227-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu Mar  6 15:10:33 2003
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Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 23:10:26 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Digest Number 315
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--- In the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com, dsalo@s... wrote:
> judyldubois@a... writes: 
> 
> > About the lab animal debate:
> > Isn't it wonderful that there's so many different readings of 
the same story? 
> >  And isn't it difficult to break out of the mold and see 
the "alien" as 
> > something truly alien?  Could the story be saying that we're all 
someone's 
> > alien?  Judy
> 
>   Aren't we often alien to each other?  Many people feel that, 
although they 
> try to express their deepest feelings through art or music or 
language or 
> other means, there is an "alien" world out there that never seems 
able to 
> comprehend the modes by which those feelings are expressed. 
> 
>Peter here. Such is the burden of self-awareness: We're all alone 
together. 
I wonder what the member of a telepathic society would feel 
like.                                                               
David


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Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 23:10:57 -0000
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--- In the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com, dsalo@s... wrote:
> judyldubois@a... writes: 
> 
> > About the lab animal debate:
> > Isn't it wonderful that there's so many different readings of 
the same story? 
> >  And isn't it difficult to break out of the mold and see 
the "alien" as 
> > something truly alien?  Could the story be saying that we're all 
someone's 
> > alien?  Judy
> 
>   Aren't we often alien to each other?  Many people feel that, 
although they 
> try to express their deepest feelings through art or music or 
language or 
> other means, there is an "alien" world out there that never seems 
able to 
> comprehend the modes by which those feelings are expressed. 
> 
>Peter here. Such is the burden of self-awareness: We're all alone 
together. 
I wonder what the member of a telepathic society would feel 
like.                                                               
David


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I haven't read the story in a while, but I just wanted to say that one of the reasons Ursula LeGuin is such a great writer is that many of her stories touch on so many different levels at the same time....the main theme could be pointing out the arrogance (ignorance?) humans so often show, being the master race and all,  but has also inspired in a lot of you other, deeper themes, such as us all being someone's alien, or how we are "all alone together", something a friend and I were just discussing. I went looking at my local Barnes and Noble to add another book by one of my favorite authors to my "library", and all the ones they had for sale, I already had! Such a shame. Her writing seems so under appreciated to me, at least by the people I know (read-my "peers", favorite reading material being "Cosmo" or "Maxim") Talk about being an alien! Erica 
peterrideout <rideout@ntl.sympatico.ca> wrote: --- In the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com, dsalo@s... wrote:
> judyldubois@a... writes: 
> 
> > About the lab animal debate:
> > Isn't it wonderful that there's so many different readings of 
the same story? 
> >  And isn't it difficult to break out of the mold and see 
the "alien" as 
> > something truly alien?  Could the story be saying that we're all 
someone's 
> > alien?  Judy
> 
>   Aren't we often alien to each other?  Many people feel that, 
although they 
> try to express their deepest feelings through art or music or 
language or 
> other means, there is an "alien" world out there that never seems 
able to 
> comprehend the modes by which those feelings are expressed. 
> 
>Peter here. Such is the burden of self-awareness: We're all alone 
together. 
I wonder what the member of a telepathic society would feel 
like.                                                               
David


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From sentto-2266408-878-1047140943-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sat Mar  8 08:29:24 2003
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In a message dated 3/7/2003 5:04:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com writes:


> We're all alone 
> together. 
> I wonder what the member of a telepathic society would feel like.


This makes me think of an old favorite story "Nine Lives" from The Winds 
Twelve Quarters. It's about a clone group who essentially are telepathic, 
they are like 10 of the same person and form their own exclusive society. 
When 9 are killed in an accident the remaining cannot understand how 
"singletons" can function, how you can relate to someone who is not your 
self. He is answered "I don't know, it's practice, partly. We're each of us 
alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?"
Rachel 

>                                                                
> 



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From sentto-2266408-879-1048026694-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 14:31:40 2003
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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:34:15 +0100
Subject: [the-ekumen] A Vanished Dragon
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Well, not really a vanished dragon, but rather a vanished website called The Dragon Of Solea guide to Earthsea. Does anybody know where did it disappear to? Is it still online somewhere? The URL used to be http://web.a-znet.com/ganieda/earthsea/earthsea7about.htm but it's not working anymore.

And by the way I'm new here. So hello everybody!

Oren

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From sentto-2266408-880-1048030010-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 15:26:56 2003
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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 15:27:24 -0800
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] A Vanished Dragon
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At 01:34 PM 3/18/2003 , Oren wrote:
>Well, not really a vanished dragon, but rather a vanished website called The 
>Dragon Of Solea guide to Earthsea. Does anybody know where did it disappear 
>to? Is it still online somewhere? The URL used to be 
>http://web.a-znet.com/ganieda/earthsea/earthsea7about.htm but it's not 
>working anymore.

You could try looking it up via the Wayback Machine at
<http://www.archive.org/>

That's what I did.  I recall having seen it before.  I didn't think it was
very good, sorry.

Oh, and welcome to the list!

- David Bratman


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From sentto-2266408-881-1048031789-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Mar 18 15:56:38 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:55:25 +0100
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Thank you very much David! I wasn't aware there's such a project archiving the entire Internet. Quite impressive!

Thanks,

Oren
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David S. Bratman 
  To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 12:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] A Vanished Dragon


  At 01:34 PM 3/18/2003 , Oren wrote:
  >Well, not really a vanished dragon, but rather a vanished website called The 
  >Dragon Of Solea guide to Earthsea. Does anybody know where did it disappear 
  >to? Is it still online somewhere? The URL used to be 
  >http://web.a-znet.com/ganieda/earthsea/earthsea7about.htm but it's not 
  >working anymore.

  You could try looking it up via the Wayback Machine at
  <http://www.archive.org/>

  That's what I did.  I recall having seen it before.  I didn't think it was
  very good, sorry.

  Oh, and welcome to the list!

  - David Bratman


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Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 08:51:25 -0600
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] LHOD on Sci Fi Channel
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WELLL---O.K. What have I missed? Are you referring to an ULG broadcast that I don't know about? 
Thanks for wny info. Darius Thieme
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Susan Armstrong 
  To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 11:36 PM
  Subject: [the-ekumen] LHOD on Sci Fi Channel


  Hi all.

  Does anyone know the broadcast date yet?

  - Susan

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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:52:35 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Leguin Live on KBOO Monday, March 31, 10PM-Midnight
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A LeGuin special on KBOO community radio in Portland, Oregon:

THE TALKING EARTH SPECIAL
Monday, March 31, 10PM-Midnight
Poetry, stories, and an interview with Ursula K. LeGuin, live in the 
studio, with Barbara La Morticella. 

Listen to it live via the web on the Shoutcast server:
http://www.shoutcast.com/directory/?s=kboo

-- 
with solidarity
Takver
 Peace protests in Melbourne, Australia
   http://www.users.bigpond.com/Takver/soapbox/index.htm 
 Radical Tradition, an anarchist and radical Australasian History 
Page  
   http://www.takver.com/history/index.htm 
 Visit Anarres Books -  http://www.anarres.org.au




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From sentto-2266408-886-1049128150-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Mar 31 08:29:16 2003
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:30:08 +0100
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Leguin Live on KBOO Monday, March 31, 10PM-Midnight
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erm...anyone know an easy way to convert into local time in different parts
of the globe?
Hannah
----- Original Message -----
From: "takver_oz" <shevek@bigpond.com>
To: <the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:52 PM
Subject: [the-ekumen] Leguin Live on KBOO Monday, March 31, 10PM-Midnight


> A LeGuin special on KBOO community radio in Portland, Oregon:
>
> THE TALKING EARTH SPECIAL
> Monday, March 31, 10PM-Midnight
> Poetry, stories, and an interview with Ursula K. LeGuin, live in the
> studio, with Barbara La Morticella.
>
> Listen to it live via the web on the Shoutcast server:
> http://www.shoutcast.com/directory/?s=kboo
>
> --
> with solidarity
> Takver
>  Peace protests in Melbourne, Australia
>    http://www.users.bigpond.com/Takver/soapbox/index.htm
>  Radical Tradition, an anarchist and radical Australasian History
> Page
>    http://www.takver.com/history/index.htm
>  Visit Anarres Books -  http://www.anarres.org.au
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>



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From sentto-2266408-887-1049193942-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Apr  1 02:47:05 2003
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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 09:31:25 +0200
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Leguin Live on KBOO Monday, March 31, 10PM-Midnight
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http://www.worldtimezone.com/ might be a place to look...

hth

/per
---------------------------------------------------
Per Ostberg  / per.ostberg@labmed.hs.sll.se
phone +46-8-58581213 / mob +46-70-4840253
fax +46-8-58587710
Huddinge University Hospital
LabMedicin-IT / C1 52 / S-141 86  HUDDINGE / SWEDEN
---------------------------------------------------=20

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: robins [mailto:robins@clara.co.uk]
Skickat: den 31 mars 2003 18:30
Till: the-ekumen
Kopia: robins
=C4mne: Re: [the-ekumen] Leguin Live on KBOO Monday, March 31,=20
10PM-Midnight


erm...anyone know an easy way to convert into local time in different=20
parts
of the globe?
Hannah


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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From sentto-2266408-888-1049404977-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu Apr  3 13:23:03 2003
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Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 22:14:56 +0100
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Leguin Live on KBOO Monday, March 31, 10PM-Midnight
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unfortunately, didn't see this in time to use - don't suppose anyone was
able to download the programme and could share it with the rest of us?
----- Original Message -----
From: <Per.Ostberg@labmed.hs.sll.se>
To: <the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Leguin Live on KBOO Monday, March 31,
10PM-Midnight


http://www.worldtimezone.com/ might be a place to look...

hth

/per
---------------------------------------------------
Per Ostberg  / per.ostberg@labmed.hs.sll.se
phone +46-8-58581213 / mob +46-70-4840253
fax +46-8-58587710
Huddinge University Hospital
LabMedicin-IT / C1 52 / S-141 86  HUDDINGE / SWEDEN
---------------------------------------------------

-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Från: robins [mailto:robins@clara.co.uk]
Skickat: den 31 mars 2003 18:30
Till: the-ekumen
Kopia: robins
Ämne: Re: [the-ekumen] Leguin Live on KBOO Monday, March 31,
10PM-Midnight


erm...anyone know an easy way to convert into local time in different
parts
of the globe?
Hannah


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From sentto-2266408-889-1049866325-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Apr  8 22:32:14 2003
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Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 00:47:09 -0500
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Leguin Live on KBOO Monday, March 31, 10PM-Midnight
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The best way is to use GMT (Greenwich Mean Time). Check it out on the www if you don't know how -- it's really very easy.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Robins- one of 
  To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 11:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Leguin Live on KBOO Monday, March 31, 10PM-Midnight


  erm...anyone know an easy way to convert into local time in different parts
  of the globe?
  Hannah
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "takver_oz" <shevek@bigpond.com>
  To: <the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 4:52 PM
  Subject: [the-ekumen] Leguin Live on KBOO Monday, March 31, 10PM-Midnight


  > A LeGuin special on KBOO community radio in Portland, Oregon:
  >
  > THE TALKING EARTH SPECIAL
  > Monday, March 31, 10PM-Midnight
  > Poetry, stories, and an interview with Ursula K. LeGuin, live in the
  > studio, with Barbara La Morticella.
  >
  > Listen to it live via the web on the Shoutcast server:
  > http://www.shoutcast.com/directory/?s=kboo
  >
  > --
  > with solidarity
  > Takver
  >  Peace protests in Melbourne, Australia
  >    http://www.users.bigpond.com/Takver/soapbox/index.htm
  >  Radical Tradition, an anarchist and radical Australasian History
  > Page
  >    http://www.takver.com/history/index.htm
  >  Visit Anarres Books -  http://www.anarres.org.au
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
  > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
  >
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >



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From sentto-2266408-890-1050649239-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Fri Apr 18 00:00:42 2003
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Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:55:56 +1200
Subject: [the-ekumen] FW: 2003 Hugo Award Nominations
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The 2003 Hugo Award Nominations

Nominations for the Best Novel Category
(621 people submitted nominations for 219 novels)

Bones of the Earth by Michael Swanwick (Eos)
Hominids by Robert J. Sawyer (Analog 1-4/02; Tor)
Kiln People by David Brin (Tor)
The Scar by China Mieville (Macmillan; Del Rey)
The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Stanley Robinson
(Bantam)

Nominations for the Best Novella Category
(374 people submitted nominations for 65 novellas. Six
nominees due
to a fifth place tie)

A Year in the Linear City by Paul Di Filippo (PS
Publishing)
"Breathmoss" by Ian R. MacLeod (Asimov's 5/02)
"Bronte's Egg" by Richard Chwedyk (F&SF 8/02)
Coraline by Neil Gaiman (HarperCollins)
"In Spirit" by Pat Forde (Analog 9/02)
"The Political Officer" by Charles Coleman Finlay
(F&SF 4/02)

Nominations for the Best Novelette Category
(377 people submitted nominations for 149 novelettes)

"Halo" by Charles Stross (Asimov's 6/02)
"Liking What You See: A Documentary" by Ted Chiang
(Stories of
Your Life and Others; Tor)
"Presence" by Maureen F. McHugh (F&SF 3/02)
"Slow Life" by Michael Swanwick (Analog 12/02)
"The Wild Girls" by Ursula K. Le Guin (Asimov's 3/02)

Nominations for the Best Short Story Category
(400 people submitted nominations for 263 short
stories)

"A Gift of Verse" by John L. Flynn (Nexxus Fall 2002)
"Creation" by Jeffrey Ford (F&SF 5/02)
"Falling Onto Mars" by Geoffrey A. Landis (Analog
7-8/02)
"'Hello,' Said the Stick" by Michael Swanwick (Analog
3/02)
"The Little Cat Laughed to See Such Sport" by Michael
Swanwick
(Asimov's 10-11/02)




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From sentto-2266408-891-1051239875-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu Apr 24 20:04:45 2003
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Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:04:18 EDT
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] FW: 2003 Hugo Award Nominations
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Can anyone explain to me the difference between a novella and a novelette?
=======================

In a message dated 04/18/2003 3:04:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
aquila1@ihug.co.nz writes:


> The 2003 Hugo Award Nominations
> 
> Nominations for the Best Novel Category
> (621 people submitted nominations for 219 novels)
> 
> Bones of the Earth by Michael Swanwick (Eos)
> Hominids by Robert J. Sawyer (Analog 1-4/02; Tor)
> Kiln People by David Brin (Tor)
> The Scar by China Mieville (Macmillan; Del Rey)
> The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Stanley Robinson
> (Bantam)
> 
> Nominations for the Best Novella Category
> (374 people submitted nominations for 65 novellas. Six
> nominees due
> to a fifth place tie)
> 
> A Year in the Linear City by Paul Di Filippo (PS
> Publishing)
> "Breathmoss" by Ian R. MacLeod (Asimov's 5/02)
> "Bronte's Egg" by Richard Chwedyk (F&SF 8/02)
> Coraline by Neil Gaiman (HarperCollins)
> "In Spirit" by Pat Forde (Analog 9/02)
> "The Political Officer" by Charles Coleman Finlay
> (F&SF 4/02)
> 
> Nominations for the Best Novelette Category
> (377 people submitted nominations for 149 novelettes)
> 
> "Halo" by Charles Stross (Asimov's 6/02)
> "Liking What You See: A Documentary" by Ted Chiang
> (Stories of
> Your Life and Others; Tor)
> "Presence" by Maureen F. McHugh (F&SF 3/02)
> "Slow Life" by Michael Swanwick (Analog 12/02)
> "The Wild Girls" by Ursula K. Le Guin (Asimov's 3/02)
> 
> Nominations for the Best Short Story Category
> (400 people submitted nominations for 263 short
> stories)
> 
> "A Gift of Verse" by John L. Flynn (Nexxus Fall 2002)
> "Creation" by Jeffrey Ford (F&SF 5/02)
> "Falling Onto Mars" by Geoffrey A. Landis (Analog
> 7-8/02)
> "'Hello,' Said the Stick" by Michael Swanwick (Analog
> 3/02)
> "The Little Cat Laughed to See Such Sport" by Michael
> Swanwick
> (Asimov's 10-11/02)
> 
> 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From sentto-2266408-892-1051246636-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu Apr 24 21:57:25 2003
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rubykaye@aol.com scripsit:
> Can anyone explain to me the difference between a novella and a novelette?

Length, pure and simple.   Short stories are up to 10K words, novelettes
up to 20K, novellas up to 40K, novels are anything bigger. (I may have
one or more of the numbers wrong.)

-- 
John Cowan  jcowan@reutershealth.com  www.ccil.org/~cowan  www.reutershealth.com
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing
on my shoulders."
        --Hal Abelson

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From sentto-2266408-893-1051248458-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu Apr 24 22:27:46 2003
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At 11:04 PM 4/24/2003 EDT, you wrote:
>Can anyone explain to me the difference between a novella and a novelette?

I don't have the exact figures, but a novelette is shorter than a novella.
-=Fred=-

There, where the skylark's
  Singing crosses the cuckoo's
     Dark song, there am I.
        - Kyorai -

email: fredr@gci-net.com  


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From sentto-2266408-898-1052004753-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sat May  3 16:32:40 2003
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I really like her collections of short stories. I read "Very Far Away from Anywhere Else" when I was about 12, and have re-read it periodically over and over since then, not really sci-fi or fantasy, and although meant (maybe?) for a younger reader, I still consider it one of my favorites...as you probably gather from all the varied responses you got, just about anything she's written is good!


Roddy Graham <roddy.graham@virgin.net> wrote:
On Friday, May 2, 2003, at 05:33 PM, Steph wrote:

> Hi, I just thought I'd write a quick post to introduce myself.
>
> I joined this group because, although I've never read anything else
> by Ursula Le Guin, when I was about ten I read the Earthsea quartet
> and I've read it and re-read it periodically ever since. They were
> the most beautiful books I'd ever read and looking back on it from an
> older person's vantage point, a lot of the way I think has come from
> the reading of those books and a lot of my personal beliefs, too.

That seems to be a something many of this group have in common. 
Although maybe it's the other way round; being a Yin person means you 
end up reading Le Guin, rather than the books leading you that way...

>  I'd love to read something else by her. Maybe someone could give me 
> some
> suggestions?

"Four Ways to Forgiveness" is a good one, and very likely easily 
available. It is a suite of four stories set in the Ekumen milieu, 
which is Le Guin's other substantial creation. Another good one, also 
an Ekumen story, is "The Dispossessed", which - for me at least - like 
the Earthsea stories, bears repeated reading.

chiz chiz

rdg


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From owner-feministsf-lit@UIC.EDU  Wed May  7 17:52:02 2003
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Subject: [*FSF-L*] Broad Universe membership news
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Broad Universe is an organization with the primary goal of celebrating
and promoting science fiction, fantasy, and horror written by women.
Anyone excited about that project is welcome to join us.
http://www.broaduniverse.org

Become A BU Member!

Broad Universe is ready to take the next step in its continuing quest
to celebrate and promote women in science fiction, fantasy and
horror. Beginning at Wiscon, May 23-26, 2003, we'll be selling
memberships in BU. We also expect to post a printable membership form
on our web page soon along with a link to PayPal, so you can join
from home.

For more information about the memberships, take a look at the
questions and answers below.  If you know other groups that might
be interested in Broad Universe, please feel free to forward this message.


>>>WHAT DO YOU GET FOR YOUR MEMBERSHIP?

A strong, committed organization promoting and celebrating women
writers of sf/f/h. On our way to world domination are Broadsheets and
payments to authors who write for the Broadsheet, research on the
state of the genre, information displays promoting BU authors, public
readings, catalogs, resources to help you succeed and much more.


>>>HOW MUCH DO MEMBERSHIPS COST?

We have two membership levels.

Level One: For $30/year, you get access to all aspects of the organization,
including participation in BU's group readings, listings in the book
catalog, space on the information tables and in the advertisements,
as well as access to BU's private PR database, Broadsheet archives,
and any future members-only resources on our website. (NOTE: Anyone
can become a Level One member, but because of BU's mission, only
women may participate in the BU catalog, group readings, BU book-
launch parties and similar marketing efforts. The rest of the Level
One benefits are accessible to all Level One members.)

Level Two: For $15/year, you receive access to all non-marketing offerings
from BU, including access to the Broadsheet archives and any future
members-only pages on the website.


>>>HOW LONG IS THE MEMBERSHIP TERM?

Memberships last for one year, from June 1 through May 31. The new
membership rules go into effect June 1, 2003.


>>>I'M BROKE AND DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR A MEMBERSHIP. WHAT
CAN I DO?

Please let us know if you're in a bind. When possible, we will be
offering subsidies for part or all of the membership fee to those
suffering financial hardship.


>>>I'D LIKE TO DONATE TO HELP PEOPLE WITH FINANCIAL NEED JOIN BU.
WHAT DO I DO?

Please donate to our Angels Fund, which enables us to offer some
subsidies. Any size gift will be appreciated.


>>>IS THE MEMBERSHIP FEE TAX-DEDUCTIBLE?

It is not deductible as a charitable contribution.  The membership fee
may qualify as a business expense; check with your accountant or tax preparer.


>>>WHAT HAPPENS IF I DON'T JOIN?

You can still subscribe to our email list (see http://www.broaduniverse.org
for more information), have access to the latest updates of the Broadsheet,
to our online catalog and to the public areas of our website. You will
miss the chance, however, to add a few of your dollars to the promotion
of women sf/f/h writers.


>>>MY BOOK IS ALREADY IN THE BU CATALOG, WHAT HAPPENS IF I DON'T
BECOME A MEMBER?

Books currently listed in the catalog have been grandmothered in. If
you want to change an entry or list additional books, you will need
to become a Level One member.


>>>I'M ALREADY SIGNED UP TO DO A BU READING. CAN I STILL PARTICIPATE
IF I DON'T BECOME A MEMBER?

Absolutely! At Wiscon and other cons for the next few months, you
won't have to be a paid member to participate in BU readings.
However, only Level One members will be allowed to read at Worldcon and
afterwards.

>>>WHAT ARE THE MOST IMMEDIATE CHANGES I'LL SEE ON JUNE 1 WHEN THE
NEW MEMBERSHIPS GO INTO EFFECT?

The Broadsheet archives will no longer be accessible to non-members.
Authors who wish to list new books in our catalog or display their
books and promotional materials on our information tables also will
not be able to do so unless they're Level One members.

....

If you have questions, contact us at info@broaduniverse.org.

--
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
It's a Broad Universe!
http://www.broaduniverse.org
Heather Whipple, motherboarder
web@broaduniverse.org
--============_-1159767200==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<!doctype html public "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<html><head><style type="text/css"><!--
blockquote, dl, ul, ol, li { padding-top: 0 ; padding-bottom: 0 }
 --></style><title>Broad Universe membership news</title></head><body>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">Broad Universe is an organization
with the primary goal of celebrating</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">and promoting science fiction,
fantasy, and horror written by women.</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">Anyone excited about that project
is welcome to join us.</font></div>
<div><font
face="Bookman Old Style">http://www.broaduniverse.org</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style"><br>
Become A BU Member!</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">Broad Universe is ready to take
the next step in its continuing quest<br>
to celebrate and promote women in science fiction, fantasy and<br>
horror. Beginning at Wiscon, May 23-26, 2003, we'll be selling<br>
memberships in BU. We also expect to post a printable membership
form<br>
on our web page soon along with a link to PayPal, so you can join<br>
from home.<br>
<br>
For more information about the memberships, take a look at
the</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">questions and answers below.&nbsp;
If you know other groups that might</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">be interested in Broad Universe,
please feel free to forward this message.</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style"><br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;WHAT DO YOU GET FOR YOUR MEMBERSHIP?<br>
<br>
A strong, committed organization promoting and celebrating women<br>
writers of sf/f/h. On our way to world domination are Broadsheets
and<br>
payments to authors who write for the Broadsheet, research on the<br>
state of the genre, information displays promoting BU authors,
public<br>
readings, catalogs, resources to help you succeed and much more.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;HOW MUCH DO MEMBERSHIPS COST?<br>
<br>
We have two membership levels.<br>
<br>
Level One: For $30/year, you get access to all aspects of the
organization,<br>
including participation in BU's group readings, listings in the
book<br>
catalog, space on the information tables and in the
advertisements,<br>
as well as access to BU's private PR database, Broadsheet
archives,<br>
and any future members-only resources on our website. (NOTE:
Anyone<br>
can become a Level One member, but because of BU's mission,
only</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">women may participate in the BU
catalog, group readings, BU book-</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">launch parties and similar
marketing efforts. The rest of the Level</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">One benefits are accessible to all
Level One members.)<br>
<br>
Level Two: For $15/year, you receive access to all non-marketing
offerings</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">from BU, including access to the
Broadsheet archives and any future<br>
members-only pages on the website.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;HOW LONG IS THE MEMBERSHIP TERM?<br>
<br>
Memberships last for one year, from June 1 through May 31. The new<br>
membership rules go into effect June 1, 2003.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;I'M BROKE AND DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY FOR A
MEMBERSHIP. WHAT<br>
CAN I DO?<br>
<br>
Please let us know if you're in a bind. When possible, we will
be</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">offering subsidies for part or all
of the membership fee to those</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">suffering financial hardship.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;I'D LIKE TO DONATE TO HELP PEOPLE WITH FINANCIAL NEED JOIN
BU.<br>
WHAT DO I DO?<br>
<br>
Please donate to our Angels Fund, which enables us to offer some<br>
subsidies. Any size gift will be appreciated.</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style"><br></font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">&gt;&gt;&gt;IS THE MEMBERSHIP FEE
TAX-DEDUCTIBLE?</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">It is not deductible as a
charitable contribution.&nbsp; The membership fee</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">may qualify as a business expense;
check with your accountant or tax preparer.&nbsp;</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">&nbsp;</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">&gt;&gt;&gt;WHAT HAPPENS IF I
DON'T JOIN?</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">You can still subscribe to our
email list (see http://www.broaduniverse.org</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">for more information), have access
to the latest updates of the Broadsheet,</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">to our online catalog and to the
public areas of our website. You will</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">miss the chance, however, to add a
few of your dollars to the promotion</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">of women sf/f/h writers.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;MY BOOK IS ALREADY IN THE BU CATALOG, WHAT HAPPENS IF I
DON'T<br>
BECOME A MEMBER?<br>
<br>
Books currently listed in the catalog have been grandmothered in.
If<br>
you want to change an entry or list additional books, you will
need</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">to become a Level One
member.</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style"><br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;I'M ALREADY SIGNED UP TO DO A BU READING. CAN I STILL
PARTICIPATE<br>
IF I DON'T BECOME A MEMBER?</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style"><br>
Absolutely! At Wiscon and other cons for the next few months, you<br>
won't have to be a paid member to participate in BU
readings.</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">However, only Level One members
will be allowed to read at Worldcon and</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">afterwards.</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">&gt;&gt;&gt;WHAT ARE THE MOST
IMMEDIATE CHANGES I'LL SEE ON JUNE 1 WHEN THE<br>
NEW MEMBERSHIPS GO INTO EFFECT?<br>
<br>
The Broadsheet archives will no longer be accessible to
non-members.</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">Authors who wish to list new books
in our catalog or display their</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">books and promotional materials on
our information tables also will</font></div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">not be able to do so unless
they're Level One members.</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">....</font><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Bookman Old Style">If you have questions, contact us
at info@broaduniverse.org.</font></div>
<div><br></div>
<x-sigsep><pre>--
</pre></x-sigsep>
<div>. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . .<br>
It's a Broad Universe!<br>
http://www.broaduniverse.org<br>
Heather Whipple, motherboarder<br>
web@broaduniverse.org</div>
</body>
</html>
--============_-1159767200==_ma============--

From sentto-2266408-900-1052786268-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon May 12 17:37:55 2003
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  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Andy Culater 
  To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 6:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Hello from a new member...



  please read the 'left hand of darkness',  which I think is the best but I also enjoyed 'the word for world is forest' and her most recent offering 'the telling' which is very simple to read but wonderfully rich and satisfying

  Yeah, just what I was going to say!  It depends a little, maybe, on how old you are now, but my instinct is that you should go for "The Left Hand of Darkness" or maybe the others he says....  I'm behind on reading messages so will go back to reading now ....  Jane



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From sentto-2266408-901-1052989315-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu May 15 02:01:56 2003
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Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 08:50:02 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] I am most excited to find this group!
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Hi there!  My name is Joe, and I'm from Northern California.  I'm 24, 
an English major, and I want to be a novelist, mostly because of the 
inspiration of the unsurpassable Ursula K. LeGuin.  I adore her 
books, I consider them gifts to be treasured, and I look forward to 
reading other people's insights into her work.

I just recently finished reading "Birthday of the World" and was 
curious as to whether Ms. LeGuin had made any statements about the 
Inca Empire and how the real political system, historically speaking, 
influenced the writing of that work.  If anyone knows, please share, 
I'm hoping on doing a paper on it eventually.

Again...so glad I found this group!



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--- In the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com, "Steph" <allseeingeyeofmine@y...> 
wrote:

***Hi there, Steph.  I have grown to love Ursula above all authors 
over the past few years and have read most of her work now.  First of 
all, I can highly, highly recommend the other Earthsea volumes, of 
which I only read last January: Tales of Earthsea and The Other Wind, 
which are just mind breakingly beautiful.  In addition to those also 
being my favorite books/book series of all time, I would urge you to 
read The Dispossessed.  I think it's her best scifi novel (it's just 
my personal favorite).  It's a thoroughly engrossing penetration into 
the question as to whether human beings could create a utopia where 
everything was truly fair to everyone.  It's just amazing.




> Hi, I just thought I'd write a quick post to introduce myself.
> 
> I joined this group because, although I've never read anything else 
> by Ursula Le Guin, when I was about ten I read the Earthsea quartet 
> and I've read it and re-read it periodically ever since. They were 
> the most beautiful books I'd ever read and looking back on it from 
an 
> older person's vantage point, a lot of the way I think has come 
from 
> the reading of those books and a lot of my personal beliefs, too. 
I'd 
> love to read something else by her. Maybe someone could give me 
some 
> suggestions?
> 
> Thanks!


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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 00:05:19 +0200
Subject: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind US Hardcover
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Greetings fellows!

I've got 2 copies of The Other Wind (the hardcover US edition) and both of them have deckled pages, meaning the pages at the right side of the book are rough and unevenly cut. I wonder whether all copies are like this, or whether I got copies of a bad batch.

Thanks, Oren

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Hey there...
I also liked The Dispossessed, and I love her short stories, too...the ones
in "Unlocking the Air" and "The Compass Rose". I would recomend those
stories as well as the novels you've mentioned...
I haven't read all her works yet..
just wanted to add her short stories to the recommendations..

paula



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From sentto-2266408-905-1053083575-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Fri May 16 04:12:58 2003
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Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:48:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind US Hardcover
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Owne wrote:
>I've got 2 copies of The Other Wind (the hardcover US edition) and both of 
>them have deckled pages, meaning the pages at the right side of the book 
>are rough and unevenly cut. I wonder whether all copies are like this, or 
>whether I got copies of a bad batch.

My copy is the same, as are the ones I've seen in the store, so I'm pretty 
sure it's a stylistic thing.  It certainly wouldn't be the first time I've 
seen intentional deckled pages in a hardcover before.  Gives it . . . an 
older feel, I think is what they're going for.



      --krista

website: undecided http://krista.rupture.net/
journal: this is how i feel http://krista.rupture.net/this/

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From sentto-2266408-906-1053096948-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Fri May 16 07:56:47 2003
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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 16:55:32 +0200
Subject: [the-ekumen] The New Atlantis and John Birch
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Heya to you all!

I am just rereading "The New Atlantis". There are mentioned
"Neo-Birch-Rebels" in Phoenix that use small tactical a-bombs for their
rebellion against dystopian USA. Could there be a linkage to the John Birch
Society (http://www.jbs.org)? I am not an US citizen and it is difficult for
me to estimate the role different groups. What do you think?

Peter


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Peter Seyferth scripsit:

> I am just rereading "The New Atlantis". There are mentioned
> "Neo-Birch-Rebels" in Phoenix that use small tactical a-bombs for their
> rebellion against dystopian USA. Could there be a linkage to the John Birch
> Society (http://www.jbs.org)? I am not an US citizen and it is difficult for
> me to estimate the role different groups. What do you think?

That is almost certainly the reference.  The John Birch Society is a very
small, very right-wing group.

-- 
"In my last lifetime,                           John Cowan
I believed in reincarnation;                    http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
in this lifetime,                               jcowan@reutershealth.com
I don't."  --Thiagi                             http://www.reutershealth.com

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Hi everyone!  This isn't exactly on topic, but I recently discovered Tony 
Hillerman's Navajo detective series and immediately became addicted.  The 
descriptions of different customs, ways of thinking, different ways of seeing 
American life, could almost be descriptions of another planet with a 
completely different culture.  Anyway, one of the back of the book blurbs 
quotes Ursula K. Le Guin as saying the only mysteries she reads are Tony 
Hillerman's.  I thought that sounded uncharacteristically snobbish, but I can 
understand that with her knowledge of southwestern Indian cultures she would 
enjoy them.  And in the books the basic attitude towards people and nature is 
very "Le Guinish".  Has anyone else noticed similarities?   Judy Dubois


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From sentto-2266408-909-1053112386-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Fri May 16 12:13:12 2003
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judyldubois@aol.com scripsit:

> Hi everyone!  This isn't exactly on topic, but I recently discovered Tony 
> Hillerman's Navajo detective series and immediately became addicted.   

Welcome to the Hillerman club!  They're wonderful -- and very UKLish.

-- 
John Cowan       http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        <jcowan@reutershealth.com>
        You tollerday donsk?  N.  You tolkatiff scowegian?  Nn.
        You spigotty anglease?  Nnn.  You phonio saxo?  Nnnn.
                Clear all so!  `Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)

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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 13:14:12 -0700
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The New Atlantis and John Birch
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At 12:27 PM 5/16/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Peter Seyferth scripsit:
>
> > I am just rereading "The New Atlantis". There are mentioned
> > "Neo-Birch-Rebels" in Phoenix that use small tactical a-bombs for their
> > rebellion against dystopian USA. Could there be a linkage to the John Birch
> > Society (http://www.jbs.org)? I am not an US citizen and it is 
> difficult for
> > me to estimate the role different groups. What do you think?
>
>That is almost certainly the reference.  The John Birch Society is a very
>small, very right-wing group.

Are it still in existence?  I haven't heard of them in decades.

>--=Fred=-


Even poets get depressed...

Muddy SAKE, black rice-
   Sick of the cherry,
      Sick of the world.
         - Basho -

fredr@gci-net.com


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From sentto-2266408-911-1053126169-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Fri May 16 16:33:11 2003
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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 00:04:09 +0100
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 332
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Well, while we're with alternative authors I've just started rereading my
Samuel Delaney books - found a reference to UKL on this site which makes it
almost on topic
http://www.pcc.com/~jay/delany/#inspire
very post modern, though this is not a term I knew when I first read them
both in the 70s - more like surreal which UKL doesn't go for in the same
way, but nevertheless there seem to me to be parallels, what do you think?
Hannah

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <judyldubois@aol.com>
To: <the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 332


> Hi everyone!  This isn't exactly on topic, but I recently discovered Tony
> Hillerman's Navajo detective series and immediately became addicted.  The
> descriptions of different customs, ways of thinking, different ways of
seeing
> American life, could almost be descriptions of another planet with a
> completely different culture.  Anyway, one of the back of the book blurbs
> quotes Ursula K. Le Guin as saying the only mysteries she reads are Tony
> Hillerman's.  I thought that sounded uncharacteristically snobbish, but I
can
> understand that with her knowledge of southwestern Indian cultures she
would
> enjoy them.  And in the books the basic attitude towards people and nature
is
> very "Le Guinish".  Has anyone else noticed similarities?   Judy Dubois
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>



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From sentto-2266408-912-1053138957-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Fri May 16 19:36:10 2003
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Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 21:41:25 -0400
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The New Atlantis and John Birch
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The Weatherman and the John Birch Society are real radical groups from the sixties that are still, in one form or another, still in operation today.  I believe both are more minorly politically based these days.  I doubt either have been using terrorist means for thier objectives, least of all WMD.  The www.crimelibrary.org has a good article on the Weatherman.  

The New Atlantis was my introduction to Le Guin my Freshman year of college and it caused me to seek out the other two works that are loosely set in that Pacific NW world, The Lathe of Heaven and Always Coming Home (which I keep meaning to finish ;))

-Patrick


"Hey you! don't tell me there's no hope at all 
Together we stand, divided we fall."

-"Hey You" Pink Floyd 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Peter Seyferth 
  To: Ekumen 
  Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 10:55 AM
  Subject: [the-ekumen] The New Atlantis and John Birch


  Heya to you all!

  I am just rereading "The New Atlantis". There are mentioned
  "Neo-Birch-Rebels" in Phoenix that use small tactical a-bombs for their
  rebellion against dystopian USA. Could there be a linkage to the John Birch
  Society (http://www.jbs.org)? I am not an US citizen and it is difficult for
  me to estimate the role different groups. What do you think?

  Peter


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Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 11:30:12 +0200
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind US Hardcover
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Kristen Walker wrote:


>Owne wrote:
>>I've got 2 copies of The Other Wind (the hardcover US edition) and both of
>>them have deckled pages, meaning the pages at the right side of the book
>>are rough and unevenly cut. I wonder whether all copies are like this, or
>>whether I got copies of a bad batch.

>My copy is the same, as are the ones I've seen in the store, so I'm pretty
>sure it's a stylistic thing.  It certainly wouldn't be the first time I've
>seen intentional deckled pages in a hardcover before.  Gives it . . . an
>older feel, I think is what they're going for.

Thanks Kristen. I would have thought though that if they wanted to give it
an older look they would have used pages which are deckled all around and
not only at the right side of the book. But I guess they have their own
considerations..

And by the way, the name is Oren and not Owne :-)


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From sentto-2266408-914-1053378108-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon May 19 14:03:02 2003
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Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:51:54 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Wild girls by UKL on line
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UKL's "Wild girls" Hugo nominated novelette, is available on line at

http://www.asimovs.com/Hugos/wildgirls.shtml

regards,



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Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 00:16:57 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] What happens to Genly after the Farm?
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Hi, 
Can anyone help me out here? I got a little lost after Genly Ai was saved from 
the Farm, so what happens after that....all the way to the end? If anyone can 
help me, I'd be so grateful!! 
Lucy 



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Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:30:44 +1200
Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] What happens to Genly after the Farm?
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Have you got a book report due or are you really interested?

Aquila

"Nothing here is real"


> -----Original Message-----
> From: socalulu99 [mailto:socalulu99@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 20 May 2003 12:17 p.m.
> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [the-ekumen] What happens to Genly after the Farm?
> 
> 
> Hi, 
> Can anyone help me out here? I got a little lost after Genly Ai 
> was saved from 
> the Farm, so what happens after that....all the way to the end? 
> If anyone can 
> help me, I'd be so grateful!! 
> Lucy 
> 
 

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From sentto-2266408-917-1054507699-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sun Jun  1 15:48:25 2003
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Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2003 21:30:56 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Earthsea Miniseries on Sci-Fi Channel
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Is there really a miniseries still in development?  I can't find 
recent info. on this to tell whether it has aired already or is 
shelved or what. I am a long -time fan of this author's work and I 
am not altogether excited about the prospect of this project.

What do others think?
What have you heard?



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Date: Sun,  1 Jun 2003 19:50:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Earthsea Miniseries on Sci-Fi Channel
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Well...I went searching on scifi.com about a month ago looking for this
information.  The only detailed reports are from 2001, but there was a mention
on April 1 of this year that things are still in the works.  I believe it said
we can expect the miniseries in 2004 or 2005, but I'm not sure and I no longer
have the link.

I'm not concerned about the quality of the miniseries except in the case of what
they'll keep.  The books are too long for even an eight- or ten-hour miniseries,
or maybe even a twenty-hour one, so I don't know what they'll keep, add, change,
or cut.  I think they might manage to make it good, though.  We'll see. 
Certainly better than a feature film, as they'll actually have time to explore
some of the themes that a film wouldn't.

Anyone else heard anything more recent?



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Ice, lots of ice...

Yours,
Ethhp



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Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 20:52:02 -0700
Subject: [the-ekumen] April in Paris
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Had a rough day, grabbed a couple books off the shelf and read that early sweet Ursula tale(April in Paris) the other night.  Then picked up "Orsinian Tales" again...dang...
So glad to find this site!  What's up with "The Left Hand of Darkness" film?  I can't imagine anyone doing justice to it (especially Hollywood) on a cinematic level.  Then again, "The Lord of the Rings" has been much better than I feared.  Again, Howdy from Northern California, pleased to meet you.

Carol


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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From sentto-2266408-921-1056166704-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Fri Jun 20 20:38:32 2003
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Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 03:38:21 -0000
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--- In the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com, "Brock Helander" <helander@n...> 
wrote:
> Had a rough day, grabbed a couple books off the shelf and read that 
early sweet Ursula tale(April in Paris) the other night.  Then picked 
up "Orsinian Tales" again...dang...
> So glad to find this site!  What's up with "The Left Hand of 
Darkness" film?  I can't imagine anyone doing justice to it 
(especially Hollywood) on a cinematic level.  Then again, "The Lord 
of the Rings" has been much better than I feared.  Again, Howdy from 
Northern California, pleased to meet you.
> 
> Carol
> 
***I just had a general question...anyone feel free to jump in here.  
Has any word been released for the casting of "Left Hand" or the 
Earthsea miniseries?  I haven't been able to find anything. :(

Joe
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From sentto-2266408-922-1056167467-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Fri Jun 20 20:51:15 2003
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Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 15:44:35 +1200
Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] Re: April in Paris
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No. But I'll be really unimpressed if they use Caucasian actors for Genly Ai
or for the people of Earthsea.

Aquila

"Nothing here is real"


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Achoo [mailto:cloudheart52@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, 21 June 2003 3:38 p.m.
> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: April in Paris
>
>
> --- In the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com, "Brock Helander" <helander@n...>
> wrote:
> > Had a rough day, grabbed a couple books off the shelf and read that
> early sweet Ursula tale(April in Paris) the other night.  Then picked
> up "Orsinian Tales" again...dang...
> > So glad to find this site!  What's up with "The Left Hand of
> Darkness" film?  I can't imagine anyone doing justice to it
> (especially Hollywood) on a cinematic level.  Then again, "The Lord
> of the Rings" has been much better than I feared.  Again, Howdy from
> Northern California, pleased to meet you.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> ***I just had a general question...anyone feel free to jump in here.
> Has any word been released for the casting of "Left Hand" or the
> Earthsea miniseries?  I haven't been able to find anything. :(
>
> Joe
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 11:14:59 +0100
Subject: [the-ekumen] April in Paris
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On Monday, Jun 16, 2003, at 04:52 Europe/London, Brock Helander wrote:

> Had a rough day, grabbed a couple books off the shelf and read that 
> early sweet Ursula tale(April in Paris) the other night.  Then picked 
> up "Orsinian Tales" again...dang...
>

I always think of 'April in Paris' as being in the 'Orsinian Tales' 
collection, so I'm always somewhat surprised to find it when I open up 
'The Winds Twelve Quarters'. But then I read it anyway...


chiz chiz

rdg


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From sentto-2266408-924-1056456626-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Jun 24 05:10:33 2003
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 13:56:19 +0200
Subject: [the-ekumen] April in Paris, not in Orsinia
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> I always think of 'April in Paris' as being in the 'Orsinian Tales'
> collection, so I'm always somewhat surprised to find it when I open up
> 'The Winds Twelve Quarters'. But then I read it anyway...

"April in Paris" is Le Guin's second (published) short story. Her first
short story is "An die Musik", and this story is located in her Orsinian
universe (and therefore part of "Orsinian Tales"). "April in Paris" is
either a fantasy or a science fiction story--that depends on if the time
travels are a magical or a scientifical phenomenon, which is not made clear
in the story.

The only Orsinian stories not collected in "Orsinian Tales" are "Two Delays
on the Northern Line" (in "Compass Rose") and "Unlocking the Air" (first
appeared in Playboy, later in a collection of the same name). And of course
"Malafrena".

Orsinia appears to be located far more east in Europe than Paris (or Paris
III, as Kislk knows it).

Peter


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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:45:06 +0100
Subject: [the-ekumen] April in Paris, not in Orsinia, apparently
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On Tuesday, Jun 24, 2003, at 12:56 Europe/London, Peter Seyferth wrote:

>> I always think of 'April in Paris' as being in the 'Orsinian Tales'
>> collection, so I'm always somewhat surprised to find it when I open up
>> 'The Winds Twelve Quarters'. But then I read it anyway...
>
> "April in Paris" is Le Guin's second (published) short story. Her first
> short story is "An die Musik", and this story is located in her 
> Orsinian
> universe (and therefore part of "Orsinian Tales"). "April in Paris" is
> either a fantasy or a science fiction story--that depends on if the 
> time
> travels are a magical or a scientifical phenomenon, which is not made 
> clear
> in the story.
>
> The only Orsinian stories not collected in "Orsinian Tales" are "Two 
> Delays
> on the Northern Line" (in "Compass Rose") and "Unlocking the Air" 
> (first
> appeared in Playboy, later in a collection of the same name). And of 
> course
> "Malafrena".

Gosh.

> Orsinia appears to be located far more east in Europe than Paris (or 
> Paris
> III, as Kislk knows it).

Message 389 in this list  
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-ekumen/message/389) {Hey Hannah!} 
started a lengthy - but not conclusive - discussion about this very 
topic. Worth looking at.


chiz chiz

rdg


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Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 00:00:34 -0400
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] April in Paris, not in Orsinia
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"An die Musik" is my absolute favorite Le Guin story!  I've never read such 
a compassionate, uncompromising look at the dilemma of the artist who 
struggles to meet the mundane responsibilities of life and community, 
without giving up his art.  It's amazing that it was her first published 
story.  When was it first published?

Kathleen

At 01:56 PM 06/24/2003 +0200, you wrote:
>"April in Paris" is Le Guin's second (published) short story. Her first
>short story is "An die Musik", and this story is located in her Orsinian
>universe (and therefore part of "Orsinian Tales"). "April in Paris" is
>either a fantasy or a science fiction story--that depends on if the time
>travels are a magical or a scientifical phenomenon, which is not made clear
>in the story.
>
>Peter


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Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:48:16 +0100
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On Wednesday, Jun 25, 2003, at 05:00 Europe/London, Kathleen M. wrote:

> "An die Musik" is my absolute favorite Le Guin story!  I've never read 
> such
> a compassionate, uncompromising look at the dilemma of the artist who
> struggles to meet the mundane responsibilities of life and community,
> without giving up his art.  It's amazing that it was her first 
> published
> story.  When was it first published?
>
> Kathleen
>

1962, in 'Fantastic' (it says here [Encyclopedia of SF 2nd ed., Clute / 
Nicholls, 1993]).

Hmmmn.... it goes on to say;-

'like much of her early work this is more fantasy than sf'

An I thocht it was just a lovely story.


chiz chiz

rdg


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Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 18:29:13 -0400
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] April in Paris, not in Orsinia
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At 12:00 AM 2003-06-25 -0400, Kathleen M. wrote:
>"An die Musik" is my absolute favorite Le Guin story! [snip]
>When was it first published?

Summer of 1961, in *The Western Humanities Review*.

By the way, if anyone wants other publication details of Le Guin's works, 
you should visit The Ekumen's area of Yahoo Groups:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-ekumen/

I have compiled three bibliographical lists under the "Database" link on 
the left for:

Novels
Stories
Essays and Speeches

Apart from Le Guin's most recent output, they are fairly comprehensive (I 
think).

Best wishes,

-----
Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT
http://therem.net/
Listening to: Radiohead -- Hail to the Thief
"I've built my white picket fence around the Now,
with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick



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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:20:52 +0200
Subject: [the-ekumen] Left Hand of Darkness
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Speaking of The Left Hand of Darkness, there was actually a stage production
of it
by lifeline theater (http://www.lifelinetheatre.com/about/productions.html).
I know the place where they (or somebody else) should play it: the Ice Globe
Theater (http://www.icehotel.com/english/Iceglobe/iceglobe.htm) -
a replica of the original Globe Theater but built entirely in ice and snow.

Wouldn't that be pretty cool? (no pun intented)

. fredrik
(PS - sorry about all the popups and crap on Le Guin's World
(http://surf.to/le.guin/), not to mention the lack of updates. I do have a
life, it seems. At some point I'm going to find another host and do some
updates.)


-----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Fran: Lisa Ethhp [mailto:ethhp@lycos.com]
Skickat: den 10 juni 2003 12:31
Till: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com
Amne: [the-ekumen] (No Subject)


  Ice, lots of ice...

  Yours,
  Ethhp


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:29:46 -0700
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] April in Paris, not in Orsinia
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At 08:48 AM 6/25/2003 , Roddy Graham wrote:
>
>On Wednesday, Jun 25, 2003, at 05:00 Europe/London, Kathleen M. wrote:
>
>> "An die Musik" is my absolute favorite Le Guin story!  I've never read 
>> such
>> a compassionate, uncompromising look at the dilemma of the artist who
>> struggles to meet the mundane responsibilities of life and community,
>> without giving up his art.  It's amazing that it was her first 
>> published
>> story.  When was it first published?
>>
>> Kathleen
>>
>
>1962, in 'Fantastic' (it says here [Encyclopedia of SF 2nd ed., Clute / 
>Nicholls, 1993]).

That was "April in Paris" (not "An die Musik") which was published in
"Fantastic".


>Hmmmn.... it goes on to say;-
>
>'like much of her early work this is more fantasy than sf'
>
>An I thocht it was just a lovely story.

But what kind of lovely story?  This comment is an observation of
classification, not a criticism; and it's an entirely reasonable
observation to be made in what is, after all, an encyclopedia of science
fiction.

- David Bratman


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I just discovered that there is a new book, sounds like a collection of short 
stories but with a frame, called Changing Planes.  i'm surprised that no one 
here has mentioned it.  I know I'm months behind things going on in the 
States, but what do y'all think about the new book?  I've ordered it, but by the 
time it reaches me, we'll all be much older and much greyer.  Are there other new 
books in the works?   Judy


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Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 15:55:56 -0400
Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: New Le Guin Books
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At 01:58 PM 2003-06-28 -0400, judyldubois@aol.com wrote:
>I just discovered that there is a new book, sounds like a collection of short
>stories but with a frame, called Changing Planes.  i'm surprised that no one
>here has mentioned it.  I know I'm months behind things going on in the
>States, but what do y'all think about the new book?  I've ordered it, but 
>by the
>time it reaches me, we'll all be much older and much greyer.  Are there 
>other new
>books in the works?

Hi Judy --

I didn't know that *Changing Planes* was already available! The last time I 
checked Amazon.com, it had a release date of sometime in July. I guess it's 
early.

Three stories in the book are familiar to me: "The Flyers of Gy", "The 
Island of the Immortals" and "The Building". To tell the truth, I wasn't 
impressed by the first two, but I liked "The Building" quite a bit. Not 
sure how that bodes for the rest of the collection. I worry that I will 
find it frivolous.

As far as I know, she has no other new books in the offing, unless you 
count her translation of Angelica Gorodischer's *Kalpa Imperial*, due out 
in August. There is information about it here:

http://www.lcrw.net/kalpa/index.htm

Best wishes,

-----
Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT
http://therem.net/
Listening to: Radiohead -- Hail to the Thief
"I've built my white picket fence around the Now,
with a commanding view of the Soon-to-Be." -- The Tick


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From sentto-2266408-933-1056830354-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sat Jun 28 12:59:19 2003
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Le Guin's website has some info about forthcoming books -- I recall 
another essay collection coming in 2004.

http://www.ursulakleguin.com

Heather
-- 
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
heather whipple
hhw@sondryfolk.net
http://www.sondryfolk.net/hhw

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From sentto-2266408-934-1056861412-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sat Jun 28 21:37:00 2003
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Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2003 21:35:15 -0700
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Changing Planes
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I just received a copy yesterday which came from the publisher, and Amazon 
says it's ready to ship.  I'm sorry I didn't mention it as soon as it 
came!  I've read about half of it so far, and several pieces have been 
previously published, including "The Island of the Immortals", "The Royals 
of Hegn", "The Fliers of Gy", and "The Seasons of the Ansarac".  It's a 
collection of short pieces about the human(oid) civilizations to be found 
on other planes of existence which can be reached through the 
imagination.  They differ from us rather in the way of the Hainish 
biological/psychological experiments that she's written so much about in 
the past, except that these lack that frame story and that leash.  You 
can't always see how they might have come into existence, though in some, 
like "Porridge on Islac", how they came into existence is the 
point.  They're often very sharp but comedic sideways looks at our own 
society, and the introductory piece - rather different in nature from most 
of the rest so far, I thought - is an example of the pure silly whimsey 
that Le Guin doesn't let loose in print very often (the "Venom" self-review 
of _Beginning Place_ in _Dancing at the Edge of the World_, and parts of 
the texts to "Uses of Music in Uttermost Parts" are some previous examples).

She'll be reading from the book, I'm told, at A Clean Well-Lighted Place 
for Books, in Opera Plaza in San Francisco, this Tuesday at 7 PM.  I hope 
she reads the introduction.  Some people will be in for a big surprise, and 
a lot of laughs.

- David Bratman


At 01:58 PM 6/28/2003 -0400, Judy wrote:
>I just discovered that there is a new book, sounds like a collection of short
>stories but with a frame, called Changing Planes.  i'm surprised that no one
>here has mentioned it.  I know I'm months behind things going on in the
>States, but what do y'all think about the new book?  I've ordered it, but 
>by the
>time it reaches me, we'll all be much older and much greyer.




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From lquilter@boalthall.berkeley.edu Sun Jun 29 14:00:46 2003 -0700
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2003 14:00:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: lq2@feministsf.org
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also at cody's in berkeley, 730 monday.

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003, David S Bratman wrote:

> I just received a copy yesterday which came from the publisher, and Amazon 
> says it's ready to ship.  I'm sorry I didn't mention it as soon as it 
> came!  I've read about half of it so far, and several pieces have been 
> previously published, including "The Island of the Immortals", "The Royals 
> of Hegn", "The Fliers of Gy", and "The Seasons of the Ansarac".  It's a 
> collection of short pieces about the human(oid) civilizations to be found 
> on other planes of existence which can be reached through the 
> imagination.  They differ from us rather in the way of the Hainish 
> biological/psychological experiments that she's written so much about in 
> the past, except that these lack that frame story and that leash.  You 
> can't always see how they might have come into existence, though in some, 
> like "Porridge on Islac", how they came into existence is the 
> point.  They're often very sharp but comedic sideways looks at our own 
> society, and the introductory piece - rather different in nature from most 
> of the rest so far, I thought - is an example of the pure silly whimsey 
> that Le Guin doesn't let loose in print very often (the "Venom" self-review 
> of _Beginning Place_ in _Dancing at the Edge of the World_, and parts of 
> the texts to "Uses of Music in Uttermost Parts" are some previous examples).
> 
> She'll be reading from the book, I'm told, at A Clean Well-Lighted Place 
> for Books, in Opera Plaza in San Francisco, this Tuesday at 7 PM.  I hope 
> she reads the introduction.  Some people will be in for a big surprise, and 
> a lot of laughs.
> 
> - David Bratman
> 
> 
> At 01:58 PM 6/28/2003 -0400, Judy wrote:
> >I just discovered that there is a new book, sounds like a collection of short
> >stories but with a frame, called Changing Planes.  i'm surprised that no one
> >here has mentioned it.  I know I'm months behind things going on in the
> >States, but what do y'all think about the new book?  I've ordered it, but 
> >by the
> >time it reaches me, we'll all be much older and much greyer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 


From sentto-2266408-936-1056928469-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sun Jun 29 16:14:35 2003
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>also at cody's in berkeley, 730 monday.

and Powells in Portland, 7:30 July 10
-- 
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
heather whipple
hhw@sondryfolk.net
http://www.sondryfolk.net/hhw

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From sentto-2266408-937-1057012748-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Jun 30 15:39:15 2003
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Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 23:29:21 +0100
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] April in Paris, not in Orsinia
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On Friday, Jun 27, 2003, at 16:29 Europe/London, David S. Bratman wrote:

> At 08:48 AM 6/25/2003 , Roddy Graham wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday, Jun 25, 2003, at 05:00 Europe/London, Kathleen M. wrote:
>>
>>> "An die Musik" is my absolute favorite Le Guin story!  When was it 
>>> first published?
>>>
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>
>> 1962, in 'Fantastic' (it says here [Encyclopedia of SF 2nd ed., Clute 
>> /
>> Nicholls, 1993]).
>
> That was "April in Paris" (not "An die Musik") which was published in
> "Fantastic".
>
>
>> Hmmmn.... it goes on to say;-
>>
>> 'like much of her early work this is more fantasy than sf'
>>
>> An I thocht it was just a lovely story.
>
> But what kind of lovely story?  This comment is an observation of
> classification, not a criticism; and it's an entirely reasonable
> observation to be made in what is, after all, an encyclopedia of 
> science
> fiction.


Y'know I was saying earlier about being surprised to find 'April in 
Paris' in 'The Wind's Twelve Quarters' instead of 'Orsinian Tales'? 
Well, it's getting worse. Now I'm mixing up 'April' and 'An die Musik', 
so when I read the Encyclopedia I had the latter in mind - you can see 
why I didn't understand the remark about it being more fantasy than sf. 
I think I'll go for a cup of cocoa and a wee lie down..... [exit stage 
left, muttering to self]....


chiz chiz

rdg


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From sentto-2266408-938-1057722462-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Jul  8 20:47:40 2003
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Please visit my group about Earthsea and other magical literary worlds.  
We can discuss this excellent series of books, along with the new 
movies which are apparently being made for the Sci Fi Channel.  There 
are many photos, polls and links to enjoy also. I hope to see you soon!




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From sentto-2266408-939-1057728984-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Jul  8 22:36:20 2003
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Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 00:36:20 -0500
Subject: [the-ekumen] Bush's War Against Evil (UKL mention)
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An essay from the Boston Globe that mentions Le Guin in passing ... I=20
suspect the writer has read The Lathe of Heaven. I don't think the term=20
"blowback" was in circulation at the time the book was written, but on=20
a metaphysical level it's an interesting way to describe what happens=20
when Dr. Haber attempts to rid the world of evil. (The blowback of the=20
dreaming mind?)

> Bush's war against evil
>
> By James Carroll, 7/8/2003  BOSTON GLOBE
>
> IN THE GOTHIC splendor of the National Cathedral, that
> liturgy of trauma, George W. Bush made the most
> stirring - and ominous - declaration of his
> presidency. It was Sept. 14, 2001. ''Just three days
> removed from these events,'' he said, ''Americans do
> not yet have ''the distance of history.'' But our
> responsibility to history is already clear: to answer
> these attacks and rid the world of evil.''
>
> The statement fell on the ears of most Americans,
> perhaps, as mere rhetoric of the high pulpit, but as
> the distance of history lengthens, events show that in
> those few words the president redefined his raison
> d'etre and that of the nation - nothing less than to
> ''rid the world of evil.'' The unprecedented
> initiatives taken from Washington in the last two
> years are incomprehensible except in the context of
> this purpose.
>
> President Bush, one sees now, meant exactly what he
> said. Something entirely new, for Americans, at least,
> is animating their government. The greatest power the
> earth has ever seen is now expressly mobilized against
> the world's most ancient mystery. What human beings
> have proven incapable of doing ever before, George W.
> Bush has taken on as his personal mission, aiming to
> accomplish it in one election cycle, two at most.
>
> What the president may not know is that the worst
> manifestations of evil have been the blowback of
> efforts to be rid of it. If one can refer to the
> personification of evil, Satan's great trick consists
> in turning the fierce energy of such purification back
> upon itself. Across the distance of history, the most
> noble ambition has invariably led to the most ignoble
> deeds. This is because the certitude of nobility
> overrides the moral qualm that adheres to less
> transcendent enterprises. The record of this deadly
> paradox is written in the full range of literature,
> from Sophocles to Fyodor Dostoyevski to Ursula K.
> LeGuin, each of whom raises the perennial question:
> What is permitted to be done in the name of ''ridding
> the world of evil''?
>
> Is lying allowed? Torture? The killing of children?
> Or, less drastic, the militarization of civil society?
> The launching of dubious wars? But wars are never
> dubious at their launchings. The recognition of
> complexity - moral as well as martial - comes only
> with ''the distance of history,'' and it is that
> perspective that has begun to press itself upon the
> American conscience now.
>
> Having forthrightly set out to rid the world of evil,
> first in Afghanistan, then in Iraq, has the United
> States, willy-nilly, become an instrument of evil?
> Lying (weapons of mass deception). Torture (if only by
> US surrogates). The killing of children
> (''collaterally,'' but inevitably). The vulgarization
> of patriotism (last week's orgy of bunting). The
> imposition of chaos (and calling it freedom). The
> destruction of alliances (''First Iraq, then
> France''). The invitation to other nations to behave
> in like fashion (Goodbye, Chechnya). The inexorable
> escalation (''Bring 'em on!''). The made-in-Washington
> pantheon of mythologized enemies (first Osama, now
> Saddam). The transmutation of ordinary young Americans
> (into dead heroes). How does all of this, or any of
> it, ''rid the world of evil''?
>
> Which brings us back to that Gothic cathedral of a
> question: What is evil anyway? Is it the impulse only
> of tyrants? Of enemies alone? Or is it tied to the
> personal entitlement onto which America, too, hangs
> its bunting? Is evil the thing, perhaps, that forever
> inclines human beings to believe that they are
> themselves untouched by it? Moral maturity, mellowed
> across the distance of history, begins in the
> acknowledgement that evil, whatever its primal source,
> resides, like a virus in its niche, in the human self.
> There is no ridding the world of evil for the simple
> fact that, shy of history's end, there is no ridding
> the self of it.
>
> But there's the problem with President Bush. It is not
> the moral immaturity of the texts he reads. Like his
> callow statement in the National Cathedral, they are
> written by someone else. When the president speaks,
> unscripted, from his own moral center, what shows
> itself is a bottomless void.
>
> To address concerns about the savage violence
> engulfing ''postwar'' Iraq with a cocksure ''Bring `em
> on!'' as he did last week, is to display an absence of
> imagination shocking in a man of such authority. It
> showed a lack of capacity to identify either with
> enraged Iraqis who must rise to such a taunt or with
> young GIs who must now answer for it. Even in
> relationship to his own soldiers, there is nothing at
> the core of this man but visceral meanness.
>
> No human being with a minimal self-knowledge could
> speak of evil as he does, but there is no
> self-knowledge without a self. Even this short
> ''distance of history'' shows George W. Bush to be, in
> that sense, the selfless president, which is not a
> compliment. It's a warning.
>
> James Carroll's column appears regularly in the Globe.
>
> This story ran on page A19 of the Boston Globe on
> 7/8/2003.
> =A9 Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company.

Dave
_________________________________
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=20

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what is the difference between the artist and the craftsman as Le 
Guin suggests in THE DISPOSSESSED? which of this does Annarres have 
and which of these is rejected by Annarres? What are the implications 
of this?

These are the questions asked in a seminar. Could any one answer 
these?


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Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 00:59:19 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Changing Planes
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Here's a link to a review by the San Francisco Chronicle 
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?
f=/chronicle/archive/2003/07/20/RV91869.DTL&type=books 

if any of you are interested, and it's a lengthy one to type in.

Carol


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 Message: 1
    Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 00:59:19 -0000
    From: "Carol" <helander@neteze.com>
 Subject: Changing Planes
 
 Here's a link to a review by the San Francisco
 Chronicle 
 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?
f=/chronicle/archive/2003/07/20/RV91869.DTL&type=books
 
 
 if any of you are interested, and it's a lengthy one
 to type in.
 
 Carol



Carol, 

Thanks.

Not a bad review, but it was still full of
back-handed, belittling phrases.  To wit:

"Although Le Guin's reputation rests on blurb-ready
appellations such as "the prolific high priestess of
science fiction," the Berkeley native's fiction output
-- 19 novels, including the landmark "The Left Hand of
Darkness, " as well as scores of short stories --
doesn't exactly adhere to the conventions generally
associated with her genre of choice. Absent are alien
invasions, intergalactic wars and the like." 

Another reviewer who insists on the segregation of
world-class science fiction and literature.  



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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:21:43 +0100
Subject: [the-ekumen] The Left Hand of Darkness: The Movie!
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http://www.thezreview.co.uk/comingsoon/l/lefthandofdarknessthe.shtm

Read to the bottom of the page - things are not what they seem.

I guess book titles are not protected by copyright.  (?)

- Susan A.


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From sentto-2266408-944-1059091191-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu Jul 24 16:59:49 2003
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Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 18:55:56 -0500
Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Left Hand of Darkness: The Movie!
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Nope, book titles aren't protected by copyright.  I think you can
trademark them, perhaps, but not many people do=97-the author is
distinctive enough.  Movie companies sometimes trademark titles, like
Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, but I think even that applies only
to other movies.  For another example, the movie Lost Boys is some sort
of horror movie, I think, and a completely different fantasy/horror book
by Orson Scott Card.

I'm disappointed, though-=97I'd seen something on this movie before, and I
thought it really was the Ursula Le Guin book.  Guess we'll just have to
wait for the Wizard of Earthsea miniseries.=20=20

Melanie

> I guess book titles are not protected by copyright.=A0=20
=20



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From sentto-2266408-945-1059620109-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Jul 30 19:55:08 2003
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Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 19:51:26 -0700
Subject: [the-ekumen] RE: The Left Hand of Darkness: The Movie!
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Don't worry - you were right. :-)

In 2001 the Sci-Fi Channel announced that they were going to present a 4-hr
adaptation of LHOD, slated for release in 2003.

At present their website shows no indication of a broadcast date. Not that
I can find, anyhow.  I just checked using their "ScheduleBOT" at:
http://www.scifi.com/schedulebot/

The ScheduleBOT searches the next month or so(?) - but no sign of LHOD yet.

Link to the old announcement:
http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-sfc.html?2001-06/07/12.15.sfc

The production company was announced as Jaffe/Braunstein.  Does anyone know
any of their other work?  Which is a polite way of asking, how apprehensive
should I be, or not be? :-)

- Susan


>I'm disappointed, though-=97I'd seen something on this movie before, and I
>thought it really was the Ursula Le Guin book.  Guess we'll just have to
>wait for the Wizard of Earthsea miniseries.=20=20
>
>Melanie
>


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Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:12:28 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Short stories...
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I once read a short story that was very, very good. I've been 
searching the web to find it and was led here.

The short story was called "The Rule of Names", from a book of 
collected short stories called "The winds twelve quarters". The 
characters were Mr. Underhill (a dragon named Yevaud in disguise), 
Blackbeard (a wizard from Pendor), Birt (a townsperson from Sattin's 
Island), Palani (the town's school teacher, and a maiden).

"This story is also set in the world of Earthsea. Years ago, a dragon 
killed the Sealord of Pendor and coiled up in the Pendor Towers where 
he hid his treasure. Later the League decided to kill the dragon and 
grab the treasure, but when they got there the dragon - as well as 
the treasure - was already gone. Now, the new Sealord of Pendor is 
out to find the wizard who must have defeated the dragon and stolen 
the Pendor treasure."

I found this on the web and was wondering if anybody could help me 
with a quote from that story....Anybody out there read/own this story?



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From: "Aquila" <aquila1@ihug.co.nz>
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:15:44 +1200
Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] Short stories...
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I'd hazard a guess most of us do. What did you need to know?

Aquila

"Nothing here is real"


> -----Original Message-----
> From: try_number_thirty [mailto:dj9699@ev1.net]
> Sent: Thursday, 7 August 2003 3:12 p.m.
> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [the-ekumen] Short stories...
>
>
> I once read a short story that was very, very good. I've been
> searching the web to find it and was led here.
>
> The short story was called "The Rule of Names", from a book of
> collected short stories called "The winds twelve quarters". The
> characters were Mr. Underhill (a dragon named Yevaud in disguise),
> Blackbeard (a wizard from Pendor), Birt (a townsperson from Sattin's
> Island), Palani (the town's school teacher, and a maiden).
>
> "This story is also set in the world of Earthsea. Years ago, a dragon
> killed the Sealord of Pendor and coiled up in the Pendor Towers where
> he hid his treasure. Later the League decided to kill the dragon and
> grab the treasure, but when they got there the dragon - as well as
> the treasure - was already gone. Now, the new Sealord of Pendor is
> out to find the wizard who must have defeated the dragon and stolen
> the Pendor treasure."
>
> I found this on the web and was wondering if anybody could help me
> with a quote from that story....Anybody out there read/own this story?
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>


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From sentto-2266408-948-1060252579-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu Aug  7 03:36:21 2003
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Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:36:36 +0200
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Short stories...
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I have "The Wind's Twelve Quarters". So just tell me which quote are you looking for and I'll find it for you.

You can buy the book at Amazon UK:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0575071397/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/202-8315278-7790217

Cheerio,

Oren
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: try_number_thirty 
  To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 5:12 AM
  Subject: [the-ekumen] Short stories...


  I once read a short story that was very, very good. I've been 
  searching the web to find it and was led here.

  The short story was called "The Rule of Names", from a book of 
  collected short stories called "The winds twelve quarters". The 
  characters were Mr. Underhill (a dragon named Yevaud in disguise), 
  Blackbeard (a wizard from Pendor), Birt (a townsperson from Sattin's 
  Island), Palani (the town's school teacher, and a maiden).

  "This story is also set in the world of Earthsea. Years ago, a dragon 
  killed the Sealord of Pendor and coiled up in the Pendor Towers where 
  he hid his treasure. Later the League decided to kill the dragon and 
  grab the treasure, but when they got there the dragon - as well as 
  the treasure - was already gone. Now, the new Sealord of Pendor is 
  out to find the wizard who must have defeated the dragon and stolen 
  the Pendor treasure."

  I found this on the web and was wondering if anybody could help me 
  with a quote from that story....Anybody out there read/own this story?



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From sentto-2266408-949-1060269785-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu Aug  7 08:23:04 2003
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Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 08:22:57 -0700
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Short stories...
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Yes, like others here I suspect, I do have a copy.  What was the question?



At 03:12 AM 8/7/2003 +0000, you wrote:
>I once read a short story that was very, very good. I've been
>searching the web to find it and was led here.
>
>The short story was called "The Rule of Names", from a book of
>collected short stories called "The winds twelve quarters". The
>characters were Mr. Underhill (a dragon named Yevaud in disguise),
>Blackbeard (a wizard from Pendor), Birt (a townsperson from Sattin's
>Island), Palani (the town's school teacher, and a maiden).
>
>"This story is also set in the world of Earthsea. Years ago, a dragon
>killed the Sealord of Pendor and coiled up in the Pendor Towers where
>he hid his treasure. Later the League decided to kill the dragon and
>grab the treasure, but when they got there the dragon - as well as
>the treasure - was already gone. Now, the new Sealord of Pendor is
>out to find the wizard who must have defeated the dragon and stolen
>the Pendor treasure."
>
>I found this on the web and was wondering if anybody could help me
>with a quote from that story....Anybody out there read/own this story?
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

=Fred=-

      The evening breezes...
Water lapping lightly against
      A blue heron's legs.
                  - Buson -

fredr@gci-net.com


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From sentto-2266408-950-1061310101-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Aug 19 09:21:40 2003
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>    Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:12:28 -0000
>    From: "try_number_thirty" <dj9699@ev1.net>
> Subject: Short stories...
> 
> I once read a short story that was very, very good. I've been 
> searching the web to find it and was led here.
> 
> The short story was called "The Rule of Names", from a book of 
> collected short stories called "The winds twelve quarters". The 
> characters were Mr. Underhill (a dragon named Yevaud in disguise), 
> Blackbeard (a wizard from Pendor), Birt (a townsperson from Sattin's 
> Island), Palani (the town's school teacher, and a maiden).
> 
> "This story is also set in the world of Earthsea. Years ago, a dragon 
> killed the Sealord of Pendor and coiled up in the Pendor Towers where 
> he hid his treasure. Later the League decided to kill the dragon and 
> grab the treasure, but when they got there the dragon - as well as 
> the treasure - was already gone. Now, the new Sealord of Pendor is 
> out to find the wizard who must have defeated the dragon and stolen 
> the Pendor treasure."
> 
> I found this on the web and was wondering if anybody could help me 
> with a quote from that story....Anybody out there read/own this story?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 
 I read this story, some years ago, but I doubt to be of any help for you, since the book was in italic. 

 Paula


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From sentto-2266408-952-1061312058-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Aug 19 09:54:16 2003
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Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:54:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: "the rule of names"
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What's your question about the story?  I've read it and know it pretty well.

If you want to buy the book, try http://www.abebooks.com -- a great site
that lets you search used bookstores around the world.

Heather

>    Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:12:28 -0000
>    From: "try_number_thirty" <dj9699@ev1.net>
> Subject: Short stories...
>
> I once read a short story that was very, very good. I've been
> searching the web to find it and was led here.
>
> The short story was called "The Rule of Names", from a book of
> collected short stories called "The winds twelve quarters". The
> characters were Mr. Underhill (a dragon named Yevaud in disguise),
> Blackbeard (a wizard from Pendor), Birt (a townsperson from Sattin's
> Island), Palani (the town's school teacher, and a maiden).
>
> "This story is also set in the world of Earthsea. Years ago, a dragon
> killed the Sealord of Pendor and coiled up in the Pendor Towers where
> he hid his treasure. Later the League decided to kill the dragon and
> grab the treasure, but when they got there the dragon - as well as
> the treasure - was already gone. Now, the new Sealord of Pendor is
> out to find the wizard who must have defeated the dragon and stolen
> the Pendor treasure."
>
> I found this on the web and was wondering if anybody could help me
> with a quote from that story....Anybody out there read/own this story?




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Thanks very much for your e-mal.  I'm an avid ULG reader & love her stuff.  Unfortunately, I haven't been abe to keep up with the website very well, lately, however, I do remember a posting which listed a number of her published short stories, including collections of  or by, JUST Ursula Le Guin. My suggestion is that you want just such a collection, if you cannot get the collection to which you refer.  The idea is that a collection of miscellaneous stores by various writers may or may not include the story you want.  I know that the collection to which you refer does have this story.  However, I'll bet you have tried many times to get it.I have 2 suggestons: 

#1 put out an inquiry on the "ekumen" website for the collection you wish.

#2 Name the story in a posting, and say you want IT.  Try both ways! 

 Also, make liberal use of used book stores.  Most have many wroks, collections, etc.,of stuff by ULG.  I'm sure you know a buncha used book stores.
Give it a whirl.  A really good used book store is here in Nashville: "The Bookman-Book Woman."  It's here in Country Music USA, aka, Nashville.
They are very helpful, and are both online and in the Nashville Phone Book. They will ship stuff.  Happy Hunting!
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: schwelle@libero.it 
  To: the-ekumen 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:21 AM
  Subject: Re:[the-ekumen] Digest Number 353



  >    Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:12:28 -0000
  >    From: "try_number_thirty" <dj9699@ev1.net>
  > Subject: Short stories...
  > 
  > I once read a short story that was very, very good. I've been 
  > searching the web to find it and was led here.
  > 
  > The short story was called "The Rule of Names", from a book of 
  > collected short stories called "The winds twelve quarters". The 
  > characters were Mr. Underhill (a dragon named Yevaud in disguise), 
  > Blackbeard (a wizard from Pendor), Birt (a townsperson from Sattin's 
  > Island), Palani (the town's school teacher, and a maiden).
  > 
  > "This story is also set in the world of Earthsea. Years ago, a dragon 
  > killed the Sealord of Pendor and coiled up in the Pendor Towers where 
  > he hid his treasure. Later the League decided to kill the dragon and 
  > grab the treasure, but when they got there the dragon - as well as 
  > the treasure - was already gone. Now, the new Sealord of Pendor is 
  > out to find the wizard who must have defeated the dragon and stolen 
  > the Pendor treasure."
  > 
  > I found this on the web and was wondering if anybody could help me 
  > with a quote from that story....Anybody out there read/own this story?
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > ________________________________________________________________________
  > ________________________________________________________________________
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  I read this story, some years ago, but I doubt to be of any help for you, since the book was in italic. 

  Paula


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Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:18:03 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Hi from a newbie!
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Hi!
I am a newbie here but I like Ursula Le Guin.  I had the chance to 
read a few of her books.  My favorite is The Left Hand of Darkness and 
the first book of A Wizard of Earthsea.

Annik



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From sentto-2266408-954-1061709743-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sun Aug 24 00:22:24 2003
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Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:21:30 -0500
Subject: [the-ekumen] Changing Planes (non-spoilerish endorsement)
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So I'm about five or six stories into UKL's new book Changing Planes, 
and while I want to avoid saying anything too spoilerish at this point, 
I just had to say what a huge kick I'm getting out of it.

I know that's not exactly stop-the-presses stuff coming from someone 
who started a Le Guin online community, but to be perfectly honest 
there was a time (I won't say when, but there was a time) when I 
worried that Le Guin's best work was behind her. I can't tell you all 
how thrilled I am that she's proven me so completely wrong about that, 
and done it regularly for a number of years now.

I'm especially impressed when I consider how prolific she's been 
lately, and the consistent quality of the books she's been publishing. 
It really feels like a blessing to be getting a new Le Guin book every 
year -- sometimes two! One of the few bright spots of living in this 
otherwise blighted Bushcroftian era.

I also can't help noting that I think Changing Planes just might be the 
*funniest* book that UKL has ever written. I can't think of another of 
her books that matches its lightness of tone or the amount of continual 
sly humor woven throughout it. Granted, Le Guin's humor is very subtle 
and not all readers may pick up on it -- we're not talking Monty Python 
here, or even Terry Pratchett. But the subtlety is part of what makes 
it so much fun to catch her little jokes.

When I first read the section at the beginning in which UKL outlines 
the book's underlying premise -- the means by which people "change 
planes" -- I'll confess that it seemed a little on the cute side to me. 
But I got past that pretty quick, because ultimately it's just a way of 
getting into the stories themselves, and the stories themselves are so 
good I'm starting to ration them out in order to make the book last 
longer.

At any rate, I just wanted to say that if you haven't picked up 
Changing Planes yet, you have a real treat in store for you.

best,
Dave Awl
_________________________________
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From sentto-2266408-955-1061719139-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sun Aug 24 02:59:28 2003
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Hi Annik, welcome,

I agree that Left Hand of Darkness and Wizard of Earthsea are really fine
books - but so are a lot of her later ones.  I envy you for only having read
a few - you have much joy to come!  although I still regularly reread the
books I first got to know in the 70s.

Have you read some of her more recent work like 4 ways to Forgiveness and
Tales from Earthsea?

Hannah

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sybille Cumes" <sybillecumes@yahoo.ca>
To: <the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 1:18 PM
Subject: [the-ekumen] Hi from a newbie!


> Hi!
> I am a newbie here but I like Ursula Le Guin.  I had the chance to
> read a few of her books.  My favorite is The Left Hand of Darkness and
> the first book of A Wizard of Earthsea.
>
> Annik
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>



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Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:30:37 EDT
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 357
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I'm about five or six stories into KALPA IMPERIAL, written (in Spanish) by=
=20
Ang=E9lica Gorodischer and translated by Ursula K. Le Guin, and it is wonde=
rful.=20=20
As a matter of fact, I'm beginning to wonder if it's a hoax and if Ang=E9li=
ca=20
Gorodischer is actually a pen name for UKL.  the stories have her flavor an=
d=20
they're the kind you want to read slowly and savor.  I'm impressed by the q=
uality=20
of the translation, especially as I knew Le Guin spoke French and studied a=
t=20
the Sorbonne, so I wouldn't have expected her to be that competent in anoth=
er=20
language.  Judith


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Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:38:37 -0700
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>I'm about five or six stories into KALPA IMPERIAL, written (in Spanish) by
>Ang=E9lica Gorodischer and translated by Ursula K. Le Guin, and it is=20
>wonderful.=20
>As a matter of fact, I'm beginning to wonder if it's a hoax and if Ang=E9l=
ica
>Gorodischer is actually a pen name for UKL.

They both attended Wiscon this year, and I saw them in the same place=20
at the same time, so I can confirm that Gorodischer does exist as a=20
separate entity! <g>  As for UKL's spanish abilities, she also=20
translated some poetry by Diana Bellessi; it was published in a=20
collection called _The Twins, The Dream_ / _Las Gemelas, El Sueno_,=20
which includes poems in the original language by each author and=20
translations into the other language by the other author.

She's also got a translation of poems by Gabriella Mistral coming out=20
this month, according to her website:
http://ursulakleguin.com/Mistral.html

Heather

--=20
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
heather whipple
hhw@sondryfolk.net
http://www.sondryfolk.net/hhw

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Thanks Dave, I'm on the library waiting list for it and you've just whetted 
my appetite nicely. I agree that her last few books have been among her best, 
it is humbling to think about how long and consistently she has written.
Rachel

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From sentto-2266408-959-1061800408-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Aug 25 01:33:32 2003
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:33:17 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Changing Planes - illustrations
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Um - hello from someone who lurks & never posts :-).

Anyway, the topic of cover art came up a long while back.  On a 
related note, I do think that Eric Beddow's drawings for Changing 
Planes actually add to the stories.  The illustration to "Feeling at 
Home with the Hennebet" made me giggle audibly when I saw it, and I'm 
not an audible-giggle type of person.  And it won't make you giggle 
unless you go find the book and start reading the story, and then 
turn the page and see the illustration.  I would be interested to 
learn how this particular collaboration came about, as Beddows 
usually illustrates children's books.  Does anyone know?

The cover art of the book is designed to sell the book and is not by 
Eric Beddows, by the way.








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From sentto-2266408-960-1061814765-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Aug 25 05:32:45 2003
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> Hi Annik, welcome,
> 
> I agree that Left Hand of Darkness and Wizard of
> Earthsea are really fine
> books - but so are a lot of her later ones.  I envy
> you for only having read
> a few - you have much joy to come!  although I still
> regularly reread the
> books I first got to know in the 70s.

I must say I discovered her book pretty late.  I had
read the Wizard of Earthsea late in High School but
soon forget it because I could not find other of her
books in the school's librairy.  But the light got
rekindle in College when I had to read Left Hand of
Darkness for a paper work.
 
> Have you read some of her more recent work like 4
> ways to Forgiveness and
> Tales from Earthsea?

I haven't yet but it is definitely on my wish list!
 
> Hannah
> 
Annik

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From sentto-2266408-961-1061829644-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Aug 25 09:40:44 2003
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:41:16 -0700
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Changing Planes (non-spoilerish endorsement)
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At 12:21 AM 8/24/2003 , Dave Awl wrote:

>I also can't help noting that I think Changing Planes just might be the 
>*funniest* book that UKL has ever written. I can't think of another of 
>her books that matches its lightness of tone or the amount of continual 
>sly humor woven throughout it.

The kind of light but sly wit in the introductory piece is something I've
previously seen only in some of her occasional pieces, like some speeches
and her little chapbooks, "The Art of Bunditsu" and "A Winter Solstice
Ritual for the Pacific Northwest."

There's some more sarcastic humor in some other stories, especially some in
_Compass Rose_ like "SQ" and "Sur", and the truly unforgettable (and
distinctly unique within her output) "Intracom".

- David Bratman


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From sentto-2266408-962-1061848072-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Aug 25 14:48:08 2003
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:47:32 -0500
Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Changing Planes (non-spoilerish endorsement)
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David Bratman wrote:

> There's some more sarcastic humor in some other stories, especially 
> some in
> _Compass Rose_ like "SQ" and "Sur", and the truly unforgettable (and
> distinctly unique within her output) "Intracom".

Yes, "Intracom" is laugh-out-loud funny; it would definitely belong on 
a list of UKL's top five funniest pieces.

"The Author of the Acacia Seeds" would probably be there, too.

Clearly, it isn't hard to find examples of very funny writing by UKL; I 
guess what seems different to me about Changing Planes is that humor is 
such a big part of the underlying tone of the entire book, rather than 
just showing up in a story here, a story there.

Dave
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From sentto-2266408-964-1061858050-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Aug 25 17:34:12 2003
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Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:50:35 -0500
Subject: [the-ekumen] Changing Planes - illustrations
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"telina_na" wrote:

> Um - hello from someone who lurks & never posts :-).

Hello back, and thanks for posting.

> Anyway, the topic of cover art came up a long while back.  On a
> related note, I do think that Eric Beddow's drawings for Changing
> Planes actually add to the stories.

I agree -- they're really wonderful and really add a lot to the book.

>   The illustration to "Feeling at Home with the Hennebet" made me 
> giggle audibly when I saw it, and I'm
> not an audible-giggle type of person.

I got a huge kick out of that one, too. Very well captured.

Dave
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From sentto-2266408-963-1061856665-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Aug 25 17:11:55 2003
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Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Changing Planes - illustrations
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telina_na scripsit:

> The illustration to "Feeling at 
> Home with the Hennebet" made me giggle audibly when I saw it, and I'm 
> not an audible-giggle type of person.  

I think it's a very nice touch that one of the women there, as well as
in one or two other illos, is visibly UKL, making her the "unnamed narrator".

-- 
John Cowan                              <jcowan@reutershealth.com>
http://www.reutershealth.com            http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
                .e'osai ko sarji la lojban.
                Please support Lojban!          http://www.lojban.org

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Dave and David,

One of my favorite examples of Le Guin's humor is in TEHANU, when Tenar sees 
Ged matter of factly begin doing the dishes, whereas her husband and son 
always assumed that was her job, and "It would be a pity, she thought, if he 
started fearing his dignity hung by a dishcloth."  Judith Dubois


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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From sentto-2266408-966-1062903428-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sat Sep  6 19:57:06 2003
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Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2003 01:58:23 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Feeling at Home with the Hennebet
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I'm curioius to hear how other people interpreted "Feeling at home 
with the Hennebet."  This is how I see it-
The Hennebet, as they age and make choices, are aware of the lives 
they might have had, or perhaps we should say might have, had they 
chosen differently.  This would explain why adolescents do not have 
much abba, because they have not made too many choices, and they also 
have not reflected as much as older people on the consequences of 
their choices, and how their lives could be lived differently.  The 
elderly have a lifetime of choices and plenty of reflection.  Thus 
Mrs. Yattava sees very clearly the 30 or 40 distinct paths there 
could have been (or, since she is aware of them, perhaps the term is 
are).  The Hali Tutave, I interpret then as a sort of cultural choice-
 Mrs. Tattave, and Mrs. Nannattula, and others on their plane, could 
have gone (or are going) in a different direction together, building 
a great temple, holding a great dance.  But they each chose 
differently, and each is still living, sort of, at the same time, the 
choice that was not chosen.  Mrs Nannattula's correcting her 'am" 
to "are" would then be because there are different lives in her.  
When Annup explains to the narrator why the elderly have more votes, 
he says, "they come back to you...or you come back tothem...if you 
can keep them in mind."  If you can remember the times when you might 
have gone differently.  The unnua question is also resolved- Unnua is 
everything.  When anything is born, before it has done anything at 
all, opened its mouth or rolled over or eaten, it is whole.  It has 
not chosen.  It has every possibility.  But it choses- the unnua 
dissipates, as it eats the courses of a meal, as it drinks from the 
full jug.  Mrs. Tattave has abba, a nearing to unnua, because she is 
so aware of what might have been (but she is, too) that she wanders 
in and out of her life as people from our plane see it.  
Specifically, on page 39, she states that she can only "live one 
life" for of course it is only one life we have to choose, but there 
are other persons who live this life too.  And indeed, if enough 
choices are made differently, we think diffent things, we live 
differently, we are different persons.  Yet she knows who she is, as 
Annup says.  To know the self is to know what your life is, what you 
have chosed, and not chosen, what you could be but are not.  Instead 
of living before any one possibilty is chosen, she can see them all.




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From sentto-2266408-967-1063139743-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Sep  9 13:35:41 2003
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Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2003 20:34:45 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Feeling at Home with the Hennebet
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Greta wrote:

> I'm curioius to hear how other people interpreted "Feeling at home 
> with the Hennebet."  This is how I see it-
> The Hennebet, as they age and make choices, are aware of the lives 
> they might have had, or perhaps we should say might have, had they 
> chosen differently.  

Greta, I really enjoyed reading your interpretation, and at first glance it makes a lot of 
sense to me, and brings the story into sharper focus. I don't have time at the moment 
to go back over the story and "test" your interpretation by looking for things that 
don't fit (I'll leave that to others out there if they want to try), but for the moment 
you've put plausible answers to some things that were only pleasantly puzzling 
questions for me on first reading. Well done!

best,
Dave


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From sentto-2266408-968-1063263758-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu Sep 11 00:02:39 2003
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Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 03:54:51 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] question about an article
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Several months ago when I was surfing http://www.ursulakleguin.com/  
I read an essay written by Ms. LeGuin talking about genre 
classifications of literature and writing.  Is it still there?  
Wanted to read it again.

Allan Rosewarne



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From sentto-2266408-969-1063808997-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Sep 17 07:29:57 2003
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Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 14:23:49 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Bryn Mawr Commencement Address (1986)
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UKL's Bryn Mawr Commencement Address (1986), previously published in 
Dancing at the Edge of the World, is now available online, by 
permission, on Serendip at Bryn Mawr College:

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/sci_cult/leguin/

Ann Dixon
Serenip webmaster





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From sentto-2266408-970-1064154497-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sun Sep 21 07:28:16 2003
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Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:28:14 -0500
Subject: [the-ekumen] News on Sci-Fi Network's Earthsea series
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Some good news and bad news from the Sci-Fi Channel ... Earthsea is 
going forward, but Left Hand of Darkness has been abandoned.

From:
http://www.scifi.com/sfw/current/screen.html#returning

> Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea SCI FI, to be determined
> Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea trilogy is being adapted into a   
> four-hour miniseries that will be executive-produced by Kevin Brown 
> and   Lawrence Bender. The miniseries will cover A Wizard of Earthsea 
> ,Tales of Earthsea and Tombs of Atuan , and tell the story of an   
> awkward boy who becomes a wizard's apprentice, and what happens to him 
> when he   discovers Sparrowhawk is his true name. As he begins his 
> transition into   becoming a man, his journey will pit him against an 
> evil that may be connected   to him. While this mini is still going 
> forward, the previously announced Left Hand of Darkness is no longer 
> being developed.

Notice that the synopsis above gets at least one major detail very 
wrong ... hopefully it's a mistake on the part of the columnist and not 
a misstep by the screenwriters.

I also can't help including the following, since I suspect many here 
will be interested:

> A Wrinkle In Time ABC, late in 2004
> The Wonderful World of Disney will present the Madeleine L'Engle   
> classic children's tale as a four-hour miniseries over two consecutive 
> Sunday   evenings. The story crosses the boundaries of time and space 
> when two   children, Meg and Charles Wallace, and their neighbor, 
> Calvin O'Keefe, go on a   journey to find the children's scientist 
> father, who has disappeared. With the   help of three strange women, 
> the children must travel to the desolate planet   of Camazotz, where a 
> repressed society of beings has been enslaved by an evil   force. The 
> children and their friends discover it's up to them to rescue their   
> father. The miniseries was directed by John Harrison from a screenplay 
> and was   written by Susan Shilliday. Due to reshooting of some the 
> special effects,   there's been a delay in airing of this mini.

Wow! I've long wondered if we'd ever see a movie version of Wrinkle in 
Time. It's one of my childhood favorites ... I really hope they don't 
ruin it.

Dave

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Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 18:27:59 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Ursula K. Le Guin interviewed in AWP "The Writer's Chronicle"
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She's interviewed this month in "The Writer's Chronicles." The
interview is not posted on the AWP website but there is info on how to
get the journal:

http://www.awpwriter.org/magazine/articles.htm

If you are an AWP member or belong to an AWP member institution (such
as a MFA creative writing program), you may have very easy access to
"The Writer's Chronicle," but if not, you may want to subscribe. It's
a very good resource for the writer.

Le Guin speaks of reading, the writing modes in various stories,
parodying Star Trek, language, feminism, and much more. A delight to
read as it offers many insights into the writer she is.



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From sentto-2266408-972-1068177342-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu Nov  6 19:55:40 2003
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Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 03:43:58 +0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Olds (as opposed to news)
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Hey!

Found this by chance in the library:

Index on Censorship 6/96 'Lost Words', an issue given over to fiction.

In it was a UKL story, 'The Diary of the Rose', which dates from 1976.  
I don't have a copy of it at home and it was as good as finding a new 
story. But better still, I had been grumping to myself over the day's 
newspaper headlines, which were perhaps grimmer than usual, and I found 
what seemed an apt quote for now:-

'Only persons in authority can have secrets. Their secrets are all 
good, even when they are lies.'

I know we have played the game of find-a-quote before, but it seems 
more amusing when it's UKL  (because of her interest in the I Ching), 
hence worth playing again.

Sooo........ your turn!


chiz chiz

rdg


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From sentto-2266408-973-1068396966-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sun Nov  9 08:56:07 2003
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Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 16:57:52 -0000
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Olds (as opposed to news)
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Hi Roddy, I was thinking it was time someone got some conversation going
again.

Thought - recognise that story title isn't it part of The Compass Rose
collection.  So I looked it up and it is - next to the lovely 'The White
Donkey' in the East section of the book.  I had forgotten the content of the
story though.

Can you explain a bit more what you are asking us to do.  Any old UKL quote
that seems to fit the current news?  Or looking for good quotes from Diary
of a Rose (just took time out to reread it).  Or something else entirely?
Hannah

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Roddy Graham" <roddy.graham@virgin.net>
To: "[the ekumen]" <the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 3:43 AM
Subject: [the-ekumen] Olds (as opposed to news)


> Hey!
>
> Found this by chance in the library:
>
> Index on Censorship 6/96 'Lost Words', an issue given over to fiction.
>
> In it was a UKL story, 'The Diary of the Rose', which dates from 1976.
> I don't have a copy of it at home and it was as good as finding a new
> story. But better still, I had been grumping to myself over the day's
> newspaper headlines, which were perhaps grimmer than usual, and I found
> what seemed an apt quote for now:-
>
> 'Only persons in authority can have secrets. Their secrets are all
> good, even when they are lies.'
>
> I know we have played the game of find-a-quote before, but it seems
> more amusing when it's UKL  (because of her interest in the I Ching),
> hence worth playing again.
>
> Sooo........ your turn!
>
>
> chiz chiz
>
> rdg
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>



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From sentto-2266408-974-1068463606-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Nov 10 03:26:47 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:20:21 +0000
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Olds (as opposed to news)
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Hey Hannah!

I don't know  or use the I Ching. On the other hand, I'm very fond of 
quotes (and proverbs, riddles, and cliches), as a way of responding to 
any old situation (it might be to deal with a stushie about which child 
gets to sit on the loo during teeth-brushing, or it might be in the 
middle of a heavy conversation about the ways of the world, or it might 
be in response to an annoyed customer who just needs the conversational 
ball struck back into their court in a content-free way).

I find it difficult to quote UKL. It's as if her stories are built up 
like an arch. If you remove the keystone and show it to people - 'Look, 
here is the keystone' - they are more likely to notice the pile of 
rubble that is left after the keystone is removed. So you end up trying 
to describe the whole arch, and because you aren't UKL, it doesn't 
quite work.

So I was pleased to find that line about official lies, and I would 
like to have more. From anywhere in LeGuin's work. Not necessarily 
explicitly linked to the news.

I'm gonna rummage about now, and see if I can't find the news stories 
which started this chain of thought.


chiz chiz

rdg


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From sentto-2266408-975-1068465091-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Nov 10 03:51:31 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:55:01 +1100
Subject: [the-ekumen] Le Guin for kids: Fire and Stone
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My daughter is a little over 3 years old. She is enjoying the Le Guin 
childrens book, Fire and Stone. It's her first introduction to Le Guin. 
She has had me read it so many times she has memorised the Sunrise song.

It's a great childrens book featuring a dragon and the children who 
react with some intelligence, instead of the fear displayed by the 
adults. The full page graphics are marvellous too.

I recommend it for those on the list with very yound children!

Takver
http://www.takver.com




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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:39:06 -0500
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Roddy Graham scripsit:

> I don't know  or use the I Ching. 

61. Chung Fu / Inner Truth

---------
---------      above Sun The Gentle, Wind
---   ---
---   ---
---------      below Tui The Joyous, Lake
---------

The Judgement

    Inner Truth. Pigs and fishes.
    Good fortune.
    It furthers one to cross the great water.
    Perseverance furthers.

The Image

    Wind over lake: the image of Inner Truth.
    Thus the superior man discusses criminal cases
    In order to delay executions.

> any old situation (it might be to deal with a stushie about which child 

Googling for "stushie", which I had not heard or seen before, led me
down a most interesting path.  Thanks!

> So I was pleased to find that line about official lies, and I would 
> like to have more. From anywhere in LeGuin's work. Not necessarily 
> explicitly linked to the news.

See below.

-- 
"While staying with the Asonu, I met a man from     John Cowan
the Candensian plane, which is very much like       jcowan@reutershealth.com
ours, only more of it consists of Toronto."         http://:www.ccil.org/~cowan
        --the unnamed narrator of Le Guin's _Changing Planes_

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From sentto-2266408-977-1068484814-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Nov 10 09:22:20 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 11:01:26 -0500
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin for kids: Fire and Stone
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Thank you for this post. I have a 2 and 4 yo that I want to introduce
to great fantasy and adventure early through books. Any other 
recommendations?

Takver wrote:
> My daughter is a little over 3 years old. She is enjoying the Le Guin
> childrens book, Fire and Stone. It's her first introduction to Le Guin.
> She has had me read it so many times she has memorised the Sunrise song.
> 
> It's a great childrens book featuring a dragon and the children who
> react with some intelligence, instead of the fear displayed by the
> adults. The full page graphics are marvellous too.
> 
> I recommend it for those on the list with very yound children!
> 
> Takver
> http://www.takver.com
> 
> 
> 
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From sentto-2266408-978-1068547613-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Nov 11 02:46:53 2003
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Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:12:19 +0200
Subject: UKL quatations (was: Re: [the-ekumen] Olds (as opposed to news))
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Roddy Graham wrote:
> I find it difficult to quote UKL.
[...]
> So I was pleased to find that line about official lies, and I would 
> like to have more.

I collect quotations like some people collect stamps. I love them. Here 
are my UKL quatations:

"To have and bring up kids is to be as immersed in life as one can be, 
but it does not always follow that one drowns. A lot of us can swim."
(Dancing At The Edge of The World)

"Imagination is, after all, an intensely practical activity."
(Dancing At The Edge of The World)

"The only thing that makes life possible is permanent, intolerable 
uncertainty: not knowing what comes next."
(The Left Hand of Darkness)

"Primitiveness and civilization are degrees of the same thing. If 
civilization has an opposite, it is war."
(The Left Hand of Darkness)

"To oppose something is to maintain it."
(The Left Hand of Darkness)

"Truth is a matter of the imagination."
(The Left Hand of Darkness)

To be whole is to be part;
true voyage is return."
(The Dispossessed)

"Exuberance is perhaps the essential quality of life."
(The Dispossessed)

"If you can see a thing whole, it seems that it's always beutiful."
(The Dispossessed)

"Though only society can give security and stability, only the 
individual, the person, has the power of moral choice - the power of 
change, the essentyal function of life."
(The Dispossessed)

"If we choose to give the child the intensity of individual love, we 
can't spare her what comes with that, the risk of pain. Pain from us and 
through us."
(The Dispossessed)

"As for ideology, the hell with it. All of it."
(http://www.sfsite.com/03a/ul123.htm)

"Anyhow, I have never written a plot-driven novel. I admire plot from a 
vast distance, with unenvious admiration. I don't do it; never did it; 
don't want to; can't. My stories are driven (rather slowly and 
erratically, with pauses to admire apparently irrelevant scenery) by a 
different chauffeur."

"Love doesn't just sit there, like a stone; it has to be made, like 
bread, remade all the time, made new."

-- 
Have fun,                "You teach best what you most need to learn."
Yonat.                                                 -- Richard Bach




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On Monday, Nov 10, 2003, at 13:39 Europe/London, John Cowan wrote:

> 61. Chung Fu / Inner Truth
>
> ---------
> ---------      above Sun The Gentle, Wind
> ---   ---
> ---   ---
> ---------      below Tui The Joyous, Lake
> ---------
>
> The Judgement
>
>     Inner Truth. Pigs and fishes.
>     Good fortune.
>     It furthers one to cross the great water.
>     Perseverance furthers.
>
> The Image
>
>     Wind over lake: the image of Inner Truth.
>     Thus the superior man discusses criminal cases
>     In order to delay executions.
>

Now that's just waaaay too oracular for me

>> any old situation (it might be to deal with a stushie about which 
>> child
>
> Googling for "stushie", which I had not heard or seen before, led me
> down a most interesting path.  Thanks!
>

I just googled 'stushie' too. Heh heh heh.



chiz chiz

rdg


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From sentto-2266408-979-1068555483-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Nov 11 04:58:06 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 07:57:56 EST
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 367
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Although I suspect i've already given this quote as one of my favorites, I 
can't resist mentioning it again:

     "Cats may be green somewhere else, but the cats here don't care."

that's from Always Coming Home, but the problem with Le Guin is that when you 
look up one quote, you necessarily come across half a dozen more that are 
just as interesting.  And just above the cats, I found this:

"It is true that everything is and it is true that nothing is.  These words 
deny each other wholly.  The world of our life is the weaving that holds them 
together while holding them apart.  The world is the bridge between the walls 
of a canyon, the banks of a river in an abyss, and words are the birds that fly 
across and across.  They cannot be in two places at the same time.  But they 
can cross and come back.  It takes all one's life long to cross the bridge to 
the other side.  But the birds fly back and forth across the canyon, singing 
and speaking from one side to the other."

And I also found another saying that has always puzzled me.  Perhaps some 
wiser head can help me understand.

Le Guin defines "mindfulness" as "keeping many different things in mind and 
observing their relations and proportions."  She says "To be singleminded is to 
be unmindful."   Then, just a few lines down she says, "The great hunter: one 
arrow in his quiver, one thought in his head."  

The idea that a great hunter only needs one arrow is an old one, but isn't Le 
Guin being ironical here?  Elsewhere in the book a man has difficulty in 
being accepted as an intellectual, because among the Valley people women are 
considered superior to men in that aspect.  How do others read these lines?

Judy


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judyldubois@aol.com scripsit:

> Le Guin defines "mindfulness" as "keeping many different things in
> mind and observing their relations and proportions."  She says "To
> be singleminded is to be unmindful."   Then, just a few lines down
> she says, "The great hunter: one arrow in his quiver, one thought in
> his head."
> 
> The idea that a great hunter only needs one arrow is an old one,
> but isn't Le Guin being ironical here?

I think the line is doubly ironic.  The "one thought in his head" refers
to concentrated as opposed to diffuse attention.  Concentrated attention
focuses the entire consciousness on a single thing, cutting out or
disregarding everything else.  Diffuse attention spreads it around,
noticing some things more than others, each according to its importance.
Some tasks, like playing Chopin, absolutely demand concentrated
attention; others, like minding (appropriate word!) children, demand
diffuse attention.  (I've done both; I don't know which is harder.)

Now everybody knows that most men spend more of their time in concentrated
attention and value it more, often to the point of devaluing diffuse
attention completely.  This saying is a woman turning this point of
view back upon itself, calling men foolish for their excessive use of
concentrated attention.

But Le Guin is also being ironic at a second level.  Because hunting,
mostly male pursuit though it is, demands a high level of diffuse
attention most of the time.  Only near the kill, stalk or ambush as the
case may be, is concentrated attention vital.  So a real hunter can't have
"one thought in his head", except just when he needs to.

(There is a flame-war very near here about whether these gender tendencies
in attention style are nature or nurture.  I'm not going there, because
I think the question is quite literally meaningless.)

-- 
XQuery Blueberry DOM                            John Cowan
Entity parser dot-com                           jcowan@reutershealth.com
    Abstract schemata                           http://www.reutershealth.com
    XPointer errata                             http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Infoset Unicode BOM                                 --Richard Tobin

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Roddy Graham scripsit:

> Now that's just waaaay too oracular for me

Well, it isn't the one I would have picked either.  I asked the oracle,
"What is the best introduction to the I Ching" and used that to seed
the random numbers.  This is what came out.

-- 
John Cowan  www.ccil.org/~cowan  jcowan@reutershealth.com  www.reutershealth.com
[P]olice in many lands are now complaining that local arrestees are insisting
on having their Miranda rights read to them, just like perps in American TV
cop shows.  When it's explained to them that they are in a different country,
where those rights do not exist, they become outraged.  --Neal Stephenson

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From sentto-2266408-983-1068580012-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Nov 11 11:46:54 2003
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Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:49:01 -0000
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin for kids: Fire and Stone
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I have not ever seen any UKL books for young kids - are they published in
the UK? are they more recent than when my kids (now 18 & 14) were young?  I
would expect to have spotted UKL books had they been around earlier as I am
a
lifetime - well adulthood - fan.

But allow me to recommend  some fantasy books I enjoyed with my daughters
when small:
'There's no such thing as a dragon' by Jack Kent ISBN 0 216 91712 3
'War and Peas' by Michael Foreman ISBN 0 14 050243 2
'King Change-a-lot' by Babette Cole ISBN 0 00 663151 7

Hannah

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Vincent" <vincent@xaymaca.com>
To: <the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin for kids: Fire and Stone


> Thank you for this post. I have a 2 and 4 yo that I want to introduce
> to great fantasy and adventure early through books. Any other
> recommendations?
>
> Takver wrote:
> > My daughter is a little over 3 years old. She is enjoying the Le Guin
> > childrens book, Fire and Stone. It's her first introduction to Le Guin.
> > She has had me read it so many times she has memorised the Sunrise song.
> >
> > It's a great childrens book featuring a dragon and the children who
> > react with some intelligence, instead of the fear displayed by the
> > adults. The full page graphics are marvellous too.
> >
> > I recommend it for those on the list with very yound children!
> >
> > Takver
> > http://www.takver.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
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From sentto-2266408-984-1069209296-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Nov 18 18:34:55 2003
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Well, while sorting through some papers, I found a print out from 
May 2002 (well, I guess it was more than a few months ago).  The 
essay title is "On Despising Genres", and it is very good.

Allan Rosewarne
W/T forever together - taraswizard
plan C - http://pub78.ezboard.com/bplanckittiens

--- In the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com, "n9sqt" <taraswizard@j...> wrote:
> Several months ago when I was surfing 
http://www.ursulakleguin.com/  
> I read an essay written by Ms. LeGuin talking about genre 
> classifications of literature and writing.  Is it still there?  
> Wanted to read it again.
> 
> Allan Rosewarne


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From sentto-2266408-985-1069212390-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Nov 18 19:27:18 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 03:21:01 +0000
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 367 (olds, not news)
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On Tuesday, Nov 11, 2003, at 12:57 Europe/London,  (whoops, there goes 
another week) judyldubois@aol.com wrote:

> Although I suspect i've already given this quote as one of my 
> favorites, I
> can't resist mentioning it again:
>
>      "Cats may be green somewhere else, but the cats here don't care."
>
> that's from Always Coming Home, but the problem with Le Guin is that 
> when you
> look up one quote, you necessarily come across half a dozen more that 
> are
> just as interesting.  And just above the cats, I found this:
>
> "It is true that everything is and it is true that nothing is.  These 
> words
> deny each other wholly.  The world of our life is the weaving that 
> holds them
> together while holding them apart.  The world is the bridge between 
> the walls
> of a canyon, the banks of a river in an abyss, and words are the birds 
> that fly
> across and across.  They cannot be in two places at the same time.  
> But they
> can cross and come back.  It takes all one's life long to cross the 
> bridge to
> the other side.  But the birds fly back and forth across the canyon, 
> singing
> and speaking from one side to the other."
>

Now this is what I was thinking about. A great quote, but you could 
definitely not call it epigrammatical (or even just brief). To quote 
LeGuin, it seems you need paragraphs. I wonder if she ever wrote 
haiku...


chiz chiz

rdg


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From sentto-2266408-986-1069213028-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Tue Nov 18 19:37:06 2003
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Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 03:29:41 +0000
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On Tuesday, Nov 11, 2003, at 12:57 Europe/London, judyldubois@aol.com 
wrote:

> Le Guin defines "mindfulness" as "keeping many different things in 
> mind and
> observing their relations and proportions."  She says "To be 
> singleminded is to
> be unmindful."   Then, just a few lines down she says, "The great 
> hunter: one
> arrow in his quiver, one thought in his head."
>
> The idea that a great hunter only needs one arrow is an old one, but 
> isn't Le
> Guin being ironical here?  Elsewhere in the book a man has difficulty 
> in
> being accepted as an intellectual, because among the Valley people 
> women are
> considered superior to men in that aspect.  How do others read these 
> lines?
>

"The great hunter": I think it's very easy to take that as being gently 
mocking, but when I pay close attention, it can come out completely 
straight. My reading is that UKL has delineated these two modes of 
thought, but doesn't make a value judgement.


chiz chiz

rdg


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From sentto-2266408-987-1069274792-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Wed Nov 19 12:53:29 2003
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I liked John Cowan's explanation of diffuse attention and concentrated 
attention and thought it quite apt to the quote
 "The great 
> hunter: one
> arrow in his quiver, one thought in his head."  
I also liked the expression "gently mocking" which describes a lot of Le 
Guin's comments on men.  Sorry if my quotation about words as birds was too long, 
but i had forgotten that passage, and got a bit carried away in my joy at 
rediscovering it.  

Actually, some of the poems in ALWAYS COMING HOME are very close to haiku.

       Loss
"My heart is heavy.
It lies down crossways,
Stopping my breathing,
A stone of grieving.  

       First Love
Weeding tomatoes,
the vines smell bitter
in the hot sunlight.
A long time ago.


And on the following page there is a "flyting" which is perhaps a bit less 
gentle than usual.

There was a man in Chumo
had an idea, once,
for a few minutes.

So she can be brief, and effective.  In the Chapter "Some Brief Valley Texts" 
the part entitled "The Cats Here Don't Care" is an interesting collection of 
sayings.

Judy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 20:14:59 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] The Dispossessed
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How is Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed" a commentary on society 
and the individual?



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Christine scripsit:

> How is Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed" a commentary on society 
> and the individual?

Do your own homework assignments.

-- 
Only do what only you can do.           John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com>
  --Edsger W. Dijkstra,                 http://www.reutershealth.com
    deceased 6 August 2002              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan

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Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 08:30:25 -0600
Subject: [the-ekumen] RE: homework
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 >
>Christine scripsit:
>
> > How is Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed" a commentary on society
> > and the individual?

John replied:
>Do your own homework assignments.

With this tag:
>Only do what only you can do.          >
>   --Edsger W. Dijkstra,                  >     deceased 6 August 2002


Ya know, I'm all for "doing your own homework". But not everybody is a 
natural at interpreting & analyzing literature....and sometimes hearing 
another's take on such a subject can be a catalyst for "getting it". A jump 
start, a possible "ah-ha" moment etc. I doubt sincerely  ( IF this is a 
homework assignment )that the poster would have gotten enough commentary to 
plagerize her entire paper. She might have gotten that lightbulb popping on 
in her head however, and been on her way to actually learning how to think 
about what she has read in a more critical way. I can't see the harm in 
that.
And I had to shake my head at the quote tagged on here. What if untangling 
the social commentary from the fiction just isn't something Christine *can 
do*....now, yet or ever? Not everybody who reads *has* to be able to analyze 
the author's political or social motivations. Heck, some of us still read 
and enjoy LeGuin even if we don't always 'get' her, horrifying as that may 
be to our seemingly wholly holy intellectual faction here.
This sort of thing has come up before on this list although I have no idea 
if the same poster(s) were involved. Personally, I get really irked at this 
kind of snooty,condescending attitude. Why be on a discussion list if you 
aren't willing to discuss with others...especially if you perceive them , or 
their questions,to be beneath you, as this curt reply sounded to my ears. I 
know there are some highly educated and perceptive and intelligent people 
here, with invaluable ideas and comments that could be used to help the 
'ignoramuses' that do come here too.I guess I must question the value of all 
that learned wisdom if one must qualify to benefit from it in any small way. 
I shudder now to think that if *I* post a question here someone is going to 
judge whether a)my motives are pure enough and b) I deserve an answer.
John, if *you* don't want to help, please don't! I'm positive she will live 
without your insights...but don't try to squelch the rest of the list with 
your pedantic one-liners .If they do want to offer suggestions or insights, 
anybody replying to her now might be afraid they will be labeled as a 
cheater-enabler by the judgement commitee you must be  heading.
I am not a college student,and I am not usually very interested in deeper 
social/political analyzations, but there's always the off chance I too might 
learn something myself from hearing such a discussion.
One last thought....if Christine DID plan to have the list "write her paper" 
for her, what the heck? It's her education. - A lurking ignoramus -Mindy 
Winchester

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Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 16:41:21 +0100
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Op 4 Dec 2003 om 8:30 was Mindy zo lief om te schrijven:

> >Christine scripsit:
> >
> > > How is Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed" a commentary 
on society
> > > and the individual?
> 
> John replied:
> >Do your own homework assignments.
> 
> 
> Ya know, I'm all for "doing your own homework". But not 
everybody is a
> natural at interpreting & analyzing literature....and sometimes
> hearing another's take on such a subject can be a catalyst for
> "getting it". A jump start, a possible "ah-ha" moment etc. I doubt
> sincerely  ( IF this is a homework assignment )that the poster 
would
> have gotten enough commentary to plagerize her entire paper. 

My reaction is a bit between John's and Mindy.
I have no problems to share my thoughts on any of LeGuin's books 
(the ones I've read that is) and I could surely come up with some 
ideas about the Dispossed and how it is a commentary and such. 
But the way the question was phrased (by Christine) was like it was 
an assignment, a bit like write this essay for me! (Christine, if you 
didn't intend to make it sound like that, I am sorry but it is always 
good to learn how people interpret your words<smile>).
If Christine is indeed looking for help with homework she could 
perhaps tell us what she thinks about the book (the dispossesed), 
what she likes about it and dislikes, if she has any idea what 
comments you could read in it on society and the individual. (what 
do you think about the two societies discribed? Would you think 
either is individualistic. More or less so than the society you live in?

If you give a starter for a discussion/conversation about the 
dispossesed I'll be happy join, but I don't feel like writing someone 
else' homework.   

Rowena  

PS: a quick introduction of myself since this is my first post here: 
Rowena, 28 years of age, from Amsterdam, the Netherlands, 
student of philosophy, part-time teacher of computerskills, book-
lover....etc. 




-----
www.planet.nl/~alber925/amella.html



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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:09:57 -0500
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Rowena scripsit:

> My reaction is a bit between John's and Mindy.
[big snip]

In fact, I agree with every word of what you said.

> PS: a quick introduction of myself since this is my first post here: 
> Rowena, 28 years of age, from Amsterdam, the Netherlands, 
> student of philosophy, part-time teacher of computerskills, book-
> lover....etc. 

The difference between us, I think, is that I'm 45 and have seen waaaay
too many questions like Christine's and know all too well what a time-sink
they are.

There's a good resource on this subject:  How to Ask Questions The Smart
Way (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html).  It's rather
long, and much of it is specific to computer-tech questions, but the
sections "Introduction", "Don't post homework questions", "Dealing with
rudeness", and "On not reacting like a loser" are highly relevant.

-- 
John Cowan  jcowan@reutershealth.com  www.ccil.org/~cowan  www.reutershealth.com
"If he has seen farther than others,
        it is because he is standing on a stack of dwarves."
                --Mike Champion, describing Tim Berners-Lee (adapted)

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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 12:23:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] RE: homework
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Mindy Winchester scripsit:

> And I had to shake my head at the quote tagged on here. What if untangling 
> the social commentary from the fiction just isn't something Christine *can 
> do*....now, yet or ever? 

Maybe not.  But she'll have trouble in a literature class in that case.

> Why be on a discussion list if you aren't willing to discuss with others

I am indeed willing, indeed eager, to discuss any of Le Guin's works.
But I am not willing to do someone else's work for her, especially
presented in such a bald and obvious way.  Rowena's comments on how to
ask worthwhile, interesting, discussion-worthy questions are very much
to the point.

> their questions,to be beneath you, as this curt reply sounded to my ears.  

If I really didn't give a hoot, I wouldn't answer at all -- always the
cheapest and easiest approach.  On the contrary, I am trying to educate
Christine about what isn't appropriate behavior on a public mailing list.

> I shudder now to think that if *I* post a question here someone is going to 
> judge whether a)my motives are pure enough and b) I deserve an answer.

We always have to make judgments about whether we should post replies or
not -- ars longa, vita brevis ("art is long, but life is short").  In the
case of this email I am writing, I consider it worthwhile trying to help
you see what I was doing and why.

> John, if *you* don't want to help, please don't! 

On the contrary, I do want to help: the help doesn't necessarily take the
form Christine seems to have wanted, but that's often the best kind of help,
the kind that gets you off the Mishnory road altogether, rather than just
turning your back and walking away from Mishnory.

> If they do want to offer suggestions or insights, 
> anybody replying to her now might be afraid they will be labeled as a 
> cheater-enabler by the judgement commitee you must be  heading.

Perhaps.  To speak is to risk being judged by others.

> One last thought....if Christine DID plan to have the list "write her paper" 
> for her, what the heck? It's her education. 

"The penalty for winning by cheating is winning.  By cheating."
	--Richard Leff

The social organism suffers, and badly, if people fake learning.  I don't
have any college degrees myself, BTW, so I have no specific axe to grind
in this case.

And yeah, I like aphorisms, whether you think of them as "pedantic one-liners"
or not.

-- 
"We are lost, lost.  No name, no business, no Precious, nothing.  Only empty.
Only hungry: yes, we are hungry.  A few little fishes, nassty bony little
fishes, for a poor creature, and they say death.  So wise they are; so just,
so very just."  --Gollum        jcowan@reutershealth.com  www.ccil.org/~cowan

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From sentto-2266408-998-1070582008-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 17:58:57 2003
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:03:39 -0800
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Another good possibility is that 'Christine' is actual a professional-essay 
writer for lazy students!

I've seen "professional research" (sigh) infect listservs before. Sorry 
Christine if your not!  But any misunderstanding DID start from that terrible 
one-line message.  Even a single introductory sentence would have 
probably garnered an actual response to your QUESTION! So far it's been 
4-5 replying to your message, but no takers the 'answering questions' 
department. Rather amusing actually.

Tom Woodsworth
Vancouver Island

>===== Original Message From Rowena <morgaine@zonnet.nl> =====
>Op 4 Dec 2003 om 8:30 was Mindy zo lief om te schrijven:
>
>> >Christine scripsit:
>> >
>> > > How is Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed" a commentary
>on society
>> > > and the individual?
>>
>> John replied:
>> >Do your own homework assignments.
>>
>



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Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:50:01 -0700
Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: homework
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jcowan@reutershealth.com writes: 

> Rowena scripsit: 
> 
>> My reaction is a bit between John's and Mindy.
> [big snip] 
> 
> In fact, I agree with every word of what you said. 
> 
>> PS: a quick introduction of myself since this is my first post here: 
>> Rowena, 28 years of age, from Amsterdam, the Netherlands, 
>> student of philosophy, part-time teacher of computerskills, book-
>> lover....etc. 
> 
> The difference between us, I think, is that I'm 45 and have seen waaaay
> too many questions like Christine's and know all too well what a time-sink
> they are. 
> 
> There's a good resource on this subject:  How to Ask Questions The Smart
> Way (http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html).  It's rather
> long, and much of it is specific to computer-tech questions, but the
> sections "Introduction", "Don't post homework questions", "Dealing with
> rudeness", and "On not reacting like a loser" are highly relevant.

   I agree entirely with Mindy and hardly at all with John.  I am not a 
member of a "hacker culture" and I don't see any reason to privilege an, 
essentially, elitist mindset.  I teach: which means that I have to answer 
stupid questions.  Questions, by their nature, are intrinsically stupid: 
they imply ignorance of a subject.  If the only questions to be answered are 
"marginal" ones, where someone must first display an array of erudition 
before admitting to this one, tiny piece of ignorance at the margin of his 
extraordinary knowledge, then we create this huge, impassable gulf between 
those who know and those who don't know.  Maybe this makes sense on 
technical lists, but I don't believe that The Ekumen is one of them.
   In addition to being an answerer of stupid questions, I am also sometimes 
an asker of them.  I've been shoved off a few too many times by people who 
felt, essentially, that I wasn't a member of the club, and so wasn't really 
permitted to ask a question.  This was true *regardless* of how much effort 
and study I had put into the question.  It is therefore impossible for me to 
concur with John's view.  And I guess that I have seen as many stupid 
questions as, or more than John has.
   I know that such questions can take up an enormous amount of time, if you 
allow them to.  But then nobody is *obliged* to answer questions.  I agree 
that this sounds a little like a homework question; but my preferred 
response would be to ask further questions of the questioner: what do you 
mean by the question?  What are your thoughts on the subject? 

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From sentto-2266408-996-1070568453-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Thu Dec  4 14:01:29 2003
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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 15:06:11 -0500
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dsalo@softhome.net scripsit:

> I teach: which means that I have to answer 
> stupid questions.  Questions, by their nature, are intrinsically stupid: 
> they imply ignorance of a subject.  

I agree that questions imply ignorance of a subject.  I don't think that
makes them stupid intrinsically.  There are dumb questions and smart ones.
Smart ones show evidence that the asker has done her homework (literally,
in this case!) before asking for help.  "Shoveling" questions don't show
that evidence.

> [W]e create this huge, impassable gulf between 
> those who know and those who don't know.  

Not at all.  We create a gulf between those who try and those who don't.

>    In addition to being an answerer of stupid questions, I am also sometimes 
> an asker of them.  I've been shoved off a few too many times by people who 
> felt, essentially, that I wasn't a member of the club, and so wasn't really 
> permitted to ask a question.  

I understand and sympathize with this position, and have been in it myself.

> This was true *regardless* of how much effort
> and study I had put into the question.  It is therefore impossible for me to 
> concur with John's view.

Because some people mindlessly apply "If you're not in the Inner Ring
you get no help from me", which I certainly condemn, does that mean "If
you are trying to cheat (yourself and others), you get no help from me"
is every bit as culpable?  I didn't say "Go away, you troll", after all;
I said "Do your own homework".

If Christine comes out with a posting that says this is not a verbatim
homework assignment, I will eat my words and strongly consider posting
everything I know about the subject.  Christine is on her honor here,
as am I.

> And I guess that I have seen as many stupid 
> questions as, or more than John has.

Very probably.  :-)

>    I know that such questions can take up an enormous amount of time, if you 
> I agree
> that this sounds a little like a homework question;

Oh, come on; the very wording has the true stink of chalk-dust and old sweat.
:-)

> but my preferred 
> response would be to ask further questions of the questioner: what do you 
> mean by the question?  What are your thoughts on the subject? 

Fair enough.  I'm having a bad week, month, and year.  But my motives
are good ones, really.

-- 
John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com>     http://www.reutershealth.com
"But no living man am I!  You look upon a woman.  Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter.
You stand between me and my lord and kin.  Begone, if you be not deathless.
For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him."

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Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 20:07:37 -0000
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Dispossessed
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Christine said - 

>How is Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed" a commentary on society 
>and the individual?

Christine, have you read The Dispossessed? 

Alison

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From: Rowena <morgaine@zonnet.nl>
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Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 00:05:07 +0100
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Op 4 Dec 2003 om 11:50 was dsalo@softhome.net zo lief om te schrijven:

 If the only
> questions to be answered are "marginal" ones, where someone must first
> display an array of erudition before admitting to this one, tiny piece
> of ignorance at the margin of his extraordinary knowledge, then we
> create this huge, impassable gulf between those who know and those who
> don't know. 

I share your concerns about elitist (unspoken) rules that exclude those that start 
at a different experience/knowledge level than the inner circle. I believe 
knowledge(ideas/skilsl) is to be shared and we all have to start somewhere. If 
someone posted a question phrased like "i've got this assignment about this 
book and they want me to discuss this or that aspect and I haven't got a clue 
how to do that. Can anyone please help?" I'd have no problem with that. I'd still 
not want to write the assignment but I'd do my best to be of assistance in as far 
as I am capable. 

According to the website Christine joined the third of December, she only posted 
one message and it sounded like an questoin from an assignment. To me this 
doesn't entice me to do my best to answer her question. 

I must say I find it remarkable that everyone here 'defending' Christine is saying 
nothing in answer to her question. 

Rowena, off to reread the Dispossed once more in happy anticipation of a 
fruitfull discussion of it.

-----
www.planet.nl/~alber925/amella.html


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From sentto-2266408-999-1070619855-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 02:24:15 2003
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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:14:20 +1100
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I get a couple of these kind of requests a day, so I'm not terribly
sympathetic to them.  I have seven hundred odd book reviews on my web
site, and you'd be amazed at the number of people who ask questions
like "Do you have a review of X?" (yes, I've written another seven
thousand reviews which I'm keeping hidden, but am willing to share
with you alone), "Can you write me a review of Y by 11pm?" (I don't
even know what timezone you're in), "What can you tell me about the
history of Vietnam?", and so forth.

What amazes me is not so much that people try to get others to
do their homework for them, but that they go about it so ineptly.
Consider the effect a rewording like

	"I really enjoyed _The Dispossessed_, but I'm confused by
	Le Guin's conflicting messages on the balance between the
	individual and society.  What do people think about this?"

I'm sure that would have produced at least a few paragraphs that could
have been cut-and-pasted into an essay.  I'm tempted to write some
guidelines "How do get other people to do your homework for you",
I'm sure it would be a really popular document.

Introducing myself... I'm a part-time network administrator and amateur
book reviewer, resident in Sydney, Australia.  More than anyone wants
to know about me can be found at http://danny.oz.au/ and my Le Guin
reviews are at http://dannyreviews.com/a/Ursula_K._Le_Guin.html

Danny.



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From sentto-2266408-1000-1070621454-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Fri Dec  5 02:50:56 2003
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Op 5 Dec 2003 om 11:14, was Danny Yee zo lief om te schrijven:

> I get a couple of these kind of requests a day, so I'm not terribly
> sympathetic to them.  

<knip>
 "What can you tell me about the
> history of Vietnam?", and so forth.

I once got "what in the history of the Netherlands can explain he 
attitude towards sexuality of the Dutch, and how do you explain the 
difference with the United States?"

that is not even 'can you do your homework for me?' but 'can you 
write my disertation for me?'

Rowena 
					


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Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 07:47:50 -0500
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Dispossessed
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>How is Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed" a commentary on society
>and the individual?

     Someone(s) remarked that nobody had bothered answering the 
question... the first answers that spring to mind are:

1. Yes
2. No
3. It is a book which contains descriptions of societies and 
individuals, and comments on them
4. Delightfully, absurdly, tragically, humorously, woefully, 
sarcastically, satirically, and with lots of words.
5. What do English teachers hope to *get* by assigning such 
hopelessly vague questions?

     Here's what I think a proper question might have been: "My 
teacher asked us to write a page answering the question, 'How is 
Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed" a commentary on society and the 
individual?' but I have *no idea* what the question means.  Is it a 
how of manner or a how of means?  Can I just answer "It isn't a 
commentary, it's a story"?  And what does s/he mean by "society and 
the individual"?  Which society, which individual?  Does my teacher 
mean to imply that all societies and individuals are interchangeable? 
How can I find relevant answers in the book if the question itself is 
meaningless?"

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David Salo scripsit:

> 5. What do English teachers hope to *get* by assigning such 
> hopelessly vague questions?

What they *hope* to get is a brief introduction followed by the statement
of a thesis which answers the question, supported by verifiable facts
constructed in a rhetorically satisfying way to form a logically sound
argument, and topped off with an appropriate conclusion, to be sure.

And when they get such a thing, they almost always award an A.

>      Here's what I think a proper question might have been: "My 
> teacher asked us to write a page answering the question, 'How is 
> Ursula Le Guin's "The Dispossessed" a commentary on society and the 
> individual?' but I have *no idea* what the question means.  Is it a 
> how of manner or a how of means?  Can I just answer "It isn't a 
> commentary, it's a story"?  And what does s/he mean by "society and 
> the individual"?  Which society, which individual?  Does my teacher 
> mean to imply that all societies and individuals are interchangeable? 
> How can I find relevant answers in the book if the question itself is 
> meaningless?"

That is indeed a proper question, but I think that, while not utterly
irrelevant, it nevertheless is not *particularly* suited to this list.

-- 
Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.
        --Arthur C. Clarke, "The Nine Billion Names of God"
                John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com>

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Blah! Blah! Blah! 

The question, "How is Ursula Le Guin's 'The Dispossessed' a commentary on society and the individual?" is clearly a homework assignment. I've had enough college to know an assignment question when I see one. John's reply may have been less than polite, but it was an accurate thing to say.

I attended college before the internet, email, and listserves, but I know that professors now have to deal with students getting their homework off of the internet. There is an erroneous assumption on the part of students today that if they copy and paste something from the internet, or go to a so-called "homework assistance" site, or have an assignment emailed or posted to them, that this is an acceptable practice. But it's no more acceptable than in the olden days when one had to go to the library to do research.




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On Thursday, Dec 4, 2003, at 18:50 Europe/London, dsalo@softhome.net 
wrote:

> jcowan@reutershealth.com writes:
> <A load of stuff>
>
>
>    I agree entirely with Mindy and hardly at all with John.  I am not a
> member of a "hacker culture" and I don't see any reason to privilege 
> an,
> essentially, elitist mindset.

What does this last bit mean exactly? "privilege", "essentially", 
"elitist". These words set my mumbo-jumbo (NB euphemism) detector 
vibrating.


> I teach: which means that I have to answer
> stupid questions.  Questions, by their nature, are intrinsically stupid

Hang on. Did not yer man Plato himself use a series of questions (I 
can't remember where: google - avanti!) to elucidate knowledge from 
some rhetorical personage who didn't know he had it in him? In short, I 
beg to contradict your last utterance, Mr Salo.


chiz chiz

rdg


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From sentto-2266408-1005-1070708084-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Sat Dec  6 02:54:45 2003
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I teach English in France and have come across a few students using Internet 
to do homework assignments.  The results are usually comic and they never try 
it more than once.  One or two of them have written their essay in French and 
then asked a site on the Web to translate it.  Considering that "vedette" in 
French can mean either movie star or high speed boat and the machine has no way 
of deciding which is meant, the result is mostly incomprehensible and often 
laughable.  I give them a very low mark and they realize that they can do 
better than that on their own.

The other method is to do a search with key words and some of my students 
have come up with very apt, well-written essays.  The problem is that when a 
normally struggling student uses the vocabulary and word structures of a 
professional writer, I get suspicious.  So I do my own word search, using his first 
sentence.  And of course, bingo! I get the whole essay.  Which I print off, 
staple to his paper, and hand back with an even lower mark and "I have Internet 
too!" written across the top.  Not only does that student never try it again, but 
no one else in the class does either.

Yet, I'm grateful to Christine ( Was that her name?) for waking you all up.  
And the story of The Dispossessed is in many ways the story of one man's 
relationship to the society he was raised in and to the society he visits.  But I 
agree, it's a story and not a commentary.

Judy


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Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 07:43:48 -0500
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>On Thursday, Dec 4, 2003, at 18:50 Europe/London, dsalo@softhome.net
>wrote:
>I am not a
>  member of a "hacker culture" and I don't see any reason to privilege
>  an,
>  essentially, elitist mindset.

>What does this last bit mean exactly? "privilege", "essentially",
>"elitist". These words set my mumbo-jumbo (NB euphemism) detector
>vibrating.

    I'm not responsible for your mumbo-jumbometer, Roddy; but I'd=20
suggest you get it recalibrated.
    "Privilege" (verb) means "to characterize or to assume to be=20
better, more useful, or more appropriate than something else"
    "Essentially" (adverb) in this case means that whatever the type=20
of behavior described is presented as (e.g. realistic, hard-headed,=20
efficient, common-sensical) it is in fact elitist (q.v.).
    "Elitist" (adjective) means characteristic of a (self-perceived)=20
=E9lite; socially or intellectually exclusive; snobbish; characterized=20
by attempts to assert various forms of superiority.

    This was, btw, a reference to "How to Ask Questions the Smart=20
Way", which seemed to me to be mostly a way of trying to stop anyone=20
from asking any questions, ever.
--=20
/\     WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
\/            WRAIQS NU IST                               <> David=20
Salo <dsalo@softhome.net> <>

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=20

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Christine's recent post asking about the Dispossed has
raised some marvelous intellectual honesty issues (is
she going to plagiarize? or just get real help?).  I
can't help respond to the subset on the validity of
questions.

One person posted:
> I teach: which means that I have to answer 
> stupid questions.  Questions, by their nature, are
intrinsically stupid: 
> they imply ignorance of a subject.  

I also teach.  What I tell my students is that the
ONLY stupid question is the one you don't ask!  Yes,
some questions show a greater understanding of the
subject than others.  Some even reveal to a room full
of people that you've NOT been paying attention (e.g.
when a student asks a question that I've already
answered in class).  But all demonstrate at least a
token bit of curiosity.  Curiosity is, itself, a sign
of intelligence -- without the ability to think, we
wouldn't have the ability to wonder -- to be curious
-- to ASK!

So, as another reader/writer said:
I agree that questions imply ignorance of a subject. 
I don't think that makes them stupid intrinsically.  

I'm not sure I agree that there are "dumb questions". 
There are certainly questions that show evidence that
the asker has thought about the issue and tried to
figure it out him/herself before asking, and those
that demonstrate that the asker is hoping others will
do the work.

Is the question smart if it "show[s] evidence that the
asker has done her homework"? Or is the asker showing
his or her smarts?  The truly dumb (stupid), don't
even bother to ask!


On other fronts, it is harder and harder to write
essay questions that students can's just go to the net
to buy answers for.  If Christine really IS a student
asking us to do her homework, at least she opened
herself up to the possibility of getting several
answers that she'd have to combine into a coherent
essay, instead of buying one from the paper mills.

What does it say about our society that we both
penalize students for plagiarizing (sometimes by
tossing them out of a university!) and allow huge
businesses geared to help students plagiarize?

Meanwhile, I'll go back to checking my students'
papers by "googling" their best sentences. (sigh).

HK



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From sentto-2266408-1008-1070905639-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 09:47:19 2003
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Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:47:00 +0100
Subject: [the-ekumen] Plariarism
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Am 08.12.2003 10:51 Uhr schrieb "the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com" unter
<the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com>:

> What does it say about our society that we both
> penalize students for plagiarizing (sometimes by
> tossing them out of a university!) and allow huge
> businesses geared to help students plagiarize?
That sounds unjust. But then imagine a society that values property higher
than justice: in this society the students have to be punished, because they
violate property. The corporations, on the other hand, earn money and
therefore hold property in high regard. They are good, the students are
evil.

Hey, wait a moment! That was a rhetoric question, wasn't it? I have to read
the manual "How to answer rhetoric questions the smart way".


;-> Peter


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From sentto-2266408-1009-1070908048-lq2=feministsf.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com  Mon Dec  8 10:27:29 2003
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About students' questions.   I once read somewhere about a study that 
recorded question sessions with a teacher at the end of each lesson of a course that 
lasted several months.  At the end of the course the students were given a 
test made up of all the questions they had asked.  What the result proved was 
that while students may or may not have remembered the answers to other people's 
questions, they all remembered the answers to their own questions.  I tell 
this to my students to stress the importance of asking questions, even when they 
may appear "stupid".

Judy


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Wow!  away from my PC for a few days and what happens to the Ekumen site which has been so quiet for so long - 23 unread messages!  Judy has already said thanks to Christine for setting us all off.  I really enjoyed reading it all.  So, Christine, if you're still reading this correspondence, which I doubt, as some thanks a few of my ideas on your essay question:

When I first read The Dispossessed back in the 70s, I was a little disappointed.  The previous UKL books I had read were all about ideas which were new and exciting and this one, at first, seemed disappointingly like a (damn, you teachers help me, what's the academic word, this menopausal woman needs your help) anyway a reflection or something of the world dominated by the USA (A Io) and the USSR (Thu) with Latin America in the sidelines (Benbili).  Of course even then Anarres came over as fresh and kindled an interest in anarchy.  The General Temporal Theory was of course also developed straight out of the General Theory of Relativity and indeed Einstein is quoted here under the name of Ainsetain.  However since then my opinion has changed and The Dispossessed has become one of my most re-read books, and seems full of wisdom and insight as well as a damn good story.  

So what it seems to me is that the book takes the story of individuals, with the central character being a remarkable scientific genius with a 'luminous' (one of UKLs favourite words) personal honesty and integrity but not readily able to fit into the society he passionately believes in.  The story places him in a number of situations where he has to cope with a variety of social,  political and personal ethical situations and he struggles through them.  On the way he develops, through the social conflicts, his personal insight into Temporal theory and finally does what he can to prevent this being used as an instrument in a power struggle, by broadcasting the theory to all available nations.  Openness and Honesty not Tact and Diplomacy.  Individuals in the story come across as imensely believable, from the slimy Sabul to the luminous Shevek, with  perhaps the male characters being more in the foreground despite the feminism implicit in the Anarres principles (UKL's later work was more successful at foreground rounded women, with Four Ways to Forgiveness being particularly strong in justice to both genders).  As for the societies I found I could accept Anarres as a real place but do continue to feel Urras as a bit of a parody (was that the word I was looking for?)  There are some wonderful details in the Anarres part of the story; the truck driver giving his views on women, the systems for signing out to eat at Commons, the fight about the similar names, the composer who couldn't get his work heard, the tenth day labours, Takver's Occupations of Uninhabited Space,  all of which are part of the individual living in solidarity with his ammari.  But the ideal design gets weakened as unacknowledged power plays appear in the way that sex and defecation are unacknowledged on Urras. In Urras Shevek tries to deal with the people he encounters as individuals - the Thuvian Chifoilisk tells him that his judgement of Pae as personally slippery won't do, it fails to see him as a part of the power structure in which he is embroiled.  But Shevek is surprised to see the 'sturdy self respecting' people motivated by profit and property which he expected to undermine their natural desire to work (surely no-one on Anarres would try and get someone else to do their homework).  Only when he encounters the urban slums does he see the sort of society he had been taught about in his own schooldays.  He continues to act as an individual, and in doing so provides some sort of leadership to the Urrasti poor.  He makes a speech which inspires the Terran alien.

The book is really all about the continuous tension between individuals and societies, and all the ideas and ethics are presented in wonderful personal terms - one favourite bit to me is how the mining delegate speaks in the meeting where Rulag and Shevek are fighting (and what is that mother-son conflict thing all about - I'd value your views) 'a thin, small, middle-aged man .......began to speak in a voice hoarsened by the dust cough ..... not expected to speak on this matter .... 'what men deserve' he was saying, 'For we each of us deserve everything, every luxury that was ever piled into the tombs of the dead Kings, and we each of us deserve nothing, not a mouthful of bread in hunger. ..... Free your mind of deserving, the idea of earning, and you will be able to think'.  ....Odo's words from the Prison Letters ....'' 
He shames them all.  He could provide this shame in Anarres, which would be impossible in Urras, and yet the ideas he is quoting, the orthodoxy in Anarres, are pretty strange to our modern Terran societies.

Enough of this unstructured stuff, I am not an A essay writer but it is fun to try and put my strong feelings for this book into words.  It is 'work/play' for me, very different from my day job - my qualifications are in science (very rusty and old), accountancy and management, haven't studied English formally since I was 16 back in the 60's.  

Keep talking folks!

Hannah

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <judyldubois@aol.com>
To: <the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 376


> About students' questions.   I once read somewhere about a study that 
> recorded question sessions with a teacher at the end of each lesson of a course that 
> lasted several months.  At the end of the course the students were given a 
> test made up of all the questions they had asked.  What the result proved was 
> that while students may or may not have remembered the answers to other people's 
> questions, they all remembered the answers to their own questions.  I tell 
> this to my students to stress the importance of asking questions, even when they 
> may appear "stupid".
> 
> Judy
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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From ???@??? Fri Dec 12 10:30:07 2003
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Hannah,  I don't know about academic, but that was a beautiful and 
thought-provoking discussion of The Dispossessed and I'm going to go back and read it 
again (for the fourth? time).  I hope Christine does as much.  Judy


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From ???@??? Wed Dec 17 08:48:54 2003
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:39:12 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] A Question about Names in the Earthsea Cycle
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Dear members of the group,

My name is Mychal and I am (nearly) 17 years old from Israel. As a 
project for my matriculation, I translate an excerpt from Ursula K. 
Le Guin's book "The Other Wind", which I absolutely adore, to Hebrew.

One of the translating problems I've run into during the first 
examination of the book is the names Ursula K. Le Guin uses. On one 
hand, most of them seem to be entirely made-up by her, yet on the 
other hand, some have the sound of different cultures, which hints 
that they might have meanings.

Such issues affect the way of the translation (choosing whether to 
find a parallel meaning in Hebrew, or simply copying the words by 
sound).

If any of you can give me any information on the subject, or link me 
to some other source on which I can find such information, I will be 
extremely grateful.

Thank you, and have a wonderful day,
Mychal.



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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 12:49:01 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] A Question about Names in the Earthsea Cycle
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Dear members of the group,

My name is Mychal and I am (nearly) 17 years old, from Israel. As a 
part of a project for the matriculation, I am to translate an excerpt 
of Ursula K. Le Guin's book "The Other Wind", which I adore, to 
Hebrew.

One of the translating problems I've run into during the first 
examination of the book is the names Ursula K. Le Guin uses. On one 
hand, they seem to be entirely made-up by her, yet on the other hand, 
they seem to relate to sounds of different cultures, and therefor 
possibly have meanings. That problem affects the method of 
translating the names (finding a parallel meaning in Hebrew or simply 
copying them by sound).

If any of you can share any information on the subject, or link me to 
a relevant resource, I will be very grateful.

Thank you, and have a wonderful day,
Mychal.



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From ???@??? Wed Dec 17 08:49:05 2003
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pixy_led_v@yahoo.co.uk scripsit:

(Cool username, BTW.)

> One of the translating problems I've run into during the first 
> examination of the book is the names Ursula K. Le Guin uses. On one 
> hand, most of them seem to be entirely made-up by her, yet on the 
> other hand, some have the sound of different cultures, which hints 
> that they might have meanings.

In one of her essays, Le Guin describes "listening for" the names of her
characters.  I think anything that is not in plain English (primarily the
use-names like Sparrowhawk, Yarrow, etc.) should be left entirely alone.
Just transliterate them letter-by-letter as much as possible (though
you might want to use qof rather than kaf in Kurremkarmerruk, just to
make it look more impressive and foreign-y, since it is supposed to be
meaningless and formidable).  You should probably use vowel points (if
you have the capability of typing and printing them) in all the names
and True Speech words, or the proper effect will not come across.

Good luck!

-- 
The Imperials are decadent, 300 pound   John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com>
free-range chickens (except they have   http://www.reutershealth.com
teeth, arms instead of wings and        http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
dinosaurlike tails).                        --Elyse Grasso

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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 06:52:27 -0800
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] A Question about Names in the Earthsea Cycle
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At 12:49 PM 12/17/2003 +0000, Mychal wrote:

>One of the translating problems I've run into during the first 
>examination of the book is the names Ursula K. Le Guin uses. On one 
>hand, they seem to be entirely made-up by her, yet on the other hand, 
>they seem to relate to sounds of different cultures, and therefor 
>possibly have meanings. That problem affects the method of 
>translating the names (finding a parallel meaning in Hebrew or simply 
>copying them by sound).

I'm sure others can provide better references or more learned counsel.  But
I strongly advise transcribing invented-language names by sound, and _not_
attempting to translate them by what they sound like.  With an author like
Le Guin, it is a mistake to decode her names by accidental phonological
resemblance.  The name Ged (hard g as in Gimel), for instance, sounds like
"God".  Le Guin was shaken when somebody pointed this out: she mentions
this somewhere in _The Language of the Night_, I believe.  Ged is in no way
a secret allegorical stand-in for Adonai, and still less because of the
sound of his name.

When Le Guin plays around with real names, she does so openly, as with
Ainsetain (Einstein) in _The Dispossessed_ and Genly (Henry) in _The Left
Hand of Darkness_, and does so in a context where the names come from Earth
as we know it.  Nothing in the Earthsea books has any direct connection
with our cultures.  The Archipelagans are intended to be physically
reminiscent of Native Americans, and the Kargish are very like Vikings, at
least in the earlier books.  But nothing in their names is intended to
encode that.

- David Bratman



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From ???@??? Wed Dec 17 08:49:10 2003
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At 10:31 PM 12/10/2003 +0000, Hannah wrote:

>When I first read The Dispossessed back in the 70s, I was a little 
>disappointed.  The previous UKL books I had read were all about ideas which 
>were new and exciting and this one, at first, seemed disappointingly like a 
>(damn, you teachers help me, what's the academic word, this menopausal woman 
>needs your help)

Allegory.

>anyway a reflection or something of the world dominated by 
>the USA (A Io) and the USSR (Thu) with Latin America in the sidelines 
>(Benbili).  Of course even then Anarres came over as fresh and kindled an 
>interest in anarchy.

Sometimes a familiar situation can be made to seem shockingly new by
placing it in a new setting.  I suspect that was part of Le Guin's purpose
here.  Also, the existence of Anarres, the planet, provided a more
plausible setting - partly through unfamiliarity - for the utopia thereon
than any place on Earth.


>The General Temporal Theory was of course also 
>developed straight out of the General Theory of Relativity and indeed 
>Einstein is quoted here under the name of Ainsetain.

That's their best attempt at pronouncing his name.  German phonology
obviously sits poorly on their tongues.

>However since then my 
>opinion has changed and The Dispossessed has become one of my most re-read 
>books, and seems full of wisdom and insight as well as a damn good story.  

Good!  Among Le Guin's more political novels of that period, I like it
better than Left Hand or Word for World, though perhaps not as much as
Lathe of Heaven.

- David Bratman



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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:59:57 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] A Question about Names in the Earthsea Cycle
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Hi. I'm new to the list after having read The Other
Wind in awe and wonder.

When I read the first three Earthsea books as a child,
I loved the maps involved. To my surprise, I still got
pleasure out of hunting for every name reference
mentioned in The Other Wind, and they were all
somewhere in the Archipelago except for the mention of
'There were a thousand lays and ballads about the son
of Morred... the hero of Sorra'. 

Where (Or, perhaps, what) is Sorra?

Matt.

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From ???@??? Wed Dec 17 12:26:35 2003
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 18:38:38 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: A Question about Names in the Earthsea Cycle
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Hello again, and thank you very much for your help (that goes for 
anyone who replied, of course. *Grins*)! John - thank you also for 
complimenting my user name. 

I think I will indeed copy the names as they are by sound. Another 
thought that occured in my guide's mind (my guide is the adoreable 
lady who helps me throughout the project) is that even if there are 
references to different cultures in the names Le Guin chooses in the 
Earthsea Cycle, perhaps she seeks to make more universal for the 
readers, and therefor, again, a parallel meaning in Hebrew will miss 
the point.

If I may ask, how come the both of you (meaning David an John, now) 
have such knowledge of the Hebrew language? 

Thank you, again, and I apologize for posting the message twice, as I 
wasn't familiar with the way the e-group was managed at first.

Yours,
Pixy-Led.


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From ???@??? Wed Dec 17 12:26:59 2003
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Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: A Question about Names in the Earthsea Cycle
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pixy_led_v@yahoo.co.uk scripsit:

> If I may ask, how come the both of you (meaning David an John, now) 
> have such knowledge of the Hebrew language? 

I don't -- just some familiarity with the Hebrew/Yiddish writing system.

-- 
Evolutionary psychology is the theory           John Cowan
that men are nothing but horn-dogs,             http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
and that women only want them for their money.  http://www.reutershealth.com
        --Susan McCarthy (adapted)              jcowan@reutershealth.com

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From ???@??? Wed Dec 17 12:27:06 2003
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Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:04:43 +0200
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] A Question about Names in the Earthsea Cycle
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Hi Mychal,
I suggest you use the same names as in the translation of the first 3 
books. Their translator was very experienced and professional. I doubt 
anyone could have done it better.

> My name is Mychal and I am (nearly) 17 years old from Israel. As a 
> project for my matriculation, I translate an excerpt from Ursula K. 
> Le Guin's book "The Other Wind", which I absolutely adore, to Hebrew.
> 
> One of the translating problems I've run into during the first 
> examination of the book is the names Ursula K. Le Guin uses.

-- 
Have fun,                "You teach best what you most need to learn."
Yonat.                                                 -- Richard Bach



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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:14:59 -0800
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] A Question about Names in the Earthsea Cycle
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Not knowing where in The Other Wind this is, I can't go easily check, but
perhaps you mean Solea?  This was an island in the northern archipelago
which sank long before Ged's day, due to a disaster several times alluded
to, but never exactly specified.

- David Bratman

At 02:59 PM 12/17/2003 +0000, Matt wrote:
>Hi. I'm new to the list after having read The Other
>Wind in awe and wonder.
>
>When I read the first three Earthsea books as a child,
>I loved the maps involved. To my surprise, I still got
>pleasure out of hunting for every name reference
>mentioned in The Other Wind, and they were all
>somewhere in the Archipelago except for the mention of
>'There were a thousand lays and ballads about the son
>of Morred... the hero of Sorra'. 
>
>Where (Or, perhaps, what) is Sorra?
>
>Matt.
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>BT Yahoo! Broadband - Save £80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer 
>ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. 
>http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=21064/*http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk
>
>
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> 
>
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Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 06:15:05 -0800
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: A Question about Names in the Earthsea
  Cycle
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At 06:38 PM 12/17/2003 +0000, pixy_led_v@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

>Hello again, and thank you very much for your help

You're welcome.

>If I may ask, how come the both of you (meaning David an John, now) 
>have such knowledge of the Hebrew language? 

Oh, I don't have much knowledge.  But what I do have comes from several
years of Hebrew school in my youth in the West that is forgotten.

- David Bratman



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Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] A Question about Names in the Earthsea Cycle
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David Bratman scripsit:

> Not knowing where in The Other Wind this is, I can't go easily check, but
> perhaps you mean Solea?  This was an island in the northern archipelago
> which sank long before Ged's day, due to a disaster several times alluded
> to, but never exactly specified.

Actually, the whole history is given in the back-matter in _Tales from Earthsea_.
In short, the Enemy of Morred raised a great wave which drowned Solea, and with
it Elfarran (it was her native island), though her child was put into an ark
and saved.

-- 
They do not preach                              John Cowan
  that their God will rouse them                jcowan@reutershealth.com
    A little before the nuts work loose.        http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
They do not teach                               http://www.reutershealth.com
  that His Pity allows them                         --Rudyard Kipling,
    to drop their job when they damn-well choose.   "The Sons of Martha"

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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 09:23:07 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] *Cough* Excuse me...
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Ladies and Gents,
We all know how annoying it is to have someone drop in out of the 
blue to a group or newsgroup, request something silly, never to be 
heard of again. I've been annoyed by these people before, and no 
doubt will be again. However, the time has come for me to impinge on 
your generosity, and make such a claim.

I am hunting a copy of "A very long way from anywhere else." This is 
one of my favourite novels, and I've been looking for it 
unsuccessfully in bookshops all over town. I live in Melbourne, Aus, 
and even the non-mainstream bookshops that carry interesting non-top-
ten sellers don't have it!

I'm told it is out of print! :( Which leaves me looking for a second 
hand copy. I'm not a book collector, rather a Uni student, so am not 
looking for any whizz bang first edition or somesuch, but rather, any 
reasonable quality, readable copy.

Can you help?!
If anyone has one they would like to sell, my ears are flapping.
If anyone knows of where I can find and buy a copy, they shall have 
my eternal gratitude. Even Amazon has let me down.

I shall be back, to check for repies, but one can speed the process 
by emailing me directly...

Yours Hopefully,
Adrian.



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From ???@??? Sun Dec 21 09:38:54 2003
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> I am hunting a copy of "A very long way from anywhere else."

Try http://www.bookfinder.com

-- 
Have fun,                "You teach best what you most need to learn."
Yonat.                                                 -- Richard Bach



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Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 08:50:23 -0800
Subject: [the-ekumen] Suggested reading:  Leaving Mother Lake by Yang Erche Namu
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Yang Erche Namu is a member of the Moso ethnic minority of Yunnan Province,
China.  Their family structure and some of their customs reminded me so 
much of Karhide that it was uncanny.

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Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] *Cough* Excuse me...
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a_reeders scripsit:

> I'm told it is out of print! :( Which leaves me looking for a second 
> hand copy. I'm not a book collector, rather a Uni student, so am not 
> looking for any whizz bang first edition or somesuch, but rather, any 
> reasonable quality, readable copy.

http://www.abebooks.com is your friend.  At the moment, there are 52
suppliers available, but most of these are overseas.  The only Australian
supplier with a copy wants A$25 for it, so even factoring in the
overseas shipping you may be able to do better elsewhere.

-- 
Principles.  You can't say A is         John Cowan <jcowan@reutershealth.com>
made of B or vice versa.  All mass      http://www.reutershealth.com
is interaction.  --Richard Feynman      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan

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From ???@??? Wed Dec 24 09:25:16 2003
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Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 09:16:13 -0000
Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: *Cough* Excuse me...
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Thanks,
I checked out the Aus supplier, and he had a great copy. $25 might 
have been more exy than some of the US ones, but it was in great 
condition, and I was able to check it out before buying, so I nabbed 
it!

Thanks again for your help,
Adrian.


--- In the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com, John Cowan <jcowan@r...> wrote:
> a_reeders scripsit:
> 
> > I'm told it is out of print! :( Which leaves me looking for a 
second 
> > hand copy. I'm not a book collector, rather a Uni student, so am 
not 
> > looking for any whizz bang first edition or somesuch, but rather, 
any 
> > reasonable quality, readable copy.
> 
> http://www.abebooks.com is your friend.  At the moment, there are 52
> suppliers available, but most of these are overseas.  The only 
Australian
> supplier with a copy wants A$25 for it, so even factoring in the
> overseas shipping you may be able to do better elsewhere.
> 
> -- 
> Principles.  You can't say A is         John Cowan <jcowan@r...>
> made of B or vice versa.  All mass      http://www.reutershealth.com
> is interaction.  --Richard Feynman      http://www.ccil.org/~cowan


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Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 22:59:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: *Cough* Excuse me...
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a_reeders scripsit:

> I checked out the Aus supplier, and he had a great copy. $25 might 
> have been more exy than some of the US ones, but it was in great 
> condition, and I was able to check it out before buying, so I nabbed 
> it!


In that case, Merry Christmas!

-- 
John Cowan   jcowan@reutershealth.com  http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Most languages are dramatically underdescribed, and at least one is 
dramatically overdescribed.  Still other languages are simultaneously 
overdescribed and underdescribed.  Welsh pertains to the third category.
        --Alan King

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