From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 17:53:40 2001 Received: from ch.egroups.com (ch.egroups.com [208.50.99.226]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA11113 for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 08:30:08 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-41-979749002-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ch.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Jan 2001 16:30:06 -0000 X-Sender: peson42@hem.passagen.se X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_3); 17 Jan 2001 16:30:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 31993 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2001 16:16:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Jan 2001 16:16:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail2.passagen.se) (195.163.107.11) by mta2 with SMTP; 17 Jan 2001 16:16:53 -0000 Received: from peson (peson.interactiveinstitute.se [195.149.141.30]) by mail2.passagen.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.22) with SMTP id for ; Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:16:51 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <001401c080a0$e74bc880$1e8d95c3@interactiveinstitute.se> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-eGroups-From: "Fredrik Petersson" From: "Fredrik Petersson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@egroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 17:16:52 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] A guide to Earthsea + rambling about the Telling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 91964954bc77a20b9058c499ea501cf1 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1368 Hi all, First off, I just found a pretty good Earthsea site I thought I'd recommend. Take a look at http://web.a-znet.com/ganieda/earthsea/earthsea.htm Also, I've been thinking about the Telling... My first idea about what the Telling might be was that that it would turn out to be a case of "naming the world" and thus causing it to "be". Something like in the Earthsea series, where knowing the "true names" of things gives you power over them. Or indeed, like in the Bible: God _says_ that there should be light - the word exists pretty much before anything else. In general, Le Guin has been experimenting with the narrative, and twisting it so the narrative becomes the content of the story rather than the vehicle. It would seem logical that the Telling would be the same as Creation. (But, I suspected, on Aka it would for some reason be an ongoing creation - that you would have to recite the Telling continously to keep the world in place, and like in all storytelling, the stories would change over time.) Somehow this makes me think of the Australian aboriginal mythos, but I'm not sure why. I blame Neil Gaiman and his Dreaming. Am I the only one who thought of this, or was there some subliminal hints to this effect hidden in the story? Well, anyway, I think that would have made a nice story as well. :) Fredrik from Le Guin's World --- Le Guin's World is at http://surf.to/le.guin leguinsworld@mail.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 17:55:45 2001 Received: from ci.egroups.com ([64.211.240.235]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA23540 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 03:10:29 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-42-979816228-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2001 11:10:28 -0000 X-Sender: john_hardress_lloyd@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_1_2); 18 Jan 2001 11:10:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 32013 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2001 11:10:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Jan 2001 11:10:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mw.egroups.com) (10.1.2.2) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 Jan 2001 12:11:32 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: john_hardress_lloyd@hotmail.com Received: from [10.1.2.91] by mw.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jan 2001 11:10:27 -0000 To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Message-ID: <946iur+10396@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 212.134.240.177 From: john_hardress_lloyd@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@egroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 11:10:19 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] The Creation of Ea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 58f69d32d501d6e656ca730d8e277351 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1709 Does anybody know whether the brilliant epigraph to The Wizard of Earthsea attributed to "The Creation of Ea" Only in the silence the word Only in dark the light Only in dying life Bright the hawk's flight On the empty sky. was actually written by UKL or whether it is translated from the ancient Sumerian creation myth of the same name? John To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 17:57:10 2001 Received: from b05.egroups.com (b05.egroups.com [208.50.144.96]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA01685 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 18:21:52 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-43-979870221-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jan 2001 02:10:38 -0000 X-Sender: galadhorn@necik.mag.com.pl X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_1_2); 19 Jan 2001 02:10:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 8117 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2001 01:56:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Jan 2001 01:56:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO necik.mag.com.pl) (195.205.129.242) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jan 2001 01:56:02 -0000 Received: from ppp (pa88.katowice.cvx.ppp.tpnet.pl [213.76.8.88]) by necik.mag.com.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA03620 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 03:49:52 +0100 Message-ID: <00a801c081bb$268cc100$58084cd5@ppp> To: References: <979787598.11897@egroups.com> Organization: Polish Tolkien Society X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-eGroups-From: "Ryszard Derdzinski" From: "Ryszard Derdzinski" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@egroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 02:42:35 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] New member and a question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UIDL: d626654669af8b3285b595923c2a2627 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1934 My name is Ryszard Derdzinski and I am new to this list. Nice to meet here old friends from another places: David Salo and Súrion Epeirodis (Aiya nilmonyat!) Despite my main interest is in J.R.R. Tolkien's legendarium I must say that Mrs. Ursula K. Le Guin was the first author I liked and read in my early youth. I love especially the Hain cycle. In Poland almost all Le Guin's books have been already translated. Most of them by two members of the Polish Tolkien Society: Agnieszka Sylwanowicz and Paulina Braiter-Ziemkiewicz. Mrs. I have a Polish translation of the famous book entitled "Always Coming Home". Unfortunately the Polish edition does not contain the cassette tape of music by Todd Barton "Music and Poetry of the Kesh". Maybe you could help me to find a copy of the tape or the MP3 file with this music? I will appreciate your good will. Yours, Ryszard Derdzinski To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com From ???@??? Thu Jan 25 18:15:56 2001 Received: from ck.egroups.com (ck.egroups.com [208.50.144.69]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA04458 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:37:04 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-44-980264216-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ck.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Jan 2001 15:37:02 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_1_2); 23 Jan 2001 15:36:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 93015 invoked from network); 23 Jan 2001 15:28:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Jan 2001 15:28:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta2 with SMTP; 23 Jan 2001 15:28:41 -0000 Received: from [207.229.142.147] (207-229-172-7.d.enteract.com [207.229.172.7]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA46680 for ; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:28:40 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: To: the-ekumen@egroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@egroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@egroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@egroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 09:28:32 -0600 Reply-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Salon.com's Brilliant Careers: Ursula K. Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 5ca56e03eab9cceddbfaa71903c39b63 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4041 Hey Ekumenicals, If you've ever followed Salon.com's "Brilliant Careers" series, from time to time you may have wondered, like me, why on earth they hadn't gotten around to Le Guin yet. Well, today they did. Check it out at: http://www.salon.com/people/bc/2001/01/23/le_guin/index.html I'm only bummed because occasionally I had fantasies of writing an essay about her and submitting it myself! Oh, well. ; ) best, Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com From ???@??? Sat Feb 10 13:57:07 2001 Received: from hh.egroups.com (hh.egroups.com [208.50.99.210]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA16593 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:20:10 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-45-981598809-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2001 02:20:09 -0000 X-Sender: jhyde@christschool.org X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 8 Feb 2001 02:20:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 55106 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 02:20:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Feb 2001 02:20:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.christschool.org) (208.131.129.57) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 02:20:06 -0000 Received: from Debug (IDENT:apache@[208.131.129.59]) by mail.christschool.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA29640 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:24:28 -0500 Message-Id: <200102080224.VAA29640@mail.christschool.org> To: X-Mailer: Endymion MailMan Professional Edition v3.0.27 From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:24:16 GMT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] The Telling and the Meili Snow Mountains Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 1a5aa13d6c1597713626a00a8a234b0a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 798 Greetings! I wanted to send this tidbit last week but the email server was awry. One morning, I think Feb.1, I was listening to NPR's Morning Edition while half awake, when something grabbed my attention. At first I thought the announcer was talking about "The Telling,"and I really woke up! He was speaking of travelling up high mountains near Tibet, going further and further into the back country.... Turns out it was a program (on Morning Edition) called Radio Expeditions, sponsored jointly by NPR and the National Geographic Society. The report was on the Yunnan Great Rivers Project in the Meili Snow Mountains on the borders of Tibet. Strange synchronicity.... Seems the Chinese government wants to create forest "preserves" that attract tourists to an area called "one of the most remote and beautiful parts of the planet." The reporters accompanied a team of scientists who are reporting on the flora and fauna there; but they're also discovering the ancient culture that's alive there as well. You can see a picture of the Meili Snow Mountains and of a Tibetan shrine on the webpage and, if you have the right stuff, you can listen to the broadcast. http://www.npr.org/programs/RE/archives/010129.yunnan.html (If I've made a mistake in this URL, just go to npr.org and follow the links to Radio Expeditions.) Happy travelling! "The Telling," by the way, has made an impression on me too profound to begin to talk about here -- it's an amazing book. --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using The Christ School Mail Services. http://www.christschool.org/green/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/0/_/_/_/981598809/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com From ???@??? Sat Feb 10 13:57:36 2001 Received: from mr.egroups.com (mr.egroups.com [208.50.144.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA22085 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:49:37 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-46-981611375-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mr.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2001 05:49:35 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 8 Feb 2001 05:49:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 61548 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 05:49:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 8 Feb 2001 05:49:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 05:49:32 -0000 Received: from [207.229.142.157] (207-229-142-146.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.146]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA39333 for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:49:30 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200102080224.VAA29640@mail.christschool.org> References: <200102080224.VAA29640@mail.christschool.org> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:49:21 -0600 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: The Telling and the Meili Snow Mountains Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 8cff0b00e39d77a35759ca4df6174d17 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 837 Jane wrote: > You can see a picture of the Meili Snow Mountains and of a >Tibetan shrine on >the webpage and, if you have the right stuff, you can listen to the broadcast. > http://www.npr.org/programs/RE/archives/010129.yunnan.html (If >I've made a >mistake in this URL, just go to npr.org and follow the links to Radio >Expeditions.) Happy travelling! "The Telling," by the way, has made an >impression on me too profound to begin to talk about here -- it's an amazing >book. Hey Jane, thanks for posting that! I guess being a librarian The Telling is right up your alley, or should I say aisle. Complete change of subject, and apropos of nothing except the fact that I've been watching Star Trek Voyager lately: when UKL came to Chicago on her Searoad book tour back in the early '90s, I remember her mentioning that she was a fairly devoted viewer of The Next Generation, and that she had a thing for Worf. I think she was joking, but I wouldn't swear to it. live long and...oh, never mind.. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/0/_/_/_/981611375/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com From ???@??? Sat Feb 10 13:59:25 2001 Received: from ej.egroups.com (ej.egroups.com [64.211.240.230]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA04573 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:57:36 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-47-981651455-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2001 16:57:36 -0000 X-Sender: kebbo@teleport.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 8 Feb 2001 16:57:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 42759 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 16:57:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Feb 2001 16:57:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 16:57:32 -0000 Received: from [38.28.130.123] (ip123.portland12.or.pub-ip.psi.net [38.28.130.123]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA22604 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:57:26 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: kebbo@mail.teleport.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200102080224.VAA29640@mail.christschool.org> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: heather whipple MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:03:11 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: The Telling and the Meili Snow Mountains Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f55cea1730b8b37949e6ccf1c22ca727 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 981 >Complete change of subject, and apropos of nothing except the fact >that I've been watching Star Trek Voyager lately: when UKL came to >Chicago on her Searoad book tour back in the early '90s, I remember >her mentioning that she was a fairly devoted viewer of The Next >Generation, and that she had a thing for Worf. I think she was >joking, but I wouldn't swear to it. > >live long and...oh, never mind.. >Dave At either Readercon 5 or Wiscon 20 back in the mid 1990s, she was talking about how she would cast The Left Hand of Darkness -- she has written the screenplay, and I wish she'd publish it because she also said she reworked some of the gender stuff to avoid using "he" as the neutral pronoun -- and she mentioned Sigourney Weaver as Estraven and Michael Dorn (Worf) as Genly... Heather * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple kebbo@teleport.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/0/_/_/_/981651455/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com From ???@??? Sat Feb 10 14:00:29 2001 Received: from hj.egroups.com (hj.egroups.com [208.50.99.212]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA19165 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:59:47 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-48-981665986-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Feb 2001 20:59:46 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 8 Feb 2001 20:59:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 68612 invoked from network); 8 Feb 2001 20:59:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Feb 2001 20:59:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Feb 2001 22:00:30 -0000 Received: from [207.229.142.157] (207-229-172-209.d.enteract.com [207.229.172.209]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24582 for ; Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:59:23 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200102080224.VAA29640@mail.christschool.org> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:23:11 -0600 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Michael Dorn & Left Hand pronouns Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6449e3097246a1fb8bd24f91ff0fb865 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1055 Heather wrote: >At either Readercon 5 or Wiscon 20 back in the mid 1990s, she was >talking about how she would cast The Left Hand of Darkness -- she has >written the screenplay, and I wish she'd publish it because she also >said she reworked some of the gender stuff to avoid using "he" as the >neutral pronoun -- and she mentioned Sigourney Weaver as Estraven and >Michael Dorn (Worf) as Genly... Wow--what a great image! Not sure if you saw this or not, but in 1994 there was a "25th Anniversary" edition of Left Hand, published by Walker Publishing Company, with a new afterword and appendixes by UKL. In the afterword she talks about the various approaches to gender through pronouns, why she did it the way she did when she wrote the book and how she might do it differently now, and then she uses the appendixes to experiment with the text. In Appendix A she shows us what the first chapter would have been like with invented, gender-neutral pronouns; Appendix B is chapter 1 with all feminine pronouns; C and D are chapters 9 and 18 with different pronouns depending on whether the characters are in kemmer or not. It's a fairly fascinating experiment. And the afterword itself is a really nice, funny and thought-provoking discussion of gender in writing and the perils of pronouns. I was hoping that it was going to become a permanent part of the book, included in all subsequent editions, but unfortunately that appears not to have been the case. I think the 25th anniversary edition is now out-of-print and destined to be a collector's item (although I bet one could turn it up on Alibris or Bibliofind). On the downside, the 25th edition omitted the standard LHD intro where UKL discusses SF as thought experiment, which means that in my opinion there is no "perfect edition" of the book because there isn't one that includes the intro, the afterword, and the appendixes. Maybe someday? best, Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/0/_/_/_/981665986/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com From ???@??? Sat Feb 10 14:06:10 2001 Received: from hj.egroups.com (hj.egroups.com [208.50.99.212]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA14408 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:39:36 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-49-981837576-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Feb 2001 20:39:36 -0000 X-Sender: kebbo@teleport.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 10 Feb 2001 20:39:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 14859 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2001 20:39:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Feb 2001 20:39:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.120) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Feb 2001 21:40:40 -0000 Received: from [38.28.131.202] (ip202.portland13.or.pub-ip.psi.net [38.28.131.202]) by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21047 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:39:32 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: kebbo@mail.teleport.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200102080224.VAA29640@mail.christschool.org> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: heather whipple MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:45:27 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Michael Dorn & Left Hand pronouns Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 18bad2a40e8639a1a53498a125d71e7d Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1562 >Not sure if you saw this or not, but in 1994 there was a "25th >Anniversary" edition of Left Hand, published by Walker Publishing >Company, with a new afterword and appendixes by UKL. In the afterword I have a copy (bought hot off the presses), but I also got one last year (used but excellent condition) for the library where I work. So they're definitely available on occasion. I don't think (but have not checked) there was a paperback version of this edition. A new trade paper edition came out last year, but I think it's the original text, with none of the appendices or the afterword of the anniversary edition. She has also written "Coming of Age in Karhide," a short story about a Gethenian adolescent's first kemmer that has lots of interesting pronoun effects. She does a great job of avoiding gender references altogether through much of it. It's in _New Legends_, edited by Greg Bear and Martin Greenberg, Tor 1995. At one time Books in Print had an entry for a forthcoming collection of her short stories (different from Tales from Earthsea coming this spring). That entry isn't there any more, but I still have hopes for at least another collection -- she wrote so many short stories in the 1990s. fyi, University of California Press is reprinting Always Coming Home as part of its "California Fictions" series. It was supposed to be out in january, but Amazon still says "not yet published." I don't think this edition includes the audio tape. A cd would be nice... Heather * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple kebbo@teleport.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/0/_/_/_/981837576/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com From ???@??? Fri Feb 16 14:04:39 2001 Received: from f19.egroups.com (f19.egroups.com [64.211.240.234]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA18317 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:12:57 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-50-981994376-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by f19.egroups.com with NNFMP; 12 Feb 2001 16:12:56 -0000 X-Sender: jhyde@christschool.org X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 12 Feb 2001 16:12:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 97754 invoked from network); 12 Feb 2001 16:12:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 12 Feb 2001 16:12:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.christschool.org) (208.131.129.57) by mta1 with SMTP; 12 Feb 2001 16:12:54 -0000 Received: from (www.christschool.org [208.131.129.58]) by mail.christschool.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA11900 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:19:03 -0500 Message-ID: <3A880C02.1C66@christschool.org> Organization: c:\sig.txt X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <200102080224.VAA29640@mail.christschool.org> From: jhyde MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:14:58 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Michael Dorn & Left Hand pronouns Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 886f69039492beb79427b168b0af196c Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 300 Can we band together and request that they republish the music? I have the original tape, and a friend of mine does, because I gave her the set, but she's never read it.... I've been meaning to write to the Ekumenite in eastern Europe but haven't had time: he wanted a copy of the tape -- sorry I haven't replied, but maybe in the summer I can manage to help him. -- Jane Hyde, Librarian 828-684-6232 x121 St. Dunstan Library jhyde@christschool.org Christ School 500 Christ School Rd. Arden, NC 28704 A book must be the axe for the frozen sea inside us. Franz Kafka ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/0/_/_/_/981994376/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com From ???@??? Fri Feb 16 14:06:06 2001 Received: from ej.egroups.com (ej.egroups.com [64.211.240.230]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA24210 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:17:09 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-51-982037828-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 13 Feb 2001 04:17:08 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 13 Feb 2001 04:17:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 15790 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2001 04:17:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 13 Feb 2001 04:17:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta1 with SMTP; 13 Feb 2001 04:17:03 -0000 Received: from [207.229.142.169] (207-229-172-116.d.enteract.com [207.229.172.116]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA33820 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:17:00 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <982030481.470.27918.l10@yahoogroups.com> References: <982030481.470.27918.l10@yahoogroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:15:29 -0600 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Always Coming Home tape Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 52baedf87cb7a024f07dcf3d22f1b5df Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 576 Jane wrote: >Can we band together and request that they republish the music? Interesting idea...but who would we direct our demand toward? I have a feeling that it might be a "hard sell" to convince a publisher to do that, although I don't know. But an alternative might be to seek UKL's permission to put the material up on the Web somewhere, say as MP3's. If UKL owns the rights to it herself, she might be glad to have the material made available to her fans again. (Similar to the way Russell Hoban allows me to publish essays and stories of his online as long as they're not currently available in print somewhere.) At any rate, we'd need someone to volunteer to spearhead/coordinate any such efforts, and I myself am a bit overbooked at the moment. As usual. Anyone out there want to lead the campaign? Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/0/_/_/_/982037828/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com From ???@??? Sat Feb 24 10:35:28 2001 Received: from mw.egroups.com (mw.egroups.com [208.50.144.94]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA13258 for ; Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:17:19 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-52-982433837-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mw.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Feb 2001 18:17:18 -0000 X-Sender: dfabi@shrike.depaul.edu X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 17 Feb 2001 18:17:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 80077 invoked from network); 17 Feb 2001 18:17:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Feb 2001 18:17:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hp.egroups.com) (10.1.2.220) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 Feb 2001 18:17:14 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: dfabi@shrike.depaul.edu Received: from [10.1.10.121] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Feb 2001 18:17:13 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <96mf78+evn4@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 63.48.144.181 From: "Dexter Fabi" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:17:12 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] The Telling among 10 best books of 2000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 37b221ae514e2239af2bac75937c1a45 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 127 Locus Online consolidated various polls from sf magazines and other sources (such as the LA Times, NY Times Book Review, Time) to create a best of 2000 list. The Telling is #7! Here is the link: www.locusmag.com/2000/News/BestBooks2000.html -D. Fabi ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/0/_/_/_/982433837/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com From ???@??? Sat Feb 24 10:43:34 2001 Received: from mo.egroups.com (mo.egroups.com [208.50.144.78]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA13792 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:35:34 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-53-982964134-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mo.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Feb 2001 21:35:34 -0000 X-Sender: paula@ba.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 23 Feb 2001 21:35:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 57922 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2001 21:32:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Feb 2001 21:32:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ferro2.ba.net) (66.60.8.100) by mta2 with SMTP; 23 Feb 2001 21:32:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 8407 invoked from network); 23 Feb 2001 18:40:47 -0000 Received: from h066060045081.isol.net.ar (HELO babydolphin) (66.60.45.81) by h066060008100.isol.net.ar with SMTP; 23 Feb 2001 18:40:47 -0000 Message-ID: <003501c09de1$59627100$512d3c42@babydolphin> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Spam-Rating: h066060008100.isol.net.ar 1.6.2 0/1000/N From: "paula" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:41:14 -0300 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] hi :) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 48329b119465a010687282b9999ebf23 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1376 hello there :) i am pretty new to the group... i have been trying to find information on some of Le Guin's short stories...does any of you know where i can find interpretations on his stories? maybe an interview where she talks about them? I chose her for a final paper at university, as I just love her works, but i am a bit stuck as i can't find any bibliography, and I am left with only my own interpretations and views and i would like to broaden that... Has any of you read "Two delays on the Northern Line", "The water is wide", "Small Change", "Child Bride" or "The wise woman"? They are stories from her books The Compass Rose and Unlocking the air... i was wondering if someone has read those stories... Thank you , paula. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://us.click.yahoo.com/kWP7PD/pYNCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Mar 05 11:52:37 2001 Received: from fl.egroups.com (fl.egroups.com [64.211.240.233]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA28247 for ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 04:43:43 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-54-983709821-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Mar 2001 12:43:41 -0000 X-Sender: ventus@poczta.onet.pl X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 4 Mar 2001 12:43:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 1660 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2001 12:43:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Mar 2001 12:43:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO marlin.onet.pl) (213.180.128.16) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Mar 2001 12:43:38 -0000 Received: from neo.onet ([192.168.192.95]:64034 "EHLO neo" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-CCERT: ) by mail.onet.pl with ESMTP id ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:27:42 +0100 Received: ("??"@neo) by neo id ; Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:27:31 +0100 Received: from 193.0.110.123 by neo (onet.poczta) with HTTP; Sun, 04 Mar 2001 12:27:31 +0100 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: onet.poczta X-Priority: 3 Message-Id: <20010304112741Z231254-19235+658469@neo> From: =?ISO-8859-2?Q? "S=FArion?= Epeirodis" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:27:31 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] LeGuin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: fb74acfb88e6c8ce9634409fe19d9c52 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 33 Ruszyla polska grupa poswiecona tworczosci Ursuli K. Le Guin. Zapraszam. LeGuin-pl-subscribe@egroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Mar 16 14:11:51 2001 Received: from ef.egroups.com (ef.egroups.com [64.211.240.229]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA20944 for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:20:59 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-55-984522059-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ef.egroups.com with NNFMP; 13 Mar 2001 22:20:59 -0000 X-Sender: ventus@poczta.onet.pl X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 13 Mar 2001 22:20:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 53154 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2001 22:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 13 Mar 2001 22:20:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ci.egroups.com) (10.1.2.81) by mta1 with SMTP; 13 Mar 2001 22:20:57 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: ventus@poczta.onet.pl Received: from [10.1.10.124] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 13 Mar 2001 22:20:57 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <98m6g7+fpap@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.0.110.145 From: "Surion Epeirodis" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:20:55 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] The Telling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by isaac.exploratorium.edu id OAA20944 X-UIDL: 6ca81e982138cf282e725e75882358e6 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 472 o-Hell-o! I only want to ask if someone knows if "The Telling" has been released in Poland or if it is going to be. Regards ----------------------------- Súrion Epeirodis - ventus@poczta.onet.pl "Hellenowie my, w proch obróceni, Pogrzebane umar³ych nadzieje Wci¹¿ chowamy w swoich sercach. Patrzcie: Nic ju¿ w œwiecie nie jest tym, czym by³o" Palladas, Antologia Palatyñska ----------------------------- ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> We give away $70,000 a month! Come to iWin.com for your chance to win! http://us.click.yahoo.com/r_1oCB/BJVCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Mar 26 15:38:20 2001 Received: from c3.egroups.com (c3.egroups.com [208.50.99.225]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA28890 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:53:54 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-56-985380830-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Mar 2001 20:53:50 -0000 X-Sender: ventus@poczta.onet.pl X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 23 Mar 2001 20:53:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 23455 invoked from network); 23 Mar 2001 20:53:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Mar 2001 20:53:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hh.egroups.com) (10.1.10.40) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Mar 2001 20:53:45 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: ventus@poczta.onet.pl Received: from [10.1.2.52] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Mar 2001 20:53:45 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <99gd4k+puc7@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.0.110.104 From: "Surion Epeirodis" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:53:40 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Books about UKL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 73fcefbd3ab8336e468fdcf6bc4a735b Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 180 Hello!, I've recently seen a book called "Understanding Ursula K. Le Guin" by some women - I can't recall her name now... Is it worth reading? Are there any more book ABOUT Ursula? Regards Surion ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Mar 26 15:39:21 2001 Received: from hp.egroups.com (hp.egroups.com [208.50.99.201]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA15160 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:03:05 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-57-985406584-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Mar 2001 04:03:04 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 24 Mar 2001 04:03:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 13482 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2001 04:03:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 24 Mar 2001 04:03:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.190) by mta1 with SMTP; 24 Mar 2001 04:03:02 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:03:02 -0800 Received: from 139.80.123.34 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 24 Mar 2001 04:03:01 GMT X-Originating-IP: [139.80.123.34] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Mar 2001 04:03:02.0112 (UTC) FILETIME=[521AF600:01C0B417] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 16:03:01 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Books about UKL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 890af510a3fbb1144e6166a720857016 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 224 'Understanding Ursula K. Le Guin' is by Elizabeth Cummings, an English lecturer in Missouri, I think... It's a very good book, with a fairly extensive bibliography at the back. She divides Le Guin's books into four groups, depending on their settings, so she has a chapter on the Hainish novels, one on Earthsea, one on the American Northwest (which is great for me, sice I love ecocriticism and always look at things from a 'sense of place' perspective anyway). The way Cummings has structured it makes it a fascinating guide to Le Guin. Cummings wrote her dissertation on the cyclical metaphor of returning in Le Guin's fiction, so she talks about that idea a lot, and about taoism. She quotes a lot from Le Guin's non fiction essays and I especially like her section on the Dispossessed. I would dearly love a copy of this book, as it is, I pretty much always have our library copy out under my name. (as any good librarian will!) - Jenn from New Zealand >Hello!, > > > I've recently seen a book called "Understanding Ursula K. Le >Guin" by some women - I can't recall her name now... Is it worth >reading? Are there any more book ABOUT Ursula? > > >Regards >Surion > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Mar 26 15:39:21 2001 Received: from jk.egroups.com (jk.egroups.com [208.50.144.83]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA15383 for ; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:18:22 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-58-985407501-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Mar 2001 04:18:21 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 24 Mar 2001 04:18:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 31326 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2001 04:18:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 24 Mar 2001 04:18:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.70) by mta3 with SMTP; 24 Mar 2001 05:19:24 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 23 Mar 2001 20:18:20 -0800 Received: from 139.80.123.34 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 24 Mar 2001 04:18:20 GMT X-Originating-IP: [139.80.123.34] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Mar 2001 04:18:20.0333 (UTC) FILETIME=[75685DD0:01C0B419] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 16:18:20 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Elizabeth Cummins Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: e1dbeb8e22fdd8f510b6202a294f6e69 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 225 I just ooked it up and it's actually Cummins, without the 'g'. Sorry about that. - Jenn _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> We give away $70,000 a month! Come to iWin.com for your chance to win! http://us.click.yahoo.com/olMXHC/BJVCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Mar 26 15:39:50 2001 Received: from jj.egroups.com (jj.egroups.com [208.50.144.82]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA26124 for ; Sat, 24 Mar 2001 08:48:25 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-59-985452505-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Mar 2001 16:48:25 -0000 X-Sender: paula@ba.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 24 Mar 2001 16:48:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 53024 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2001 16:48:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 24 Mar 2001 16:48:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ferro2.ba.net) (66.60.8.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 24 Mar 2001 16:48:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 12109 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2001 13:56:37 -0000 Received: from h066060045069.isol.net.ar (HELO babydolphin) (66.60.45.69) by h066060008100.isol.net.ar with SMTP; 24 Mar 2001 13:56:37 -0000 Message-ID: <004b01c0b483$8015c640$452d3c42@babydolphin> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Spam-Rating: h066060008100.isol.net.ar 1.6.2 0/1000/N From: "paula" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:57:22 -0300 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Books about UKL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: bb64891b38d2cc93b3b76ed60491b9a5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 249 Thank you for sharing this, i will try to get a copy of the book :)) i was wondering if you perhaps knew of what bibliography i can read...as i am working on some short stories by UKL. I am working on some short stories from the Compass Rose (small change, the water is wide, two delays on the northern line) and some from Unlocking the air (Child bride, The wise woman) and i have been unable to find bibliography... i was wondering if maybe you can point me in the right direction or if you could give me some suggestion about what book i can read to find information or insight. thank you in advance for reading this, paula. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> We give away $70,000 a month! Come to iWin.com for your chance to win! http://us.click.yahoo.com/olMXHC/BJVCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Mar 26 15:40:54 2001 Received: from hp.egroups.com (hp.egroups.com [208.50.99.201]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA08230 for ; Sat, 24 Mar 2001 18:47:14 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-60-985488434-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Mar 2001 02:47:14 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 25 Mar 2001 02:47:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 17559 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2001 02:47:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 25 Mar 2001 02:47:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.104) by mta1 with SMTP; 25 Mar 2001 02:47:12 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 24 Mar 2001 18:47:12 -0800 Received: from 203.173.236.88 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 25 Mar 2001 02:47:12 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.173.236.88] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Mar 2001 02:47:12.0338 (UTC) FILETIME=[E4A44B20:01C0B4D5] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 14:47:12 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] bibliographies Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6a2593e964aa9fc5cf4258932c879916 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 304 Elizabeth Cummins' bibliography is probably the best: 'Ursula K. Le Guin: A Primary and Secondary Bibliography' Cogell, Eliabeth Cummins. Boston, G. K. Hall, 1983. It may -just- list works on The Compass Rose since that book was published in 1982. I don't know of any full bibliographies that have been done since then. I guess it will just take some detective work on your part. I'm have similar difficulties finding stuff on 'Always Coming Home', which I am writing a research essay on for my undergraduate degree. Things seem to crop up all over the place though, just yesterday, I found a 50 page chapter in a book on narrative in American fiction about 'Always Coming Home'. Unfortunately, the author blockheadedly insists that Always Coming Home is a direct response to Pynchon's 'Gravity Rainbow'... I'm not sure I believe that. It's a pretty big claim to make. The New Zealand National Radio Programme is playing a live interview with Ursula some time this coming week. I'm very excited. - Jenn (oh, does anyone on this list belong to Laura Quilter's FSFFU list?) >Thank you for sharing this, i will try to get a copy of the book :)) >i was wondering if you perhaps knew of what bibliography i can read...as i >am working on some short stories by UKL. I am working on some short stories >from the Compass Rose (small change, the water is wide, two delays on the >northern line) and some from Unlocking the air (Child bride, The wise >woman) >and i have been unable to find bibliography... >i was wondering if maybe you can point me in the right direction or if you >could give me some suggestion about what book I can read to find >information >or insight. >thank you in advance for reading this, >paula. > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Mar 26 15:40:54 2001 Received: from hk.egroups.com (hk.egroups.com [208.50.99.220]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA10624 for ; Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:57:11 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-61-985496231-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Mar 2001 04:57:11 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 25 Mar 2001 04:57:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 22558 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2001 04:57:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 Mar 2001 04:57:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta3 with SMTP; 25 Mar 2001 05:58:14 -0000 Received: from [207.229.142.130] (207-229-142-130.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.130]) by mail.enteract.com (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f2P4v8v81077 for ; Sat, 24 Mar 2001 22:57:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 21:46:36 -0600 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] bibliographies Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 7836f5efb6b821a0506c55127a0d1777 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 308 Jenn wrote: >Elizabeth Cummins' bibliography is probably the best: 'Ursula K. Le Guin: A >Primary and Secondary Bibliography' Cogell, Eliabeth Cummins. Boston, G. K. >Hall, 1983. I haven't had a chance to post here much lately, but I just wanted to say welcome to the list, Jenn, and thanks for posting so much useful information in such a short time! (And thanks for joining the Russell Hoban list as well.) And a general welcome to all the new Ekumen members who've come along lately--Yahoo has finally seen fit to give The Ekumen a listing (a mere five months after I launched and submitted the homepage, in case anyone's interested in clocking it), so more folks seem to be finding their way here now. And with our numbers pushing fifty, I expect we should be able to actually sustain ongoing conversations any day now. ; ) Still looking forward to the new Earthsea books...always nice to make a return voyage to enchanted lands. best to you all, Dave Awl -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Mar 26 15:40:55 2001 Received: from fh.egroups.com (fh.egroups.com [208.50.144.71]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA21907 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2001 02:26:19 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-62-985515978-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by fh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Mar 2001 10:26:19 -0000 X-Sender: pontus.svenson@iname.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 25 Mar 2001 10:26:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 20978 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2001 10:26:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 25 Mar 2001 10:26:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hl.egroups.com) (10.1.10.44) by mta1 with SMTP; 25 Mar 2001 10:26:15 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: pontus.svenson@iname.com Received: from [10.1.1.35] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Mar 2001 10:26:14 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <99kh46+127b@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 194.236.7.202 From: pontus.svenson@iname.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:26:14 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: bibliographies Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: fab01cd5dc8334abe02989c9ffe77fa5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 317 > The New Zealand National Radio Programme is playing a live interview with > Ursula some time this coming week. I'm very excited. Do you know if it will be available to listen to over the internet too? I tried looking for New Zealand Radio's web-page but couldn't find it. There are a couple of online bibliographies that might be useful (although I have no idea if they're as complete as they claim to be): http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/authors/Ursula_K_Le_Guin.htm http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authors/leguin/chronbib.html http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb-bin/exact_author.cgi?Ursula_K._Le_Guin > (oh, does anyone on this list belong to Laura Quilter's FSFFU list?) What's that? /Pontus ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Mar 27 15:52:12 2001 Received: from mu.egroups.com (mu.egroups.com [64.211.240.238]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA08731 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:25:58 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-66-985681557-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Mar 2001 08:25:58 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Mar 2001 08:25:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 15969 invoked from network); 27 Mar 2001 08:25:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 27 Mar 2001 08:25:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.223) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Mar 2001 08:25:55 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 25 Mar 2001 02:57:08 -0800 Received: from 203.173.236.219 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 25 Mar 2001 10:57:08 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.173.236.219] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Mar 2001 10:57:08.0913 (UTC) FILETIME=[565DAA10:01C0B51A] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:57:08 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] that radio interview Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f5d88fd38eb6e90c88751f0c1edbf57d Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 61 Thanks for the welcome Dave. I'm not sure if Radio New Zealand is broadcast online, they do have a short-wave service... I will see if I can find out about it being online. And I am going to tape the interview with Ursula Le Guin. The FSFFU list is the Feminist Science Fiction, Fatasy and Utopia discussion list... I was too lazy to type the whole title out. They have a regular book discussion that can be quite interesting, although I think it's been a while since they talked about Le Guin. Jenn _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> We give away $70,000 a month! Come to iWin.com for your chance to win! http://us.click.yahoo.com/olMXHC/BJVCAA/4ihDAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Mar 26 15:41:20 2001 Received: from fl.egroups.com (fl.egroups.com [64.211.240.233]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA10579 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2001 19:07:23 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-63-985576038-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Mar 2001 03:07:18 -0000 X-Sender: jenjavar@superior.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Mar 2001 03:07:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 45246 invoked from network); 26 Mar 2001 03:07:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Mar 2001 03:07:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.interramp.com) (38.8.45.2) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Mar 2001 03:07:15 -0000 Received: from [38.26.192.35] (helo=jennifer.superior.net) by smtp1.interramp.com with esmtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com id 14hNLe-0003th-00; Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:07:14 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010325215917.00b0f3b0@mail.superior.net> X-Sender: jenjavar@mail.superior.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <985514443.477.61776.l10@yahoogroups.com> From: "Jennifer R. J." MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 22:06:55 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: bibliographies Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: fbb789d78b1a00c5f6441316daea58a2 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 358 For a good bibliography of LeGuin's short stories (although I don't know if it's complete), Laura Quilter has one here: http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authors/leguin/short.html She has a whole LeGuin page located at: http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authors/leguin/ Also, there is a bibliography of the stories collected in her anthologies at: http://hem.passagen.se/peson42/lgw/books.html Just click on the titles of the collections for listings of the stories. >(oh, does anyone on this list belong to Laura Quilter's FSFFU list?) I do. Are you on it too? Jennifer ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Mar 27 15:50:21 2001 Received: from hh.egroups.com (hh.egroups.com [208.50.99.210]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA00256 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:55:35 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-64-985657677-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Mar 2001 01:47:57 -0000 X-Sender: RachelBOsb@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Mar 2001 01:47:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 5965 invoked from network); 27 Mar 2001 01:47:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Mar 2001 01:47:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m03.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.6) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Mar 2001 01:47:53 -0000 Received: from RachelBOsb@aol.com by imo-m03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.87.8bd1fb2 (18406) for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:47:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <87.8bd1fb2.27f14b35@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 128 From: RachelBOsb@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:47:33 EST Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: eb2e74fd7e970b59e6256c16374b6bca Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 16 Hi, I'm Rachel, a new subsciber. I'm in a book group and it's my turn to pick the book and I'd like to have us read something by LeGuin. I've read pretty much everything she's written and I was just curious as to what people thought would be a good choice. Most of them have read little or none of her books. Any ideas on the ideal, intro? Something that would encourage good discussion? Thanks. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Mar 27 15:50:21 2001 Received: from mv.egroups.com (mv.egroups.com [208.50.144.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA03343 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:59:07 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-65-985665545-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Mar 2001 03:59:06 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Mar 2001 03:58:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 25749 invoked from network); 27 Mar 2001 03:58:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Mar 2001 03:58:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Mar 2001 03:58:55 -0000 Received: from [207.229.142.141] (207-229-142-141.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.141]) by mail.enteract.com (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f2R3wrv45914 for ; Mon, 26 Mar 2001 21:58:53 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <87.8bd1fb2.27f14b35@aol.com> References: <87.8bd1fb2.27f14b35@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 21:58:47 -0600 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ee99db52ca5a64551f6553301a60b1d0 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 27 >Hi, I'm Rachel, a new subsciber. I'm in a book group and it's my turn to pick >the book and I'd like to have us read something by LeGuin. I've read pretty >much everything she's written and I was just curious as to what people >thought would be a good choice. Most of them have read little or none of her >books. Any ideas on the ideal, intro? Something that would encourage good >discussion? Thanks. Hi Rachel! I'd suggest The Lathe of Heaven--partly because it's my all-time favorite book, but also for the following reasons: --It's imaginative, inventive, dramatic *and* it's got a bit of humor in it --It's a fairly quick read, yet beautifully written and philosophically substantial --It can lead to an interesting side discussion of Taoism (I realize that's true of a lot of UKL books, but with this one there are actual quotations from Taoist texts!)--as well as Utilitarianism, Anarchism and related social philosophies --There's the opportunity for a tie-in Video Night, if your group lends itself to that sort of thing; after you finish the book you can watch the PBS film which has just been released on video after two decades in captivity! My second choice (not a distant second by any stretch) would be The Left Hand of Darkness, because, well: --It's an undisputed, award-winning classic --Lots of provocative explorations of gender, sexuality, feminism, language to discuss --Did I mention that it's an undisputed, award-winning classic--and a masterpiece besides? However, there's no completed movie version (yet), and it is a longer and more demanding book than Lathe. That's my .02. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Mar 27 15:52:13 2001 Received: from jk.egroups.com (jk.egroups.com [208.50.144.83]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA19972 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 09:25:37 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-67-985713936-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Mar 2001 17:25:36 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Mar 2001 17:25:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 95526 invoked from network); 27 Mar 2001 17:25:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Mar 2001 17:25:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Mar 2001 18:26:39 -0000 Received: from [208.32.92.90] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4b7) with SMTP id 3313532 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:29:27 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010327102533.007f3450@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <87.8bd1fb2.27f14b35@aol.com> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 10:25:33 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: c97b6743e80a507bda8e80c45be719c4 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 104 At 08:47 PM 3/26/01 EST, you wrote: >Hi, I'm Rachel, a new subsciber. I'm in a book group and it's my turn to pick >the book and I'd like to have us read something by LeGuin. I've read pretty >much everything she's written and I was just curious as to what people >thought would be a good choice. Most of them have read little or none of her >books. Any ideas on the ideal, intro? Something that would encourage good >discussion? Thanks. My favorite is LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS. I think there are many ideas there that would generate discussion--the most obvious one being, of course, the nature of gender differences. Taoist influences could also encourage discussion. Considering the recent hype about the H Potter books, one could also suggest A WIZARD OF EARTHSEA, a far superior book to my way of thinking. Hope this helps... -=Fred=- People working fields, From my deepest heart, I bow. Now a little nap. - Issa - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Mar 27 15:52:15 2001 Received: from ck.egroups.com (ck.egroups.com [208.50.144.69]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09238 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:35:24 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-70-985732523-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ck.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Mar 2001 22:35:23 -0000 X-Sender: jenjavar@superior.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Mar 2001 22:35:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 39052 invoked from network); 27 Mar 2001 22:35:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Mar 2001 22:35:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.interramp.com) (38.8.45.2) by mta2 with SMTP; 27 Mar 2001 22:35:19 -0000 Received: from [38.26.192.234] (helo=jennifer.superior.net) by smtp1.interramp.com with esmtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com id 14hzfF-000440-00; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 15:02:01 -0500 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010327144536.00bdd100@mail.superior.net> X-Sender: jenjavar@mail.superior.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <985690151.932.74385.l10@yahoogroups.com> From: "Jennifer R. J." MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:58:41 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: FSFFU, etc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 2b698afd61510d08f32dbd7a20e025f4 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 150 At 10:49 AM 3/27/01 +0000, you wrote: >The FSFFU list is the Feminist Science Fiction, Fatasy and Utopia discussion >list... I was too lazy to type the whole title out. They have a regular >book discussion that can be quite interesting, although I think it's been a >while since they talked about Le Guin. >Jenn There are actually two Feminist SF lists (FSFFU and FSF-L). FSFFU is mostly unmoderated and off-topic discussion is not frowned upon, FSF-L is just for discussion of feminist SF literature. FSF-L hosts the book discussions. Always Coming Home was nominated for the book discussion last time and I did vote for it, but it wasn't one of the top four vote-getters. :( They discussed A Fisherman of the Inland Sea in March of 1999. For more information, check out these two URLs: http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/listserv/index.html Info about the two FSF lists. http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Comet/1304/ Info about the book discussions, including archives of past discussions. In more on-topic news, I recently bought Rocannon's World and Planet of Exile and I already had City of Illusions, so I'll be reading them soon. But first, The Dispossessed will be discussed in May on another list I'm on. I was really happy it got chosen because I nominated it. Jennifer ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Mar 27 15:52:14 2001 Received: from hm.egroups.com (hm.egroups.com [208.50.99.198]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA00818 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:15:33 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-68-985724132-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Mar 2001 20:15:32 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Mar 2001 20:15:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 62978 invoked from network); 27 Mar 2001 20:15:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Mar 2001 20:15:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta2 with SMTP; 27 Mar 2001 20:15:25 -0000 Received: from [207.229.142.150] (207-229-142-150.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.150]) by mail.enteract.com (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f2RKFNv02163 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:15:24 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:15:05 -0600 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] NZ Radio interview Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 60469eebadef32b33085bd76e6886f20 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 131 Susan Armstrong sent me info on a live Internet feed for the station broadcasting the UKL interview. Thanks, Susan! I assume this information was meant to be passed on to the list, so here it is: >I found a live internet feed of this station (which is going to be >discontinued on April 1, apparently - so let's hope the interview really is >coming up right away!). >If you go to this URL: > >HTTP://www.rnz.co.nz/live/live2a.htm > >the live stream should launch - it is embedded in the web page. You may >get some RealPlayer messages (including one saying that RealPlayer can't >play your selection). Just work your way through them, and push the "play" >button on the RealPlayer panel if necessary. Eventually the stream will >play. > >(This seems to be a privately run site, not administered - or authorized - >by NZ National Radio itself.) Thanks again for your detective work, Susan... best, Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> We give away $70,000 a month! Come to iWin.com for your chance to win! http://us.click.yahoo.com/olMXHC/BJVCAA/4ihDAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Mar 29 13:56:50 2001 Received: from fk.egroups.com (fk.egroups.com [64.211.240.232]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA00869 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 22:27:39 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-74-985760859-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Mar 2001 06:27:39 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 28 Mar 2001 06:27:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 8260 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2001 06:27:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Mar 2001 06:27:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.142) by mta2 with SMTP; 28 Mar 2001 06:27:38 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:18:19 -0800 Received: from 203.173.237.147 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:18:19 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.173.237.147] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2001 21:18:19.0907 (UTC) FILETIME=[726F8530:01C0B703] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 09:18:19 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Lathe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: fe01a64be9793eb616847840c540376b Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 Hi Rachel, welcome to the list. I was going to say The Lathe of Heaven too, because the chapter headnotes with quotes from Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu are really effective. My favourite is this one: Those whom heaven helps we call the sons of heaven. they do not learn by learning. They do not work by working. They do not reason it by using reason. To let understanding stop at what cannot be understood is a high attainment. Those who cannot do it will be destroyed on teh lathe of heaven. I think it's a good book to introduce people to Le Guin with because it's set on the near future west coast. This gives people a bit of a context in which to read, and should make is very interesting for the group if they've read any Philip K. Dick. I also love the division between the rational scientist and the non-rational dreamer in this book. Like much of Le Guin's work... it reminds me of Yevgeny Zamyatin's 'We', especially the distinction D-530 makes between rational reason and instinctual drive. the way he considers one civilised and the other primative. I think The Lathe of Heaven is one of those Le Guin books where she's taking steps on the way to 'getting there' (utopia). She's exploring what it -means- to be civilised in this book... and I love the way Always COming Home follows on from it. I'm so glad she talks about -her- West Coast in her fiction. But I was also thinking the Dispossessed, just because that's the book that really -got- me. It's one of those books you compulsively read cover to cover. Jenn >Hi, I'm Rachel, a new subsciber. I'm in a book group and it's my turn to >pick >the book and I'd like to have us read something by LeGuin. I've read pretty >much everything she's written and I was just curious as to what people >thought would be a good choice. Most of them have read little or none of >her >books. Any ideas on the ideal, intro? Something that would encourage good >discussion? Thanks. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> We give away $70,000 a month! Come to iWin.com for your chance to win! http://us.click.yahoo.com/olMXHC/BJVCAA/4ihDAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Mar 27 15:52:14 2001 Received: from fk.egroups.com (fk.egroups.com [64.211.240.232]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA05391 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:27:57 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-69-985728415-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Mar 2001 21:27:56 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 27 Mar 2001 21:26:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 67380 invoked from network); 27 Mar 2001 21:26:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Mar 2001 21:26:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.184) by mta1 with SMTP; 27 Mar 2001 21:26:53 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:26:53 -0800 Received: from 203.173.237.102 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:26:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.173.237.102] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Mar 2001 21:26:53.0271 (UTC) FILETIME=[A46CA670:01C0B704] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 09:26:53 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] NZ Radio interview Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: bde923750d0ce7a5a53ca42ed621f00c Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 138 Hi all. I believe that this radio site has big red letters telling the world what the time is in New Zealand. So if you're at this site at 9.00 am New Zealand time thursday and friday mornings (remember that New Zealand's a day ahead of America)... you will be able to hear Kim Hill announce who she's interviewing that day. I am going to tape it. My instincts tell me it's going to be Friday... she always interviews authors on Fridays, except for Phillip Pullman, who she interviewed on a Tuesday *gulps* Jenn >Susan Armstrong sent me info on a live Internet feed for the station >broadcasting the UKL interview. Thanks, Susan! I assume this >information was meant to be passed on to the list, so here it is: > > >I found a live internet feed of this station (which is going to be > >discontinued on April 1, apparently - so let's hope the interview really >is > >coming up right away!). > > >If you go to this URL: > > > >HTTP://www.rnz.co.nz/live/live2a.htm > > > >the live stream should launch - it is embedded in the web page. You may > >get some RealPlayer messages (including one saying that RealPlayer can't > >play your selection). Just work your way through them, and push the >"play" > >button on the RealPlayer panel if necessary. Eventually the stream will > >play. > > > >(This seems to be a privately run site, not administered - or authorized >- > >by NZ National Radio itself.) > >Thanks again for your detective work, Susan... > >best, >Dave >-- >_______________________________________________ >The new, improved Ocelot Factory: >http://www.ocelotfactory.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Mar 27 16:39:23 2001 Received: from jj.egroups.com (jj.egroups.com [208.50.144.82]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA15322 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 16:11:40 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-71-985738300-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Mar 2001 00:11:40 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 28 Mar 2001 00:11:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 75036 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2001 00:11:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Mar 2001 00:11:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.125) by mta3 with SMTP; 28 Mar 2001 01:12:42 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.143.92]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Wed, 28 Mar 2001 00:13:24 +0000 Message-ID: <3AC12BF5.23BC8F05@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <87.8bd1fb2.27f14b35@aol.com> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 01:10:29 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 9b233b59ea2707fb5a8b6f67dc8fadaa > Hi, I'm Rachel, a new subsciber. I'm in a book group and it's my turn to pick > the book and I'd like to have us read something by LeGuin. I've read pretty > much everything she's written and I was just curious as to what people > thought would be a good choice. Most of them have read little or none of her > books. Any ideas on the ideal, intro? Something that would encourage good > discussion? Thanks. I would suggest 'City of Illusions'. This was the third Le Guin I read after 'A Wizard of Earthsea' and 'The Tombs of Atuan'. I was aged twelve or so. The story was confusing and there were lots of things I didn't get, but I loved it, was immersed in it, was sad when I finished it. The way the book opens draws you in, you want to know what on earth is going on, who is this strange creature that the book seems to be about. You know, I tried to build a glass bead game after reading this book. And for a long time I was sure there must be a sequel that I just hadn't discovered, becuase I was left with so many questions at the end of it. Anyways, I reckon you would get a good argument (oops...discussion!) going after your group read it. chiz chiz rdg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Mar 27 16:39:23 2001 Received: from b05.egroups.com (b05.egroups.com [208.50.144.96]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA15405 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 16:13:02 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-72-985738381-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Mar 2001 00:13:01 -0000 X-Sender: nebula009@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 28 Mar 2001 00:13:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 84075 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2001 00:13:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Mar 2001 00:13:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web9406.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.129.22) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Mar 2001 00:13:00 -0000 Message-ID: <20010328001300.7954.qmail@web9406.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [142.66.51.28] by web9406.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 16:13:00 PST To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <87.8bd1fb2.27f14b35@aol.com> From: izzy rubin MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 16:13:00 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 215c04a80ab57efe1ad8e881bacc1969 --- RachelBOsb@aol.com wrote: > Hi, I'm Rachel, a new subsciber. I'm in a book group > and it's my turn to pick > the book and I'd like to have us read something by > LeGuin. I've read pretty > much everything she's written and I was just curious > as to what people > thought would be a good choice. Most of them have > read little or none of her > books. Any ideas on the ideal, intro? Something > that would encourage good > discussion? Thanks. i would definately have to recommend the left hand of darkness!! not only does it have a lot of social comment about gender and our ways of identifying ourselves through gender, politics (veiled references to the cold war between usa & russia), etc. but it is also a tale of adventure and emotion. it's the only one of her books i've ever cried over! the lathe of heaven is also a very interesting book, but imo, it's not as powerful as the left hand of darkness. :) > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Mar 29 13:56:11 2001 Received: from c3.egroups.com (c3.egroups.com [208.50.99.225]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA17495 for ; Tue, 27 Mar 2001 16:40:11 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-73-985740009-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Mar 2001 00:40:09 -0000 X-Sender: paula@ba.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 28 Mar 2001 00:40:07 -0000 Received: (qmail 20096 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2001 00:40:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 Mar 2001 00:40:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ferro2.ba.net) (66.60.8.100) by mta2 with SMTP; 28 Mar 2001 00:40:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 3562 invoked from network); 27 Mar 2001 21:48:54 -0000 Received: from h066060045116.isol.net.ar (HELO babydolphin) (66.60.45.116) by h066060008100.isol.net.ar with SMTP; 27 Mar 2001 21:48:54 -0000 Message-ID: <001e01c0b720$e2eea120$742d3c42@babydolphin> To: References: <87.8bd1fb2.27f14b35@aol.com> <3AC12BF5.23BC8F05@virgin.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Spam-Rating: h066060008100.isol.net.ar 1.6.2 0/1000/N From: "paula" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 21:49:00 -0300 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 754267997e29cbfa0b46c80040c59e74 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1 I also loved City of Illusions when i read it...I totally felt for the character and felt very very sad when it ended. I too was very young when i read it and it totally drew me in from the very beginning, it's all so confusing that you want to keep going to find out what will happen. I chose it for my american literature class that was focused on the theme of Journeys (physical and symbolic, external and internal) and of "going home". It was very interesting. It is a very tender story. Thank you for sharing that you liked it... :o) take care, paula. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Mar 29 13:57:37 2001 Received: from fh.egroups.com (fh.egroups.com [208.50.144.71]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA06068 for ; Wed, 28 Mar 2001 03:09:58 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-75-985777797-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Mar 2001 11:09:58 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 28 Mar 2001 11:09:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 80778 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2001 11:09:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 28 Mar 2001 11:09:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.50) by mta3 with SMTP; 28 Mar 2001 12:11:00 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 28 Mar 2001 03:09:56 -0800 Received: from 203.173.237.58 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Mar 2001 11:09:56 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.173.237.58] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Mar 2001 11:09:56.0627 (UTC) FILETIME=[9F32C630:01C0B777] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 23:09:56 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] "going home" in Le Guin's fiction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 11a09af791443f136c3e44d4f46b6a31 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 73 Paula wrote >I also loved City of Illusions when i read it [...] >I chose it for my american literature class that was focused on the >theme >of Journeys (physical and symbolic, external and internal) and >of "going >home". >It was very interesting. I love the way Le Guin looks at journeys, and the whole idea of 'going home'. I love the way Stone Telling changes her name at the end of her narrative in 'Always Coming Home' to Woman Coming Home. The thing that really grabs me is the circular journey pattern in Le Guin's fiction. There's a quote from 'A non-euclidan view of California as a very cold place to be' by Le Guin that I love: "Utopia has been yang. In one way or another, from Plato on, utopia has been the big yang motorcycle trip. Bright, dry, clear, strong, firm, active, aggressive, lineal, progressive, creative, expanding, advancing, and hot." She presents the traditional view of Utopia as one that depends on reason, one that is concerned with progress and going foward. And we've all seen where that's taken us! *grins* I like her alternative: the yin utopia. "It would be dark, wet, obscure, weak, yielding, passive, participatory, circular, cyclical, peaceful, nurturant, retreating, contracting, and cold." This type of Utopia seems to describe for the both the valley of the kesh and Anarres. Life is difficult, but unlike the traditional utopia (like that of Dostoevsky's grand inquisitor or the One State in 'We') there is no need to decide between freedom and happiness. I like the way that Le Guin's characters take circular, returning journeys. To get anywhere you have to go back to where you've been before. To go fowards you have to go backwards. I like the way Le Guin's 'getting to' utopia depends upon a journey on the part of the protagonist. 'Getting to utopia' is also a going home. By returning to where we started, we can discover what we've learnt on the way, I guess. It reminds me of the idea of the cyclical nature of history and the way the terran ambassador at the end of 'The Dispossessed' says something to Shevek along the lines of "we had our chance at revolution a millenia ago". Shevek takes the same journey as Stone Telling does... he goes to a strange place that makes no sense to him, becomes involved in the society but does not belong, eventually conflict arises and he makes the journey back home. The utopias in both books are ambiguous and in Always Coming Home: open-ended. You've got no idea where the utopia ends and dystopia begins, and I think you've also got no idea about the point at which the journey ends. sorry, I rambled a bit... I'm an ideas person, I could live on ideas if they had more protein. but the question is... does what I'm saying make sense to anyone else? Jenn _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Apr 01 22:59:28 2001 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Laura Quilter Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: bibliographies Cc: Bcc: ƒ\-lists\sf-femsf\the-ekumen X-Attachments: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010325215917.00b0f3b0@mail.superior.net> References: <985514443.477.61776.l10@yahoogroups.com> Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010401224508.04749750@isaac.exploratorium.edu> X-Eudora-Signature: hi, i'm laura quilter, and i'm actually on the list too -- very very happy to have
a le guin list active!  there are a couple of others on yahoo-groups (formerly
egroups) i noticed (yesterday while scanning egroups for feminist sf stuff),
        ursula_le_guin-owner@yahoogroups.com (which ended in september
2000 it looks like)
        unionkarhide@yahoogroups.com (described as "Discuss The Left
Hand of Darkness--a novel by Ursula K. LeGuin. This is a science fiction/
fantasy novel. It is also a classic and is studied in some schools." -- this
apparently was just established & i'm not sure of it's, err, intentions.)
        i do NOT want to encourage anyone to leave this list -- which is
great -- i just wanted to mention these others for the sake of
completism (?) .  i'm thrilled to finally see ursula le guin get this kind of
serious fan/scholar attention.  she has been one of my favorite authors
for years ...

laura quilter

At 10:06 PM 3/25/01 -0500, you wrote:

    For a good bibliography of LeGuin's short stories (although I don't
know if it's complete), Laura Quilter has one here:
http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authors/leguin/short.html
She has a whole LeGuin page located at:
http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authors/leguin/

Also, there is a bibliography of the stories collected in her anthologies
at: http://hem.passagen.se/peson42/lgw/books.html Just click on the titles
of the collections for listings of the stories.


>(oh, does anyone on this list belong to Laura Quilter's FSFFU list?)

    I do.  Are you on it too?
        Jennifer


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~>
Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep
in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered
high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/20DVlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------_->

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
From ???@??? Tue Apr 03 16:29:48 2001 Received: from ci.egroups.com (ci.egroups.com [64.211.240.235]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA01059 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 01:38:54 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-77-986200730-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2001 08:38:50 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_0_1); 2 Apr 2001 08:38:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 15809 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2001 08:38:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2001 08:38:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.75) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Apr 2001 09:39:53 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 01:38:49 -0700 Received: from 203.173.236.160 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:38:48 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.173.236.160] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Apr 2001 08:38:49.0197 (UTC) FILETIME=[56A781D0:01C0BB50] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:38:48 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] UKL radio interview Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 27129736a84cad469e3334abb0c1b1d1 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 Well, Le Guin -was- finally on New Zealand National Radio last Friday. The interview was about 35 minutes long and it was wonderful hearing her talk, she talked about Taoism and about how there are going to be two more Earthsea books and about why it is that young adults are so drawn to science fiction. A lot of what she said was very familiar to me, so it was a real pleasure to hear it straight from the horse's mouth. I seem to remember Le Guin writing something about the power of crones at some time... an essay in something... and listening to the interview, I really did get a sense of her wisdom and pragmitism (not necessarily the -rational- kind of pragmatism, I just mean the kind of common sense that makes sense to me... and there aren't many more non-rational modes than that!). Being in New Zealand, I'll probably never have the opportunity to hear Le Guin speak (unless I actually do make it to being a proffessor of Literature and the Environment and attend some colloquium or something that she's at) so it's great to have had the opportunity to hear what she has to say, as well as what she writes. I'll try and find the time to type out a transcript of the interview for you all, and I'm as pleased as Laura is that this list exists. Jenn _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Apr 03 16:29:49 2001 Received: from hh.egroups.com (hh.egroups.com [208.50.99.210]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA06408 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 07:03:56 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-78-986220235-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2001 14:03:55 -0000 X-Sender: ventus@poczta.onet.pl X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_0_1); 2 Apr 2001 14:03:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 26630 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2001 14:03:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2001 14:03:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hl.egroups.com) (10.1.10.44) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Apr 2001 14:03:54 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: ventus@poczta.onet.pl Received: from [10.1.10.64] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2001 14:03:53 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9aa0s5+i5gr@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.0.110.108 From: "Súrion Epeirodis" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 14:03:49 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Polls Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3c3daeaa13dfe93fa09fa82083ed5bae Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 48 Hi! I'd like to remind you that there is a poll on the server of this list named "What kind of UKL's books do you prefer: SF or Fantasy". There are only 4 votes and 50 members. I know it can be difficult to choose - but try! Regards Surion Epeirodis ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Apr 03 16:29:58 2001 Received: from fj.egroups.com (fj.egroups.com [64.211.240.231]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA09961 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 09:05:18 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-79-986227516-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Apr 2001 16:05:16 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_0_1); 2 Apr 2001 16:05:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 72548 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2001 16:05:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2001 16:05:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Apr 2001 17:06:18 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA28651 for ; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 12:05:13 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010402120921.0085b210@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 12:09:21 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 4b4d5ed4636593dca2e7debd83187c1c Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 88 Hi Rachel If you're still taking suggestions, I'd have to throw my vote to Left Hand of Darkness. In addition to all the things everybody is saying about it, the mythology in it is beautiful, the power politics is plausible and above all else, it is perhaps the most compelling story of love I have ever read. Reading it is a great experience, and there is so much to talk about. I hope you choose it and I wish I could join your group! Speaking of which, what else has your group read? vin At 08:47 PM 3/26/01 EST, you wrote: >Hi, I'm Rachel, a new subsciber. I'm in a book group and it's my turn to pick >the book and I'd like to have us read something by LeGuin. I've read pretty >much everything she's written and I was just curious as to what people >thought would be a good choice. Most of them have read little or none of her >books. Any ideas on the ideal, intro? Something that would encourage good >discussion? Thanks. > ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 f: 203 531 9748 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Apr 04 11:24:32 2001 Received: from fl.egroups.com (fl.egroups.com [64.211.240.233]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA07713 for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:36:49 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-80-986344607-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2001 00:36:48 -0000 X-Sender: RachelBOsb@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 4 Apr 2001 00:36:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 37511 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2001 00:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Apr 2001 00:36:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m05.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.8) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 01:37:50 -0000 Received: from RachelBOsb@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.14.) id r.c4.122533c4 (24902) for ; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 20:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 128 From: RachelBOsb@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 20:36:38 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 5c71ed2489399a8408dead096d40bb7e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 25 Thanks to everyone who's made suggestions about my book group. My "turn" isn't actually until September but I just reread Lathe of Heaven and am drawn to that, I love to reread with someone else's perspective in mind and I really got a lot out of thinking about Taoism in connection with this book which I didn't do at all when I first read it 20 years ago. So now I'll reread Left Hand although I've never been as drawn to that book as many others are, I'm not sure why. In answer to what else my bookgroup has read I actually have a list of everything since 1993 but not on my computer and no scanner so when I have time I'll type it up and send it to you, vin, personally since it doesn't really pertain to the list. Thanks again ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Apr 04 11:25:25 2001 Received: from mk.egroups.com (mk.egroups.com [208.50.144.76]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA00820 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:21:51 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-81-986397711-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Apr 2001 15:21:51 -0000 X-Sender: heyiya@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 4 Apr 2001 15:21:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 40100 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2001 15:21:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Apr 2001 15:21:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.50) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 15:21:47 -0000 Received: from [38.28.130.114] (ip114.portland12.or.pub-ip.psi.net [38.28.130.114]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21603 for ; Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:21:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: heyiya@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: heather w MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 08:28:43 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] when it rains it pours? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: b2bfaac1b80227f5ef50a74b90cc4626 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 153 this was posted to the previously mentioned FSFFU list: > From: Brian Arnold (courtesy the PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER) > ... James Caan (The Godfather) and Lukas Haas (Witness) will star in A&E's > remake of The Lathe of Heaven, based on the novel by science fiction > author Ursula K. LeGuin and directed by Philip Haas (Angels and Insects). > Lukas Haas will play George Orr, a young man who can alter reality through > his dreams, who seeks the help of a psychiatrist (Caan). Lisa Bonet (The > Cosby Show) plays George's attorney and friend. . . (are Philip and Lukas related?) as the person who posted to the other list commented, why can't they make a movie of *another* LeGuin story? I know she wrote a screenplay for Left Hand of Darkness. I wish she'd publish it since it's as close to a re-write regarding use of gender in that book as we'll ever see -- when I heard her speak about it at Readercon 5 in 1994, she said she tried to remove unnecessary gender references and use he or she in reference to folks in kemmer (and that she'd like to see Michael Dorn as Genly and Sigourney Weaver and Estraven). For a taste of what I imagine it would be like, see "Coming of Age in Karhide," a short story included in New Legends collection (ed. by Greg Bear?) and maybe a Year's Best anthology. Heather, who will be taking a short story class taught by UKL starting this saturday. AIEEEE! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple heyiya@earthlink.net ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Apr 06 17:21:15 2001 Received: from ho.egroups.com (ho.egroups.com [64.211.240.236]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13975 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 16:31:04 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-82-986599864-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Apr 2001 23:31:04 -0000 X-Sender: Apimentel@campero.com.gt X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 6 Apr 2001 23:31:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 8757 invoked from network); 6 Apr 2001 23:31:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Apr 2001 23:31:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO jk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.92) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Apr 2001 23:31:01 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Apimentel@campero.com.gt Received: from [10.1.10.103] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Apr 2001 23:31:01 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9aljjj+mfig@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 216.230.145.2 From: Apimentel@campero.com.gt MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 23:30:59 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: d32cfba1228240ed8cda5f611176107f Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 287 Hi, I'm new to the list and I'm glad to find a list to discuss about my favorite writer. Today I find the poll and that put me in a very difficult task, what do I prefer sf or fantasy? Is difficult to decide with someone like Ursula, who works so fine in both worlds, but I think what makes most difficult to decide is that she is a so great story teller, really a master in its craft, that every thing that she does she does good, very good. So I prefer to vote for both, I love both, maybe I you ask me what book, and even then I'll be in big trouble. I prefer not to rate and to adhere every novel to the baggage of my own history. Regards, Axel Pimentel, from Guatemala. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Get great low international calling rates from Net2Phone! Click Here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/pOl7zD/kJXCAA/4ihDAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Apr 06 17:21:15 2001 Received: from b05.egroups.com (b05.egroups.com [208.50.144.96]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA15633 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 17:07:48 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-83-986602067-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2001 00:07:48 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 7 Apr 2001 00:07:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 75168 invoked from network); 7 Apr 2001 00:07:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Apr 2001 00:07:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO backup.enteract.com) (207.229.143.61) by mta2 with SMTP; 7 Apr 2001 00:07:41 -0000 Received: from [207.229.172.9] (207-229-142-163.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.163]) by backup.enteract.com (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f3707d173285 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 19:07:39 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9aljjj+mfig@eGroups.com> References: <9aljjj+mfig@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 19:07:31 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f51c2f0da399b6054930dace1a8be4b8 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 294 Axel wrote: >Hi, I'm new to the list and I'm glad to find a list to discuss about >my favorite writer. Hi Axel, welcome to the list. >Today I find the poll and that put me in a very >difficult task, what do I prefer sf or fantasy? Is difficult to >decide with someone like Ursula, who works so fine in both worlds, >but I think what makes most difficult to decide is that she is a so >great story teller, really a master in its craft, that every thing >that she does she does good, very good. So I prefer to vote for both, >I love both, maybe I you ask me what book, and even then I'll be in >big trouble. My sentiments exactly, and that's why I haven't voted in the poll. If there were a third option, "Like them both equally," I would pick that one, and I suspect a lot of others here would as well. But I would be lying to some degree if I chose either of the two options currently available. (Of course, UKL says that all writers are liars so maybe I should just deal with it!) It should also be noted that a number of UKL's books combine elements of both fantasy *and* SF (Rocannon's World, Lathe of Heaven, Always Coming Home, etc.) so it's not really a cut-and-dried distinction in her work. best, Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Apr 06 17:21:44 2001 Received: from ci.egroups.com (ci.egroups.com [64.211.240.235]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA15870 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 17:14:25 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-84-986602464-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2001 00:14:24 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 7 Apr 2001 00:14:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 87852 invoked from network); 7 Apr 2001 00:14:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Apr 2001 00:14:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO backup.enteract.com) (207.229.143.61) by mta2 with SMTP; 7 Apr 2001 00:14:20 -0000 Received: from [207.229.172.9] (207-229-142-163.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.163]) by backup.enteract.com (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f370EI174534 for ; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 19:14:18 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 19:13:13 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] when it rains it pours? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 101d6c9d3fa786ab7014ca89c89e4a6e Heather wrote: >as the person who posted to the other list commented, why can't they >make a movie of *another* LeGuin story? I know she wrote a >screenplay for Left Hand of Darkness. I agree, it would be really nice to see something else of UKL's brought to the screen--in addition to Left Hand, I think the Dispossessed and Four Ways to Forgiveness have wonderful cinematic qualities. Still, maybe the new version of Lathe will do some good by bringing attention to her work, and maybe that will lead to projects for other books? >Heather, who will be taking a short story class taught by UKL >starting this saturday. AIEEEE! Okay, this makes me so jealous that my tea mug is trembling in my hands. Please, please, please tell me that you'll be giving us detailed descriptions of everything that transpires in the class. Or whatever you can manage. Pretty please? best, Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Apr 08 18:44:47 2001 Received: from c3.egroups.com (c3.egroups.com [208.50.99.225]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA02430 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 08:22:23 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-86-986743343-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Apr 2001 15:22:23 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 8 Apr 2001 15:22:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 25600 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2001 15:22:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Apr 2001 15:22:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.173) by mta2 with SMTP; 8 Apr 2001 15:22:18 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:00:26 -0700 Received: from 203.173.236.62 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 07 Apr 2001 06:00:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.173.236.62] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Apr 2001 06:00:26.0117 (UTC) FILETIME=[0A715350:01C0BF28] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 18:00:25 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 0e00fe1c7b4bd376d74e27e6b6dca93c Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 74 Dave wrote: >My sentiments exactly, and that's why I haven't voted in the poll. If >there were a third option, "Like them both equally," I would pick >that one, and I suspect a lot of others here would as well. But I >would be lying to some degree if I chose either of the two options >currently available. (Of course, UKL says that all writers are liars >so maybe I should just deal with it!) > >It should also be noted that a number of UKL's books combine elements >of both fantasy *and* SF (Rocannon's World, Lathe of Heaven, Always >Coming Home, etc.) so it's not really a cut-and-dried distinction in >her work. I agree. It's so hard to call something science fiction or something fantasy these days. a lot of the time I think that those labels are just there to make things easy for the publishers and booksellers. I couldn't label Always Coming Home if I tried, because it relies on science, but also on myth and on magical or spiritual ideas and fantasy motifs like the journey or quest, the same can be said for The Dispossessed, just because it's a science fiction novel does not mean that it does not speak to that part of us that believes in magical, rich, intricate human worlds like those that can be found in good Fantasy. This can be said for all of Le Guin's novels. She loves Tolkein, and at times has a rural kind of fantasy that reminds me of Pamela Dean and John. M. Ford, but at the same time she has the fire of revolution in her that many science fiction writers express, and she uses science to shape new ideas for us to consider. In the end, I guess it doesn't really matter whether a story is driven by science or magic, it's that a world of -some sort- has been created that is important, because the existence of that world gives us the chance to say 'what if'. So I just prefer to call it all 'speculative fiction' and not vote for one genre or the other. Part of that may also be because each book stands alone so incredibly. Jenn _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Apr 07 10:11:00 2001 Received: from hi.egroups.com (hi.egroups.com [208.50.99.211]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA29881 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2001 04:38:30 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-85-986643509-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2001 11:38:30 -0000 X-Sender: ventus@poczta.onet.pl X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 7 Apr 2001 11:38:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 4038 invoked from network); 7 Apr 2001 11:38:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Apr 2001 11:38:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hi.egroups.com) (10.1.10.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Apr 2001 11:38:26 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: ventus@poczta.onet.pl Received: from [10.1.10.63] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Apr 2001 11:38:26 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9amu7f+djpg@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.0.110.108 From: "Súrion Epeirodis" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 11:38:23 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: c4e92f476ec6e2a33ded3753853d2971 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 59 > My sentiments exactly, and that's why I haven't voted in the poll. If > there were a third option, "Like them both equally," I would pick > that one, and I suspect a lot of others here would as well. But I And that's exactly why I didn't put this option. :) Everybody would vote on this. > would be lying to some degree if I chose either of the two options > currently available. (Of course, UKL says that all writers are liars > so maybe I should just deal with it!) > > It should also be noted that a number of UKL's books combine elements > of both fantasy *and* SF (Rocannon's World, Lathe of Heaven, Always > Coming Home, etc.) so it's not really a cut-and-dried distinction in > her work. Earthsea is fantasy because there are dragons and magic. Hain is SF because there is no magic (it is telepathy and similar things). This is how I distinguished these two kinds. Regards Surion ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Apr 08 18:44:48 2001 Received: from cj.egroups.com (cj.egroups.com [208.50.144.68]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA06590 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 11:43:57 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-87-986755436-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Apr 2001 18:43:57 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 8 Apr 2001 18:43:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 25509 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2001 18:43:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Apr 2001 18:43:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hn.egroups.com) (10.1.2.221) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Apr 2001 18:43:54 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: jdawley@bellatlantic.net Received: from [10.1.10.93] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Apr 2001 18:43:54 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9aqbh5+ulgk@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 64.222.82.105 From: "Janice Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 18:43:49 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Greetings and An Offering Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: dad5a6a2e91faa38830f3ea3d8311521 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 88 Hi everyone -- I've been lurking here for the last few months and felt that it was about time to introduce myself. I've been a Le Guin fan since college when I read *The Left Hand of Darkness* and *The Dispossessed* in quick succession. I had been a science fiction reader up to that time, but I had never encountered SF that was so subtle, conceptually sophisticated and engaged with moral questions. Over the past fifteen years I have read most of her novels and stories and feel that they have to some extent shaped who I am. I am very happy that there is finally a mailing list devoted to her work! The Feminist SF mailing lists that Laura Quilter runs (I'm a long-time member) have discussed Le Guin now and then, but it's nice to have a Le Guin-only forum. Now to the offering part of the message. A couple of people mentioned that they were looking for bibliographies. I'm not sure if that means bibliographies of things Le Guin has written or bibliographies of things written *about* her. If the former, you might find the lists I've put together helpful. If you go to the Ekumen mailing list homepage at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-ekumen and click the "Database" link you'll find two tables. One is a listing of Le Guin's published novels, the other a listing of her published short stories, complete with info about what collection(s) they can be found in. These tables can be exported and printed or downloaded to your hard drive. Take a look and let me know what you think. In the future I plan to add a table of her essays, perhaps others... Any requests? Best wishes -- ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Apr 08 18:45:53 2001 Received: from hp.egroups.com (hp.egroups.com [208.50.99.201]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA11349 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 15:15:07 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-88-986768106-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Apr 2001 22:15:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 41067 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2001 22:15:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Apr 2001 22:15:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mw.egroups.com) (10.1.2.2) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Apr 2001 22:15:04 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: notify@yahoogroups.com Received: from [10.1.10.68] by mw.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Apr 2001 22:15:03 -0000 Message-ID: <986768101.324.67226.jc@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: poll From: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 8 Apr 2001 22:15:01 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] New poll for the-ekumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ad7977e4491207c7e51f74d4f9e71354 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 99 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the the-ekumen group: Now that The Lathe of Heaven is getting its second film treatment, which of UKL's other books would you most like to see brought to life on the screen? o Left Hand of Darkness o The Dispossessed o A Wizard of Earthsea/Earthsea Quartet o The Beginning Place o The Eye of the Heron o Four Ways to Forgiveness o Very Far Away from Anywhere Else o The World for World is Forest o Rocannon's World o Planet of Exile o City of Illusions o Malafrena o The Telling o A Fisherman of the Inland Sea (story) o The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas (story) To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-ekumen/polls Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Apr 08 18:45:53 2001 Received: from fj.egroups.com (fj.egroups.com [64.211.240.231]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA11495 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 15:24:24 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-89-986768663-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Apr 2001 22:24:24 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 8 Apr 2001 22:24:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 50447 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2001 22:24:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Apr 2001 22:24:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO backup.enteract.com) (207.229.143.61) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Apr 2001 23:25:26 -0000 Received: from [207.229.142.175] (207-229-142-175.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.175]) by backup.enteract.com (8.11.1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f38MOL113602 for ; Sun, 8 Apr 2001 17:24:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9aqbh5+ulgk@eGroups.com> References: <9aqbh5+ulgk@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 17:24:02 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Database/Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 5c41d04f59f615fc9e380601cabf93e0 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 100 Janice wrote: >Take a look and let me know what you think. Thanks, Janice! Those tables are a great resource that will be much appreciated, I think. I thought it was especially nice that you noted which fictional universe each work belongs to. As Yahoo has already announced, I just set up the new "movie poll," just for fun. If there's a lot of response to this poll, there may be a follow-up question: "If Wizard of Earthsea were made into a film, would you rather see it done as an animated version, or live action?" which is something I can't make up my own mind about. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Apr 09 17:57:07 2001 Received: from fk.egroups.com (fk.egroups.com [64.211.240.232]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA06920 for ; Mon, 9 Apr 2001 17:24:03 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-90-986862241-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2001 00:24:02 -0000 X-Sender: Apimentel@campero.com.gt X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 10 Apr 2001 00:24:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 94838 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2001 00:23:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2001 00:23:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Apr 2001 00:23:59 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Apimentel@campero.com.gt Received: from [10.1.2.56] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2001 00:23:58 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9atjqq+h4tt@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 216.230.145.2 From: "Axel" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:23:54 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] UKL interview and story Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f4afd12313b7655ee0f0aa8afac95bc5 Status: RO X-Status: F X-Keywords: X-UID: 70 Hi, fellow ekumenians: I found the following two links that you may find interesting, the first is a interview with UKL by Mark B. Wilson, where she talks about the Telling and the upcoming Earthsea books, and about literature in general. The second is a complete story FREE, The Flyers of Gy, An Interplanary Tale by Ursula K. Le Guin. So, enjoy yourself! Axel. http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue189/interview.html http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/originals/originals_archive/leguin/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Apr 10 12:37:14 2001 Received: from mk.egroups.com (mk.egroups.com [208.50.144.76]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA28142 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:36:23 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-91-986909782-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2001 13:36:22 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 10 Apr 2001 13:36:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 22361 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2001 13:36:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Apr 2001 13:36:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Apr 2001 13:36:20 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA11371 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:36:19 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010410011232.00860100@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 01:12:32 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UIDL: dc5050198e200d86a4548e292ed61b74 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 60 I really cannot agree with the folks who are saying that the distinction between fantasy and sf is arbitrary or a mere contrivance for the convenience of book marketers. Certainly both are valid genres and speak to their respective audiences. As for me, I agree with Súrion's simple distinction that if there's magic it's fantasy. And the distinction is important to me because fantasy leaves me cold while UKL's sf (which has a strong and beautiful spiritual side) enthralls me. I love experiencing a sense of wonder, as we do when we are children and we know magic because the world is beautiful and scary beyond comprehension, but I'm an adult now, and I get that feeling when I see something profound or beautiful in people, as when UKL has Estraven hear Genly's bespoken voice as that of a dead relative -- so simple and deep a connection between grief, life, the characters' tenuous hold on life, and the spiritual place where we can, sometimes, visit those whose loss breaks our hearts. It is a literary gesture in the middle of a journey that opens a world. Why read about magic when to be human is, in itself, magical? Why read about magic when you can have a spell cast over you? Why write about magic when you can, by writing, >>do<< magic? I would so love to ask that woman this question. Anyhow, I note that last time I looked at the poll, it was 100% in favor of SF. Which perhaps means the fantasy fans abstain, demonstrating a more open minded taste. I wonder if the reader classification would work out to: SF-only SF-fantasy and no fantasy-only best to all vin At 06:00 PM 4/7/01 +1200, you wrote: >Dave wrote: > >>My sentiments exactly, and that's why I haven't voted in the poll. If >>there were a third option, "Like them both equally," I would pick >>that one, and I suspect a lot of others here would as well. But I >>would be lying to some degree if I chose either of the two options >>currently available. (Of course, UKL says that all writers are liars >>so maybe I should just deal with it!) >> >>It should also be noted that a number of UKL's books combine elements >>of both fantasy *and* SF (Rocannon's World, Lathe of Heaven, Always >>Coming Home, etc.) so it's not really a cut-and-dried distinction in >>her work. > >I agree. It's so hard to call something science fiction or something >fantasy these days. a lot of the time I think that those labels are just >there to make things easy for the publishers and booksellers. I couldn't >label Always Coming Home if I tried, because it relies on science, but also >on myth and on magical or spiritual ideas and fantasy motifs like the >journey or quest, the same can be said for The Dispossessed, just because >it's a science fiction novel does not mean that it does not speak to that >part of us that believes in magical, rich, intricate human worlds like those >that can be found in good Fantasy. > >This can be said for all of Le Guin's novels. She loves Tolkein, and at >times has a rural kind of fantasy that reminds me of Pamela Dean and John. >M. Ford, but at the same time she has the fire of revolution in her that >many science fiction writers express, and she uses science to shape new >ideas for us to consider. In the end, I guess it doesn't really matter >whether a story is driven by science or magic, it's that a world of -some >sort- has been created that is important, because the existence of that >world gives us the chance to say 'what if'. > >So I just prefer to call it all 'speculative fiction' and not vote for one >genre or the other. Part of that may also be because each book stands alone >so incredibly. > >Jenn >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 f: 203 531 9748 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Apr 10 12:37:33 2001 Received: from fh.egroups.com (fh.egroups.com [208.50.144.71]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA05244 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:22:29 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-92-986919748-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by fh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2001 16:22:28 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 10 Apr 2001 16:22:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 84212 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2001 16:21:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Apr 2001 16:21:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hn.egroups.com) (10.1.2.221) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Apr 2001 16:21:43 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: jdawley@bellatlantic.net Received: from [10.1.2.43] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2001 16:21:40 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9avbu8+lhrm@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 207.140.66.215 From: "Janice Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:21:28 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by isaac.exploratorium.edu id JAA05244 X-UIDL: 1a536cafd00c062875c7199d2b873ad5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 122 Vin Urbanowski wrote: >As for me, I agree with Súrion's simple distinction that if there's >magic it's fantasy. And the distinction is important to me because >fantasy leaves me cold while UKL's sf (which has a strong and >beautiful spiritual side) enthralls me. > >I love experiencing a sense of wonder, as we do when we are children >and we know magic because the world is beautiful and scary beyond >comprehension, but I'm an adult now, and I get that feeling when I >see something profound or beautiful in people, as when UKL has >Estraven hear Genly's bespoken voice as that of a dead relative -- >so simple and deep a connection between grief, life, the characters' >tenuous hold on life, and the spiritual place where we can, >sometimes, visit those whose loss breaks our hearts. I love that scene too. But, just for the sake of argument -- don't you think telepathy seems pretty magical? The fact that it is an element of many science fiction books seems to argue against the distinction you are making. That being said, I do think that Le Guin's science fiction and fantasy are, in most cases, easily distinguishable from one another. The tropes are different (space ships vs. dragons, etc.) and her writing style is different, the SF being more straightforwardly realistic than her fantasy, which uses denser, more metaphorical language. I thought the Earthsea books were full of profound and beautiful insights into people. I will never forget the scene in *A Wizard of Earthsea* when Ged finally confronts the shadow that has been stalking him and finds that it is himself. So many fantasy books are about vanquishing the safely distanced and evil Other -- Le Guin's subverts that theme by showing (through her Universal Fantasy Protagonist, Ged) that many people are their own worst enemies. *The Tombs of Atuan* and *The Farthest Shore* were very rewarding for me as well (*Tehanu* less so), though it's been too long since my last reading of them for particular scenes to spring to mind. With *Tales from Earthsea* coming out soon, maybe I have an excuse to read them all again? ;-) >Anyhow, I note that last time I looked at the poll, it was 100% in >favor of SF. Which perhaps means the fantasy fans abstain Yes, that is the case with me. Just out of curiosity, have you read much of Le Guin's fantasy? -- Janice Dawley ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Apr 10 12:37:33 2001 Received: from mw.egroups.com (mw.egroups.com [208.50.144.94]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA11972 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:03:12 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-93-986925788-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mw.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2001 18:03:09 -0000 X-Sender: ventus@poczta.onet.pl X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 10 Apr 2001 18:03:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 16879 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2001 18:03:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2001 18:03:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO b05.egroups.com) (10.1.2.184) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Apr 2001 18:03:04 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: ventus@poczta.onet.pl Received: from [10.1.2.117] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2001 18:03:03 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9avhsm+mn71@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <9avbu8+lhrm@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.0.110.129 From: "Súrion Epeirodis" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:03:02 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 9782b614a5355e1f45be13bdb170e88d Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 151 > >tenuous hold on life, and the spiritual place where we can, > >sometimes, visit those whose loss breaks our hearts. > > I love that scene too. But, just for the sake of argument -- don't > you think telepathy seems pretty magical? The fact that it is an > element of many science fiction books seems to argue against the > distinction you are making. Telepathy is usually an element of aliens' life. It doesn't occur - I think - in the same way as in fantasy where it is "performed" by magic. It is a natural part of creature's behaviour. As we know (in our world) it is still examined by para-scientists who are still closer and closer to real science so it cannot be said that telepathy indicates fantasy-like elements of narrative. > That being said, I do think that Le Guin's science fiction and > fantasy are, in most cases, easily distinguishable from one another. They are. But what with "Buffalo Gals"? > I thought the Earthsea books were full of profound and beautiful > insights into people. I will never forget the scene in *A Wizard of > Earthsea* when Ged finally confronts the shadow that has been > stalking him and finds that it is himself. So many fantasy books are > about vanquishing the safely distanced and evil Other -- Le Guin's > subverts that theme by showing (through her Universal Fantasy > Protagonist, Ged) that many people are their own worst enemies. There are so many scenes I cannot forget and they are still in frony of my eyes. There are so many sentences which I cannot forget and they are still a voice in my head! Didn't you like the beginnig of "We are a dream"? About medusa? Amazing! Just to ask you all: what are your favourite scenes and sentences (mottoes) taken from UKL's books? Regards Surion Epeirodis ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Apr 10 17:53:19 2001 Received: from mr.egroups.com (mr.egroups.com [208.50.144.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA19075 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:46:12 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-94-986931960-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mr.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2001 19:46:04 -0000 X-Sender: Apimentel@campero.com.gt X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 10 Apr 2001 19:45:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 18155 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2001 19:45:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Apr 2001 19:45:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Apr 2001 19:45:34 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Apimentel@campero.com.gt Received: from [10.1.10.68] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2001 19:45:33 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9avnsq+ttip@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <9avhsm+mn71@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 216.230.145.2 From: "Axel" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 19:45:30 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: bc6f154bb43644285691ac9527938e77 I just want ad another comment to my former post on sf-fantasy poll: I'm a sf fan, not a fantasy fan (on the basis of what do I read most, I like both), and I began to read fantasy with the Earthsea trilogy, because I was so well impressed by the UKL narrative on sf that I wanted to read everything done by her. My point is: UKL is so good in both fields that I can't make a good choice, of course, you can classify his writings by genre, but what do I prefer....? I love both! Is not that I can't discern between sf and fantasy, but I can't answer to that poll. In fact I did, but later I regret, and I place the original post, because I wasn't happy with my original choice. My choice now is: everything by UKL. Best regards, Axel. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Apr 10 17:54:12 2001 Received: from mv.egroups.com (mv.egroups.com [208.50.144.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA02399 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:09:35 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-95-986944175-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Apr 2001 23:09:35 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 10 Apr 2001 23:09:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 77583 invoked from network); 10 Apr 2001 23:09:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Apr 2001 23:09:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.123) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Apr 2001 23:09:33 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.70.21]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 10 Apr 2001 23:11:23 +0000 Message-ID: <3AD3925E.FE940350@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 00:08:14 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 1683e6622ad23fd8d2c6b0070c5e11c1 Jenn Martin wrote: > Dave wrote: > > >It should also be noted that a number of UKL's books combine elements > >of both fantasy *and* SF (Rocannon's World, Lathe of Heaven, Always > >Coming Home, etc.) so it's not really a cut-and-dried distinction in > >her work. > > I agree. It's so hard to call something science fiction or something > fantasy these days. a lot of the time I think that those labels are just > there to make things easy for the publishers and booksellers. I couldn't > label Always Coming Home if I tried, because it relies on science, but also > on myth and on magical or spiritual ideas and fantasy motifs like the > journey or quest, the same can be said for The Dispossessed, just because > it's a science fiction novel does not mean that it does not speak to that > part of us that believes in magical, rich, intricate human worlds like those > that can be found in good Fantasy. > I disagree with both of you. 'The Dispossessed' doesn't contain any fantasy motifs (elves: nope; wizards: nope; magic swords: nope; dark lords: nope; I could go on). Just because Shevek goes on a journey doesn't mean you can call it a quest and claim the book for fantasy. (Other Books With Journeys In Them Which Also Are Not Fantasy: 'The Canterbury Tales' (Chaucer), 'Frankenstein' (Shelley), 'De la terre a la lune' (Verne), 'Treasure Island' (R L Stevenson), 'The Thirty-nine Steps' (John Buchan), I could go on). The equation that geographical progress equals narrative progress is a story-telling universal. 'Always Coming Home' is clearly, unambiguously rooted in our world. It says as much at the very start of the book, in "A First Note". The Lathe of Heaven' is also set here on Earth. It depicts enormous "magic", but all of the magic comes from the one premise that George Orr has effective dreams. This method of proposing one change to the actual physical universe and then working out the consequences is a standard one in science fiction. 'Rocannon's World' does have elves and dwarves, but it also has relativistic space travel, and after a while we discover that the elves and dwarves are all human stock, who have undergone a little divergent evolution. Perhaps you want to classify these books as fantasy because UKL doesn't write like other science fiction writers. Her science fiction novels don't feel like science fiction. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Apr 10 18:35:59 2001 Received: from fj.egroups.com (fj.egroups.com [64.211.240.231]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA08927 for ; Tue, 10 Apr 2001 18:22:42 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-96-986952161-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Apr 2001 01:22:41 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@impop.bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 11 Apr 2001 01:22:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 80683 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2001 01:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2001 01:22:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp6ve.mailsrvcs.net) (206.46.170.27) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Apr 2001 02:23:43 -0000 Received: from zion.mailbox.bellatlantic.net (adsl-64-222-81-156.burlvt.adsl.bellatlantic.net [64.222.81.156]) by smtp6ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA10307864 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:26:32 GMT Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010410204851.01d1bae0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Sender: jdawley@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9avhsm+mn71@eGroups.com> References: <9avbu8+lhrm@eGroups.com> X-eGroups-From: "Janice E. Dawley" From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:26:51 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by isaac.exploratorium.edu id SAA08927 X-UIDL: 2e3bd65e34fbaeaf5a4f8af4eda09edf At 06:03 PM 4/10/01 +0000, Súrion Epeirodis wrote: >Telepathy is usually an element of aliens' life. It doesn't occur >- I think - in the same way as in fantasy where it is "performed" by >magic. It is a natural part of creature's behaviour. As we know (in >our world) it is still examined by para-scientists who are still >closer and closer to real science so it cannot be said that telepathy >indicates fantasy-like elements of narrative. I don't agree that telepathy plays a different role in science fiction than it does in fantasy. Certainly in Le Guin's Hainish universe it is not just something that aliens do -- it is an aptitude that humans innately possess but that needs to be learned. In *The Left Hand of Darkness*, when Genly Ai uses mindspeech with Estraven, he is attempting to teach him the skill. I think a similar dynamic is seen in much fantasy. Some people are extraordinarily gifted and learn how to sense things, empathically or telepathically, by themselves; others have to be taught; some don't have the skill, etc. There is nothing scientific about it -- unless astrology, numerology, and palmistry are sciences. I enjoy the idea of telepathy and the fictional possibilities it affords -- don't get me wrong! -- but to say that it exists in the real world is going too far for me. > > That being said, I do think that Le Guin's science fiction and > > fantasy are, in most cases, easily distinguishable from one > > another. > >They are. But what with "Buffalo Gals"? How could it be anything but fantasy? A more confusing example is *Rocannon's World*. How would people categorize that one? > > I thought the Earthsea books were full of profound and beautiful > > insights into people. I will never forget the scene in *A Wizard of > > Earthsea* when Ged finally confronts the shadow that has been > > stalking him and finds that it is himself. So many fantasy books are > > about vanquishing the safely distanced and evil Other -- Le Guin's > > subverts that theme by showing (through her Universal Fantasy > > Protagonist, Ged) that many people are their own worst enemies. > >There are so many scenes I cannot forget and they are still in >frony of my eyes. There are so many sentences which I cannot forget >and they are still a voice in my head! Didn't you like the beginnig >of "We are a dream"? About medusa? Amazing! I'm not sure what you are referring to. Is this a short story of Le Guin's that I haven't read? >Just to ask you all: what are your favourite scenes and sentences >(mottoes) taken from UKL's books? Wow, let's see... I love the quotes from Gethenian mythology in *The Left Hand of Darkness*. And the beginning of the chapter "On the Ice", which is so lyrical and touching that I nearly wept just now re-reading it! The scene in *The Dispossessed* when Bedap tells Shevek what happened to Tirin. Can I include all of *Very Far Away from Anywhere Else*? I will stop there or I will go on forever. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Apr 11 11:40:36 2001 Received: from mv.egroups.com (mv.egroups.com [208.50.144.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA27970 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 06:39:34 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-97-986996373-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Apr 2001 13:39:33 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 11 Apr 2001 13:39:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 7157 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2001 13:39:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2001 13:39:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta2 with SMTP; 11 Apr 2001 13:39:30 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA01784 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 09:39:27 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010411015524.00861650@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9avbu8+lhrm@eGroups.com> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 01:55:24 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-UIDL: d3995da44b4685b283f103031f2d20ac Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 62 At 04:21 PM 4/10/01 -0000, Janice wrote: when UKL has >>Estraven hear Genly's bespoken voice as that of a dead relative -- >>so simple and deep a connection between grief, life, the characters' >>tenuous hold on life, and the spiritual place where we can, >>sometimes, visit those whose loss breaks our hearts. > >I love that scene too. But, just for the sake of argument -- don't >you think telepathy seems pretty magical? The fact that it is an >element of many science fiction books seems to argue against the >distinction you are making. THis might be a good place to remember that theology is pretty much the same thing as philosophy except for the assumption that God, though unprovable, exists. I buy telepathy in the Ekumen as a biological phenomenon and accept it as such, as a theologian accepts the anamolous presence of God within an otherwise rigorous discipline of thought. Plus telepathy itself is a natural extension of thinking, dreaming and communicating, so in a way, we've all experienced part of what it is. THis is not true of magic. Though I may wish I had the power to heal with a touch, for example, and may have even dreamed it, there is nothing in my life experience that maps to it. I cannot have done it, or anything analogous, therefore it is fantasy. Maybe that goes to a deeper distinction between fantasy and sf: if the situations and actions are based on a reality you can touch, it's sf, while if the situations and actions are based on a reality you can >>only<< imagine, it's fantasy... Which, I guess, is a generalization of Janice's comment that UKL's sf is more straightforwardly realistic than her fantasy. I will never forget the scene in *A Wizard of >Earthsea* when Ged finally confronts the shadow that has been >stalking him and finds that it is himself. > >Just out of curiosity, have you read much of Le Guin's fantasy? NAILED! I gave up on Tolkein in the 70s, even though he was pretty much required, along with pot and guitars, of anyone of artistic bent who wanted a social life. I found him dense and boring; his characters way too slow to reveal themselves. I tried to read The Last Unicorn, which my girlfriend loved and which was made into an animated feature, and found myself wondering if her companionship was worth the tedium of that read. And plus I really tried to play D&D. These experiences wrecked the whole genre for me. So no, I haven't read UKL's fantasy. Until today. You, Janice, and all the UKL fantasy readers on this board, shamed me into shopping for Wizard of Earthsea this afternoon and subsequently extending my lunch hour by reading the first two chapters over fried chicken at Roy Rogers instead of working. I totally love it so far, and find myself applying my theology justification to the magic. Perhaps I've mellowed. Perhaps UKL is a better storyteller than Tolkein. But this time, I clearly see the magic as a simple metaphor for the gift and challenge of human power over the world on an individual and social basis. Ged's magic in the military encounter is ultimately a wonderful coming-of-age story. Thanks, btw, Súrion, for starting the conversation. My boss and her good friend (a high-powered business consultant) and I had a lot of fun arguing the sf/ fantasy question far too long into the night at Oona's on 53rd and 8th in NYC earlier this evening. If you (or anyone else in this group) are ever around, I'll buy you a beer there some time! thanks to all vin ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 f: 203 531 9748 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Apr 11 11:40:50 2001 Received: from b05.egroups.com (b05.egroups.com [208.50.144.96]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA10597 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:52:28 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-98-987011547-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Apr 2001 17:52:27 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 11 Apr 2001 17:52:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 10399 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2001 17:52:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 11 Apr 2001 17:52:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Apr 2001 17:52:23 -0000 Received: from [208.2.167.74] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4b7) with SMTP id 3655279 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:52:43 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010411105217.00817b50@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010411015524.00861650@pop.netmeg.net> References: <9avbu8+lhrm@eGroups.com> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 10:52:17 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a7770b817f6b4d85ffd0135086d3afdf Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 114 At 01:55 AM 4/11/01 -0400, you wrote: >NAILED! I gave up on Tolkein in the 70s, even though he was pretty much >required, along with pot and guitars, of anyone of artistic bent who wanted >a social life. I found him dense and boring; his characters way too slow to >reveal themselves. I tried to read The Last Unicorn, which my girlfriend >loved and which was made into an animated feature, and found myself >wondering if her companionship was worth the tedium of that read. And plus >I really tried to play D&D. These experiences wrecked the whole genre for >me. So no, I haven't read UKL's fantasy. > >Until today. Perhaps because I consider 19th century novels to be far more interesting than most contemporary works, I have developed a taste for the slower moving, patiently constructed works. That may be why I find Tolkien's works to be completely satifying--my favorite fantasy work and one of my favorite works of fiction in any category. On the other hand, I tried and failed to get through THE LAST UNICORN. I prefer SF to fantasy generally, but there are exceptions--Tolkien being one, of course. Another fantasy work which I enjoyed was Le Guin's Wizard of Earthsea trilogy. I found the recently published fourth book, however, as I have generally found works written many years after the series first came out, to be much less satisfying, fantasy or SF. In fact, I can't think of any at present. I also enjoyed Greg Bear's and CJ Cherryh's works about the Sidhe. Both provided considerable differences from the typical works regarding fantasy elements. I never once thought about King Arthur and the Round Table while reading any of the works by the four authors I've mentioned. -=Fred=- People working fields, From my deepest heart, I bow. Now a little nap. - Issa - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Apr 12 19:58:28 2001 Received: from c3.egroups.com (c3.egroups.com [208.50.99.225]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA11352 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:09:10 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-99-987127750-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 13 Apr 2001 02:09:10 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 13 Apr 2001 02:09:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 79431 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2001 02:09:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2001 02:09:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.223) by mta2 with SMTP; 13 Apr 2001 02:09:08 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 19:09:08 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.19 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 02:09:08 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.19] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Apr 2001 02:09:08.0803 (UTC) FILETIME=[B965C130:01C0C3BE] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:09:08 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] genre distinctions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f92237d7e49af8315713e20dece5cf4c I prefer not to make a distinction between fantasy and science fiction because there are just SO MANY books that sit in the middle. Fantasy usually leaves me cold, but then a beautiful book like Pamela Dean's 'The Dubious Hills' comes along, the story of a rural fantasy land that uses Gerald Manly Hopkins and Shakespeare poetry as spells and that is set in the future of this world, now. A book like that has magic and a projection of the distant future in it. Where does a book like this belong? what about Le Guin novels that are set in science fiction universes, but that have fantasy quest and journey motifs? What about Sherri S Tepper's 'A Plague of Angels', where archetypal fantasy villages are set up on a futuristic earth? I don't believe that the genre distinction is arbitrary, or a mere contrivance, I simply think that, as with all genres, we have passed the classic stage, and are now at a point where genre's cross so much that it is very difficult to work out which peg fits in which hole. This is why I prefer to just call it all speculative fiction. To put this back on topic... I think one of the most interesting thigns about Le Guin is that she writes fantastic and science fiction equally as well, it is a credit to her that she can entertain both ways of seeing the world and use them to each other's advantage. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Join Audio Book Club today and receive 4 Audio Books for 1 cent PLUS a Free Cassette Player. Choose from hundreds of the latest audio books, everything from John Grisham to Sydney Sheldon. http://us.click.yahoo.com/.mMGlC/tfYCAA/rZ8EAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Apr 15 19:12:20 2001 Received: from ei.egroups.com (ei.egroups.com [64.211.240.237]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA22685 for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 00:08:05 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-100-987318485-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 15 Apr 2001 07:08:05 -0000 X-Sender: dicooper@home.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 15 Apr 2001 07:08:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 10688 invoked from network); 15 Apr 2001 07:08:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 15 Apr 2001 07:08:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ei.egroups.com) (10.1.2.114) by mta1 with SMTP; 15 Apr 2001 07:08:04 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: dicooper@home.com Received: from [10.1.10.68] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 15 Apr 2001 07:08:04 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9bbhci+beuo@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 24.64.223.203 From: "Dianne C." MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 07:08:02 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Logging in. Hi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: e839064fa0855583709cea70e75d617a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 27 Just saying Hi. Just found this group. I keep my copy of "Always Coming Home" just lying around somewhere, all the time. So much of it seems inspirational to me somehow. I like the idea of the space between the arms of the heyiya-if, a place of "nothingness" and "all", so ambiguous and yet true. I like Stonetelling's arrival at stoicism, guides on how to live in community, the cultural 'objects' (poems, the houses, etc.) I wonder what happened in the rest of the Kesh novel, to the husband whose wife disappeared. Perhaps I am missing the point. Am I correct in thinking that Pandora is Ms. Le Guin? Perhaps these topics are discussed on other sites and I will check the links. This story wasn't on the list for the poll of what we'd like to see on the "big" screen. Yes, it would be sad to see it overly dramatized. But it would be a good series, don't you think, or dramatize parts of it for a study course for philosophy or economics or sociology, or something, or all, or life. Anyway. Glad this group is here. Dianne C. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Apr 17 19:45:13 2001 Received: from fj.egroups.com (fj.egroups.com [64.211.240.231]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA24651 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:13:46 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-103-987534822-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Apr 2001 19:13:43 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 17 Apr 2001 19:13:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 94228 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2001 19:12:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2001 19:12:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.168) by mta2 with SMTP; 17 Apr 2001 19:12:31 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 14:09:17 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.19 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 15 Apr 2001 21:09:17 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.19] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Apr 2001 21:09:17.0938 (UTC) FILETIME=[553EDD20:01C0C5F0] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:09:17 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Always Coming Home Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 430bd347493362d365af8ea0db9fffa8 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 394 Hi Diane, welcome to the group. Always Coming Home is my favourite Le Guin book. I used to spend hours when I was younger with maps and old copies of the national geographic, trying to work out where The Valley was.... I think Le Guin pays a whole lot of roles in the book: Housewife, Writer, Creator, Editor, Anthropologist (as Pandora)... many others. I love the book so much because it's like our house on the West Coast of New Zealand: land in a valley that was once used for gold, with small hummocky hills, and is now just the country, with wild grass and scrub and swallows in the canyons... when I read Always Coming Home, I always think of my valley. It's such a wonderfully realised book, despite it not having one complete narrative, it feels like the most complete. I always have a copy near me as well. Jenn _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Apr 17 19:43:52 2001 Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [208.50.144.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA08224 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 07:40:54 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-101-987518454-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Apr 2001 14:40:54 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 17 Apr 2001 14:40:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 30251 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2001 14:40:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2001 14:40:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 Apr 2001 14:40:08 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA11916 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:40:06 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010417104439.0083fb20@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010411105217.00817b50@208.2.166.100> References: <3.0.5.32.20010411015524.00861650@pop.netmeg.net> <9avbu8+lhrm@eGroups.com> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:44:39 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f7607c41c224087f782e03a0aead12c5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 324 At 10:52 AM 4/11/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Perhaps because I consider 19th century novels to be far more interesting >than most contemporary works, I have developed a taste for the slower >moving, patiently constructed works. Amazingly, Fred, on the same lunch hour when I bought UKL's A Wizard, I also picked up the Penguin ed of Melville stories including Bartelby, which has just been re-interpreted as a film -- the NYT reviewer used the occasion to claim Melville as America's Kafka, which as a depressive artist type, I could not resist. I've tried to see what I was missing in Tolkein by reading him to my 5-year-old son as bedtime literature. He can't get into it. ("Please, not that hobbit story again, dad!") Meanwhile, he is getting so much out of the rather slow-moving Moby Dick that the 19th-century literary language isn't putting him to sleep (as I had partly hoped!), and last Saturday morning he stuck his leg into a fat mailing tube and started limping around the house and yelling, "Lower away! Lower away! Beach me on the beast!" Anyhow, maybe this Tolkein thing is genetic. >On the other hand, I tried and failed to get through THE LAST UNICORN. > Well this awakening I'm having in Earthsea has certainly been an object lesson to me in literary prejudice -- just because The Last Unicorn may have actually been a bad book, it doesn't mean all fantasy novels are bad. (hmm. snobbery. prejudice. bogotry. such fine lines...) >I prefer SF to fantasy generally, but there are exceptions--Tolkien being >one, of course. Another fantasy work which I enjoyed was Le Guin's Wizard >of Earthsea trilogy. I found the recently published fourth book, however, >as I have generally found works written many years after the series first >came out, to be much less satisfying, fantasy or SF. In fact, I can't >think of any at present. > Case in point: Have you read House Atreides? >I also enjoyed Greg Bear's and CJ Cherryh's works about the Sidhe. Both >provided considerable differences from the typical works regarding fantasy >elements. I never once thought about King Arthur and the Round Table while >reading any of the works by the four authors I've mentioned. Back to The Honesty Room: I keep telling myself I hate fantasy, and yet Once and Future King, (along with Lion witch & Wardrobe, Chronicles of Amber and now Wizard of Earthsea) are among my favorites. Is that true for you too? Are what we call exceptions (including Tolkein in your case) really the norm of fantasy, and we are saying we dislike fantasy because we are simply not so blinded by love of the genre we can be critical in our appreciation of fantasy? THat is, does a lack of overt appreciation of the fantasy genre give us the true freedom to enjoy it on a case by case basis? > > > > > >-=Fred=- > > People working fields, > From my deepest heart, I bow. > Now a little nap. > - Issa - > >email: fredr@gci-net.com > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 f: 203 531 9748 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Apr 17 19:45:13 2001 Received: from ei.egroups.com (ei.egroups.com [64.211.240.237]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA19060 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:53:20 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-102-987529999-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Apr 2001 17:53:19 -0000 X-Sender: dandean@optonline.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 17 Apr 2001 17:53:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 34023 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2001 17:53:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 Apr 2001 17:53:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mk.egroups.com) (10.1.1.30) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 Apr 2001 17:53:08 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: dandean@optonline.net Received: from [10.1.2.55] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Apr 2001 17:53:06 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9bhvu1+hn59@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 24.187.248.9 From: "Lysander (Dan)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:53:05 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Book Discussions!!!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: cca7b493745c69241a1537659b6eac08 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 381 Hey everyone- I'd like to Announce two great Yahoo! Discussion Groups: "Beyond_Reality" (sci-fi books), and "Fantasy_Books" (fantasy books) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beyond_Reality http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fantasy_Books These groups each feature a Book-Of-The-Month Discussion, and I'd love to see some Ursula Le Guin books in the discussions! Each month, the members of these groups nominate whatever books they want us all to read for a group discussion. Then we all vote for favorite choices! Then we all have a month to read the book that wins, and then discuss it! Its a lot of fun! Everyone is invited to join in either or both of them! The Sci-Fi site (Beyond_Reality) is just getting started and taking book nominations at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beyond_Reality The Fantasy site (Fantasy_Books) is already well under way at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fantasy_Books Right now we reading ASSASSIN'S APPRENTICE, by Robin Hobb for our discussion beginning on May 1st, and we are voting for our next book! Come on in! Lysander ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Apr 18 15:49:45 2001 Received: from mq.egroups.com (mq.egroups.com [208.50.144.79]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA08671 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:28:26 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-104-987632906-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Apr 2001 22:28:26 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 18 Apr 2001 22:28:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 19474 invoked from network); 18 Apr 2001 22:28:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Apr 2001 22:28:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 Apr 2001 22:28:25 -0000 Received: from [208.8.55.11] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4b7) with SMTP id 3820184 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:29:02 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010418152816.0081e400@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010417104439.0083fb20@pop.netmeg.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20010411105217.00817b50@208.2.166.100> <3.0.5.32.20010411015524.00861650@pop.netmeg.net> <9avbu8+lhrm@eGroups.com> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 15:28:16 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] sf-fantasy Poll Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a8920969c9fefe0ad895e9b3a8142def Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 200 At 10:44 AM 4/17/01 -0400, you wrote: >Amazingly, Fred, on the same lunch hour when I bought UKL's A Wizard, I >also picked up the Penguin ed of Melville stories including Bartelby, which >has just been re-interpreted as a film -- the NYT reviewer used the >occasion to claim Melville as America's Kafka, which as a depressive artist >type, I could not resist. "Bartleby" is one of my favorite short works, but I can't see Melville as our Kafka. Bartleby was written almost at the end of Melville's disheartening career as a novelist, and I think it reflects his view of his situation at that time. Kafka's POV was part of him from the beginning--at least I didn't find anything that suggested he had changed over the years, to put it badly. >I've tried to see what I was missing in Tolkein by reading him to my >5-year-old son as bedtime literature. He can't get into it. ("Please, not >that hobbit story again, dad!") Meanwhile, he is getting so much out of the >rather slow-moving Moby Dick that the 19th-century literary language isn't >putting him to sleep (as I had partly hoped!), and last Saturday morning he >stuck his leg into a fat mailing tube and started limping around the house >and yelling, "Lower away! Lower away! Beach me on the beast!" Anyhow, maybe >this Tolkein thing is genetic. Could be, or simply learning, also. I also found that several classics did nothing for me either when I first tried to read them. Decades later I went back and found that many had "immeasureably improved" since I last saw them. Some didn't... Can't win 'em all. >Well this awakening I'm having in Earthsea has certainly been an object >lesson to me in literary prejudice -- just because The Last Unicorn may >have actually been a bad book, it doesn't mean all fantasy novels are bad. >(hmm. snobbery. prejudice. bogotry. such fine lines...) I'm not saying that THE LAST UNICORN was a bad book; I just didn't enjoy reading it. The problem may be me--not the book. >Case in point: Have you read House Atreides? Glanced through it--had no difficulty in deciding to put reading it off for another time. > >Back to The Honesty Room: I keep telling myself I hate fantasy, and yet >Once and Future King, (along with Lion witch & Wardrobe, Chronicles of >Amber and now Wizard of Earthsea) are among my favorites. Is that true for >you too? White's ONCE AND FUTURE KING series is excellent. I enjoyed it. I also enjoyed CS Lewis's Mars series. Never read his Narnia works. I overdosed on the first five books of Amber and never finished the series. >Are what we call exceptions (including Tolkein in your case) really the >norm of fantasy, and we are saying we dislike fantasy because we are simply >not so blinded by love of the genre we can be critical in our appreciation >of fantasy? THat is, does a lack of overt appreciation of the fantasy genre >give us the true freedom to enjoy it on a case by case basis? Could be--I don't know. I find most fantasy to be rehashed tales of knights, dragons, quests, dwarves, magic talismans, trolls.... Those I enjoy appear to me to go beyond the traditional trappings and plot. -=Fred=- Under the winter moon, The river wind. Sharpens the rocks. - Chora - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Apr 19 18:07:50 2001 Received: from hh.egroups.com (hh.egroups.com [208.50.99.210]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA21458 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:15:26 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-105-987646525-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2001 02:15:25 -0000 X-Sender: iwr77@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 19 Apr 2001 02:15:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 21149 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2001 02:15:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Apr 2001 02:15:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ch.egroups.com) (10.1.10.51) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Apr 2001 02:15:24 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: iwr77@hotmail.com Received: from [10.1.2.52] by ch.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2001 02:15:23 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9blhno+hl0d@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010418152816.0081e400@208.2.166.100> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 65.9.172.44 From: "Ian W. Riddell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 02:15:20 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] New Member Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: d3f9a8ba5bd02655fbd5763d9f4bcac4 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 13 Greetings all. I just joined up with this group today and am thrilled to find other fans of Ms. LeGuin. I would have to say that her Fantasy works are my favorites. Probably because they are the ones I have read and read and read again. I can still remember standing in my school library in fourth grade and pulling the copy of "A Wizard of Earthsea" off the shelf and deciding that this might be an interesting book to read. I'm actually re-reading it now, spurred on by my recent reading of "The Tales of Earthsea". I will admit to not having read 2 of LeGuin's works: Malafrena and (this is damning to admit, I know) Always Coming Home. I started Always Coming Home and just didn't get into it. Now, I will say that that was a bad part of my life and I'm going to go back and try again (once I get through my re-read of the Earthsea books). Is Malafrena worth it. Seems to be neither Fantasy nor Science Fiction. Despite what I said above, "Left Hand of Darkness" is on my "best books ever" list and "The Telling" made me cry so many times I lost track. Glad to find other fans to talk with. blessings widdy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Apr 19 18:07:50 2001 Received: from fl.egroups.com (fl.egroups.com [64.211.240.233]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA24423 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:39:58 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-106-987651596-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Apr 2001 03:39:56 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@impop.bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 19 Apr 2001 03:39:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 73036 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2001 03:39:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Apr 2001 03:39:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp10ve.mailsrvcs.net) (206.46.170.142) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Apr 2001 03:39:54 -0000 Received: from zion.mailbox.bellatlantic.net (adsl-64-222-81-33.burlvt.adsl.bellatlantic.net [64.222.81.33]) by smtp10ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08279 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:36:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010418233326.01eb3220@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Sender: jdawley@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9blhno+hl0d@eGroups.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20010418152816.0081e400@208.2.166.100> X-eGroups-From: "Janice E. Dawley" From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:42:39 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] New Member Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: c83208adc8770de7f7d61660954efc6f Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 At 02:15 AM 4/19/01 +0000, Ian W. Riddell wrote: >Is Malafrena worth it. Seems to be neither Fantasy nor Science >Fiction. I liked *Malafrena* very much. It's true that it doesn't fit neatly into a genre. If anything, it's Alternative History. Mainly it concerns social justice and revolution, as do, in their different ways, *The Dispossessed*, *The Eye of the Heron* and *Four Ways to Forgiveness* -- while at the same time being a turning point in Le Guin's treatment of female characters. I recommend it. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Apr 21 11:40:58 2001 Received: from fl.egroups.com (fl.egroups.com [64.211.240.233]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27012 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:11:16 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-107-987865875-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Apr 2001 15:11:15 -0000 X-Sender: iwr77@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 21 Apr 2001 15:11:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 19422 invoked from network); 21 Apr 2001 15:11:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 21 Apr 2001 15:11:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.46) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Apr 2001 15:11:13 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: iwr77@hotmail.com Received: from [10.1.4.67] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Apr 2001 15:11:12 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9bs7ue+ogh0@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010418233326.01eb3220@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 65.9.172.44 From: "Ian W. Riddell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:11:10 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: New Member Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 639c3cb678ced449b8daf51c0a520013 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 29 --- In the-ekumen@y..., "Janice E. Dawley" wrote: > I liked *Malafrena* very much. It's true that it doesn't fit neatly into a > genre. If anything, it's Alternative History. Mainly it concerns social > justice and revolution, as do, in their different ways, *The Dispossessed*, > *The Eye of the Heron* and *Four Ways to Forgiveness* -- while at the same > time being a turning point in Le Guin's treatment of female characters. I > recommend it. > Thanks. I've just decided to re-read all of Earthsea and then the rest of LeGuin's novels chronologically. When I get to it, I'll let you know what I thought. widdy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Apr 25 17:29:30 2001 Received: from mu.egroups.com (mu.egroups.com [64.211.240.238]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA18403 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 15:27:51 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-108-988237670-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Apr 2001 22:27:50 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 25 Apr 2001 22:27:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 18188 invoked from network); 25 Apr 2001 22:27:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 25 Apr 2001 22:27:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta3 with SMTP; 25 Apr 2001 22:27:49 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.66.200]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:26:52 +0000 Message-ID: <3AE74E63.592CDDAD@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <3.0.5.32.20010418152816.0081e400@208.2.166.100> <5.0.2.1.2.20010418233326.01eb3220@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:23:30 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] New Member Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6d36425e9c2f37bbbed505070115629a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 104 "Janice E. Dawley" wrote: > > I liked *Malafrena* very much. It's true that it doesn't fit neatly into a > genre. If anything, it's Alternative History. Mainly it concerns social > justice and revolution, as do, in their different ways, *The Dispossessed*, > *The Eye of the Heron* and *Four Ways to Forgiveness* -- while at the same > time being a turning point in Le Guin's treatment of female characters. I > recommend it. "Malafrena" is the one I have reread more times than any other, so I suppose I rate it. But... I don't quite see how it is a turning point vis-a-vis female characters. Enlighten me... chiz chiz rdg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Apr 26 14:23:41 2001 Received: from hi.egroups.com (hi.egroups.com [208.50.99.211]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA28802 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 18:51:37 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-109-988249897-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Apr 2001 01:51:37 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@impop.bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 26 Apr 2001 01:51:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 72111 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2001 01:51:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Apr 2001 01:51:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp9ve.mailsrvcs.net) (206.46.170.141) by mta3 with SMTP; 26 Apr 2001 01:51:35 -0000 Received: from zion.mailbox.bellatlantic.net (adsl-64-222-80-30.burlvt.adsl.bellatlantic.net [64.222.80.30]) by smtp9ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA12828 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:51:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010425195307.01d3a140@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Sender: jdawley@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3AE74E63.592CDDAD@virgin.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20010418152816.0081e400@208.2.166.100> <5.0.2.1.2.20010418233326.01eb3220@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-eGroups-From: "Janice E. Dawley" From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:55:02 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Malafrena (was Re: [the-ekumen] New Member) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3dbb4ba292309638e0f3f9f5645cb101 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 13 At 11:23 PM 4/25/01 +0100, Roddy Graham wrote: >"Malafrena" is the one I have reread more times than any other, so I >suppose I rate it. But... >I don't quite see how it is a turning point vis-a-vis female characters. >Enlighten me... Well, now I am looking at the publishing dates of Le Guin's novels and thinking that maybe *Very Far Away from Anywhere Else* was the turning point. But never mind that for now -- here is my reasoning. Women were quite scarce as characters in Le Guin's fiction for a long time. When they did appear they were often mere sketches or the barbaric halves of romantic dyads (Rolery in *Planet of Exile*, Tenar in *The Tombs of Atuan*, even to an extent Heather Lelache in *The Lathe of Heaven*), fascinated by, and eventually tamed by, more humane or civilized men. There's a certain uneasy distance, I feel, between the author and her female characters until *Malafrena*, when her polarity to some extent reversed and men became the Others. I'm overstating the case, perhaps, but I do think there is an underlying truth to it. As a bolster to my argument, I offer this excerpt from an interview with Le Guin that was included in a book called *Across the Wounded Galaxies* edited by Larry McCaffery (I recommend this book -- McCaffery's questions are intelligent and his other interviewees include such eminent authors as Thomas Disch, Samuel Delany, Joanna Russ, and Gene Wolfe): ----- LE GUIN: I got the idea for [Malafrena] in the early '50s, but for a long time it never worked itself out. I would occasionally find myself doing a bash at it, but it wasn't right and I'd put it away again. I had eventually put it away in despair when some editor asked for something, and so I thought I might as well have another look at it. I had to rewrite it almost totally. This time it seemed to work. MCCAFFERY: It's amusing that so many reviewers kept saying things like, "With *Malafrena* Le Guin has at last decided to work her way into the mainstream." LE GUIN: I was surprised and amused as well. There are whole paragraphs and passages that are very old and hadn't been changed at all. But there were things I needed to rethink entirely. Getting the women characters right. Itale was always OK, the men's story was easy, but I had a terrible time with the women. I didn't understand them. I especially didn't understand what was happening with Piera, the heroine. I know now why: I needed to become a conscious feminist to understand why my women were acting this way and what was happening in their relationships. Without the teaching of the movement of the '70s, I would never have got the book unstuck. So although the general conception of the book was twenty years old and bits and pieces of it remain intact, I can't say *Malafrena* was one of those books found in the bottom of a trunk; it kept coming out of the trunk and being worked on, and then hurled back in despair. Until I finally grew up enough to write it. ----- I'd be interested to know your thoughts about *Malafrena*. I have the feeling that even among Le Guin fans it's hardly ever read, let alone re-read so many times. What do you like about it so much? ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Apr 26 14:24:08 2001 Received: from hp.egroups.com (hp.egroups.com [208.50.99.201]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA05953 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:38:23 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-110-988267103-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Apr 2001 06:38:23 -0000 X-Sender: dicooper@home.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 26 Apr 2001 06:38:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 61069 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2001 06:38:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Apr 2001 06:38:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Apr 2001 06:38:21 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: dicooper@home.com Received: from [10.1.10.116] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 26 Apr 2001 06:38:21 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9c8fot+hvsc@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 24.64.223.206 From: "Dianne C." MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:38:21 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Always Coming Home Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 7c5c439cddc19d1247ccec2df8670942 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 --- In the-ekumen@y..., "Jenn Martin" wrote: > I think Le Guin pays a whole lot of roles book: Housewife, Writer, > Creator, Editor, Anthropologist (as Pandora)... many others. True, true. I checked my copy and rediscovered the last "Pandora" entry after I posted. I just picked up "Planet of Exile". Her stories draw the reader in quickly. I'm not a "trained" reader so I hope my comments are somewhat intelligent--I just like her stories. I have a valley, too. It's in the mountains, though, but big. If your valley is like this one it must be sooo beautiful. I have lived away from "my" valley for two decades and perhaps made the same attitude error as page 204 "My mind was not freed. It was held inside the Valley, instead of holding the Valley inside it." Like S.T., I'm returning to live there this summer. I guess that's part of why one likes a book--because one identifies with certain aspects. I try to hold the gist of some of her elements in my awareness throughout the day, like: "one note, once only in the wilderness", the nothingness/everythingness at the centre of the heyiya-if, and the sound the drum makes being there before it was struck. "My" valley is further north than California, and inland, so there are no quail but there are meadowlarks, coyotes, cougars. I'm tempted to pick up everyfeather I find. What are some of your favourite quotes? Dianne C. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed May 02 13:10:03 2001 Received: from mo.egroups.com (mo.egroups.com [208.50.144.78]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA15576 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2001 03:06:04 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-111-988538764-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mo.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Apr 2001 10:06:04 -0000 X-Sender: ventus@poczta.onet.pl X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 29 Apr 2001 10:05:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 99109 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2001 10:05:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2001 10:05:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hi.egroups.com) (10.1.10.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Apr 2001 10:05:59 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: ventus@poczta.onet.pl Received: from [10.1.10.104] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Apr 2001 10:05:59 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9cgp25+6psc@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20010410204851.01d1bae0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.0.110.124 From: "Súrion Epeirodis" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 10:05:57 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: sf-fantasy Poll => Janice E. Dawley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 4fbcb57e4cbb7dace20a8b3118f019f8 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 105 > I don't agree that telepathy plays a different role in science fiction than > it does in fantasy. Certainly in Le Guin's Hainish universe it is not just > something that aliens do -- it is an aptitude that humans innately possess > but that needs to be learned. In *The Left Hand of Darkness*, when Genly Ai > uses mindspeech with Estraven, he is attempting to teach him the skill. I > think a similar dynamic is seen in much fantasy. Some people are > extraordinarily gifted and learn how to sense things, empathically or > telepathically, by themselves; others have to be taught; some don't have > the skill, etc. There is nothing scientific about it -- unless astrology, > numerology, and palmistry are sciences. I enjoy the idea of telepathy and > the fictional possibilities it affords -- don't get me wrong! -- but to say > that it exists in the real world is going too far for me. But - still - in SF telepathy is something that is given by genes, in fantasy it is something given by magic or gods. If telepathy doesn't exist why is it investigated and why e.g. psychology doesn't say it doesn't exist. I know it's quite an extereme fenomenon and is easily neglected. > >There are so many scenes I cannot forget and they are still in > >frony of my eyes. There are so many sentences which I cannot forget > >and they are still a voice in my head! Didn't you like the beginnig > >of "We are a dream"? About medusa? Amazing! > > I'm not sure what you are referring to. Is this a short story of Le Guin's > that I haven't read? Sorry. I translated the title from Polish language. It is "Lathe of heaven". Regards Surion ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed May 02 13:10:07 2001 Received: from hl.egroups.com (hl.egroups.com [208.50.99.197]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA20114 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2001 08:41:09 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-112-988558867-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Apr 2001 15:41:08 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@impop.bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 29 Apr 2001 15:41:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 14021 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2001 15:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Apr 2001 15:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp10ve.mailsrvcs.net) (206.46.170.142) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Apr 2001 15:40:53 -0000 Received: from zion.mailbox.bellatlantic.net (adsl-64-222-82-243.burlvt.adsl.bellatlantic.net [64.222.82.243]) by smtp10ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA04909 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2001 04:37:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010429111853.00a650f0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Sender: jdawley@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9cgp25+6psc@eGroups.com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20010410204851.01d1bae0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-eGroups-From: "Janice E. Dawley" From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:46:00 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: sf-fantasy Poll => Janice E. Dawley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by isaac.exploratorium.edu id IAA20114 X-UIDL: 8494d7e50f62dfc0e4bb94f3592d609d Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 130 At 10:05 AM 4/29/01 +0000, Súrion Epeirodis wrote: > But - still - in SF telepathy is something that is given by >genes, in fantasy it is something given by magic or gods. Isn't this the way science fiction does its "hand-waving"? Of course there will be made-up scientific explanations for those elements of the story that contradict natural laws as we now know them. The different rationales that are used don't alter the fact that these story elements appear in SF and fantasy for the same reasons: to move the story along or to provide a "wow" factor. Le Guin herself has said that she came up with the idea of the ansible merely to serve the story, i.e. that she wanted her characters to be able to communicate with one another without having to wait years for radio waves to travel back and forth. Later on, the idea of the churten allowed faster-than-light movement of people while at the same time fitting in with Le Guin's investigation of consensual reality and the power of storytelling. I don't think anyone can argue that when Le Guin came up with the idea of the churten she was trying to predict how faster-than-light travel might actually work someday. It is a psychological, metaphorical concept, much like the ones many fantasy works employ. >If telepathy doesn't exist why is it investigated and why e.g. >psychology doesn't say it doesn't exist. I know it's quite an >extereme fenomenon and is easily neglected. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. > Sorry. I translated the title from Polish language. It is "Lathe >of heaven". Ah, I get it now -- the dreaming mind as jellyfish (medusa) being dashed against the rocks of wakefulness. I agree with you, it is striking. Le Guin is a master of metaphor. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed May 02 13:10:36 2001 Received: from ei.egroups.com (ei.egroups.com [64.211.240.237]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA09656 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 04:48:37 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-113-988631284-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Apr 2001 11:48:05 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 30 Apr 2001 11:48:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 54763 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2001 11:48:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2001 11:48:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.17) by mta2 with SMTP; 30 Apr 2001 11:48:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 04:48:00 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.13 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:48:00 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.13] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Apr 2001 11:48:00.0679 (UTC) FILETIME=[683B3370:01C0D16B] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:48:00 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Always Coming Home (especially for Diane) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 4590a52dbf3a0964a016696f4579593b Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 199 Hi there, it's been a while since I read my email, because I've been so busy, but when I read Diane's letter about her -valley-, I had to write quickly (except it's never quickly with me) The thing about Always Coming Home for me is that I first read it when I was over on the West Coast in our valley when I was fifteen... I had songs there too, and the sounds of the valley in that tape were like those of my valley... I still relate the smell of the grass and the sun of a New Zealand summer with Always Coming Home. I remember seeing an Ansell Adams photo of Sonoma County, California soon after I read it, and it had those same hummocky hills that you see on the cover of Always Coming Home, we have hills like that in Boatman's Valley, too, because it has been dredged for gold... I love that bit in the introduction to ACH where she picks up an imagined gold disk with a sun on it and imagines it coming from the gold fields and speninding some time as a wedding ring in Frisco. Having a place that is relevent to me -now-, that has such a parallel history to California, that could be very like the Valley of the Kesh, gives me this incredible sense of what was there, and what might be, it helps me feel the geographical and cultural heritage underneath the landscape, one that has mostly been forgotten. I like Kim Stanely Robinson's Pacific Coast trilogy for similar reasons, not to mention Riddley Walker. I can smell the Valley of the Kesh, and imagine the sounds, and like the children there, I feel like I know each tree and stone. Like you being tempted to pick up each feather you find, Diane, my mother collects the skeletons of leaves. And my valley has blue mountains in the distance: the Paparoa's, that remind me of the Ranges of Light (I think that's what they're called) in Stone Telling's North America >I have lived >away from "my" valley for two decades and perhaps made the same >attitude error as page 204 "My mind was not freed. It was held >inside the Valley, instead of holding the Valley inside it." I love the turns like this that Le Guin takes in her narratives... I think my favourite Le Guin quote is that one I quoted from 'a non-euclidian view of California as a cold place to be': "Utopia has been yang, one way or another, from Plato on, Utopia has been the big yang motorcycle trip: Bright, clear, strong, firm, active, aggressive, lineal, progressive, creative,expanding, advancing and hot. It is totalitarian and depends on reason as the controlling power... The Yin utopia, it would be dark, wet, obscure, weak, yielding, passive, participatory, circular, cyclical, peaceful, nurturant, retreating, contracting and cold." I think that quote really exemplifies the difference between the Condor people and the Kesh, it also shows the difference between Anarres and Urras in The Dispossessed, except that I think the relationship between those two societies is much mroe complex. As far as quotes from Always Coming Home go... one of my favourite parts is one that I can't even understand... the Kesh song 'The Willows', I just like the way it sounds, it gets stuck in my head all the time. And I love the part in the back of the book titled 'Long Names of Houses' ('perhaps they enjoyed the fact that they had plenty of time to say them!') and Le Guin's introduction 'Towards and Archeology of the Future'... 'Which is farther from us, farther out of reach. Those whose bones lie under the thistles and the dirt and the tombstones of the Past, or those who slip weightlessly among molecules, dwelling where a century passes in a day' Jenn (she dances there, she dances there, she dances where she went) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> ClubMom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get your chance to win in our $5,000 Family Vacation Sweepstakes! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ppl8ZC/TFaCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed May 02 13:11:51 2001 Received: from fl.egroups.com (fl.egroups.com [64.211.240.233]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA06975 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 07:17:35 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-114-988726513-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 May 2001 14:15:13 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 1 May 2001 14:15:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 76581 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 13:00:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 May 2001 13:00:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.121) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 May 2001 13:00:56 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.66.20]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Tue, 1 May 2001 10:59:29 +0000 Message-ID: <3AEE962B.D4B320B4@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <3.0.5.32.20010418152816.0081e400@208.2.166.100> <5.0.2.1.2.20010418233326.01eb3220@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> <5.0.2.1.2.20010425195307.01d3a140@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 11:55:40 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Malafrena Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 0f1bb773e5ea402fbf4fee2cd936ea52 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 530 Malafrena is "Janice E. Dawley" wrote: > At 11:23 PM 4/25/01 +0100, Roddy Graham wrote: > >"Malafrena" is the one I have reread more times than any other, so I > >suppose I rate it. But... > >I don't quite see how it is a turning point vis-a-vis female characters. > >Enlighten me... > > Well, now I am looking at the publishing dates of Le Guin's novels and > thinking that maybe *Very Far Away from Anywhere Else* was the turning > point. Maybe it would be better to say that the characters in UKL's fiction become more like real men and women with each successive work, and not try to pin it down to a particular point. What do I like about "Malafrena" such that I have reread it more than any other UKL book. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I first read it when I was of an age with Itale Sorde, and just starting university, and just getting into radical politics. My life has taken rather more mundane turns than Itale's since then, so I reread it to remind me of that time of potentiality. It's a historical romance, so there is that big satisfying sigh when one gets to the last page and Itale and Piera seem to have reached a mutual understanding, although I just looked at it again and I'm, as always, not sure what that mutual understanding is. 'To live free, or die'. We should all hold that slogan dear, try to live by it. But we don't, or can't, so for consolation we read stories of those who do. "Malafrena" is a fine, fine example of such a story. "Malafrena", not being a utopia, and being set here on Earth, and in the past, seems more likely than "The Dispossed". Val Malafrena could just as well be called Arcadia. Like many people, I have a longing to find a rural idyll to live in: mine is Val Malafrena. I have taken rather a long time to post this, but I took me a while to articulate my ideas about the book. Up til now, I have always just loved it, read it, put it down with a hunger satisfied, knowing it will be there again when I need it. So, apologies for slowness, and thankyous for making me think. chiz chiz rdg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Clubmom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get a free year-long subscription for Parents magazine - just for being a Mom! http://us.click.yahoo.com/.sIrMC/YKfCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed May 02 13:12:26 2001 Received: from mw.egroups.com (mw.egroups.com [208.50.144.94]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10557 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 17:05:01 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-115-988761634-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mw.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 May 2001 00:00:35 -0000 X-Sender: Meredith.Robbins@ubsw.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 2 May 2001 00:00:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 57373 invoked from network); 1 May 2001 19:57:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 May 2001 19:57:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gate.ldn.swissbank.com) (193.82.179.18) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 May 2001 19:57:11 -0000 Received: (from smap@localhost) by gate.ldn.swissbank.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24332 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 20:55:57 +0100 (BST) Received: from (twelve.ubswarburg.com [192.168.0.6]) by gate via smap (V2.0) id xma024313; Tue, 1 May 2001 20:55:54 +0100 Received: from ln4p1013pos.ldn.swissbank.com (virscan3 [192.168.0.6]) by virscan3.swissbank.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08578 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:56:24 GMT Received: from ln4p1334.ldn.swissbank.com (ln4p1334.ldn.swissbank.com [172.16.232.70]) by ln4p1013pos.ldn.swissbank.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02335 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 20:55:54 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by ln4p1334.ldn.swissbank.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6/WDR gamma evision: 1.4 $) with ESMTP id UAA16134 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 20:55:53 +0100 (BST) X-OpenMail-Hops: 1 Message-Id: Cc: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-WDR-Disclaimer: Version $Revision: 1.13 $ From: Meredith.Robbins@ubsw.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 20:55:52 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Always Coming Home (especially for Di Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by isaac.exploratorium.edu id RAA10557 X-UIDL: c7cc068fce41f5e6f8d564a9ce277ec1 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 684 <> Hi all, I've been lurking here for a while. I've been a fan of Le Guin's since I read the first three Earthsea books when I was a kid, although I'm a bit behind in keeping up the last couple of years. Anyway, that essay is one of my favourites, and I also like what she quotes from and says about Austin Tappan Wright's _Islandia_ - that was the first place I'd ever heard of that book, which is now a favourite of mine too. Is anyone else here fond of _Islandia_? I like the quasi-utopian elements in Le Guin's work a lot. I'm particularly pleased by the fact that although the Valley of the Na and Anarres, for instance, are imagined as sufficiently better than her and now (for most of us) that it can be described as 'utopian', they are still places where people can have unhappy lives - and not even grandly and romantically tragic lives, but 'regular' maladjustments and unhappinesses. This is notably unlike a lot of earlier, Yang utopias. BTW, I am wondering if anyone here happens to know anything about Le Guin's possible use of Welsh in her fictional nomenclature. It's clear that Wales and Welsh are in her awareness (mention of Aneurin and other early poets in an essay, a few Welsh or Welsh-descended characters), but I've also noted that a few of her names seem to have have fairly 'appropriate' meanings in Welsh. Hain is pronounced exactly like Welsh _hên_, which means 'old, ancient'; Sarf -> Welsh _sarff_, 'serpent' (OK, it's sort of appropriate for an evil secret police); and I think a couple of others that escape me at the moment. Also , given her obvious awareness of Tolkien, I think it's interesting that in his famous essay "English and Welsh", the example that he gives of an English phrase that appeals to him aesthetically is "cellar door", which he spells phonetically so that it is almost identical to "Selidor" ("as long ago as something-or-other and as far away as Selidor....") I think all these could be co-incidences but I'm not sure. Thoughts, anyone? Meredith Visit our website at http://www.ubswarburg.com This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version. This message is provided for informational purposes and should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any securities or related financial instruments. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 00:15:37 2001 Received: from fl.egroups.com (fl.egroups.com [64.211.240.233]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA29069 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 05:03:25 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-116-988891403-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2001 12:03:24 -0000 X-Sender: peson42@hem.passagen.se X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 3 May 2001 12:03:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 17727 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 12:03:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 May 2001 12:03:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.passagen.se) (195.163.107.10) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 May 2001 12:03:21 -0000 Received: from peson (peson.interactiveinstitute.se [195.149.141.30]) by mail1.passagen.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.22) with SMTP id for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:03:20 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <001301c0d3c9$213b5e40$1e8d95c3@interactiveinstitute.se> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-eGroups-From: "Fredrik Petersson" From: "Fredrik Petersson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:03:40 +0200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] FW: Le Guin's e-mail address? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: c858a1ca7b90941219baa3c9130ba505 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 158 Hi all. Steve from Durham, NC, contacted me asking if I knew of an e-mail address for Mrs Le Guin. I told him I didn't know of one, but apparently he kept looking... Now he tells me he's talked to a bookstore owner who in turned talked to Mrs Le Guin at a book signing. Accourding to this book owner there is "a website" in the works that should be up and running in a few works, and there is going to be an e-mail address for Mrs Le Guin on that site. That's all I know, I'm just reporting what Steve told me. BTW - has anybody read the _Tales from Earthsea_? . Fredrik --- Le Guin's World is at http://surf.to/le.guin --- e-mail us at leguinsworld@mail.com Check out The Ekumen for discussing Le Guin: http://www.ozelotfactory.com/ekumen/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Clubmom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get a free year-long subscription for Parents magazine - just for being a Mom! http://us.click.yahoo.com/.sIrMC/YKfCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 00:15:38 2001 Received: from ef.egroups.com (ef.egroups.com [64.211.240.229]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA01832 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 07:12:44 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-117-988899163-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ef.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2001 14:12:43 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 3 May 2001 14:12:41 -0000 Received: (qmail 2417 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 14:12:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 May 2001 14:12:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 May 2001 14:12:36 -0000 Received: from [208.8.55.35] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 4175161 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 03 May 2001 07:13:17 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010503071233.00836230@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001301c0d3c9$213b5e40$1e8d95c3@interactiveinstitute.se> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 07:12:33 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] FW: Le Guin's e-mail address? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 153bd764f5413cb8c5a500318b9d8fb5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 184 At 02:03 PM 5/3/01 +0200, you wrote: >Hi all. > >BTW - has anybody read the _Tales from Earthsea_? > >. Fredrik > >--- Is this a new title for the Earthsea series or is it a collection of short stories? This is the first I've heard of this title. -=Fred=- Under the winter moon, The river wind. Sharpens the rocks. - Chora - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Clubmom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get a free year-long subscription for Parents magazine - just for being a Mom! http://us.click.yahoo.com/.sIrMC/YKfCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 00:16:18 2001 Received: from ch.egroups.com (ch.egroups.com [208.50.99.226]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA04655 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 08:37:02 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-119-988904221-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ch.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2001 15:37:01 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 3 May 2001 15:37:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 10600 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 15:37:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 May 2001 15:37:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 May 2001 15:37:00 -0000 Received: from [208.32.92.65] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 4177126 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 03 May 2001 08:37:42 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010503083653.00831b90@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20010503071233.00836230@208.2.166.100> <3.0.5.32.20010503071233.00836230@208.2.166.100> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 08:36:53 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Tales from Earthsea & email Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: c4549f2ef4e1e2b2e2ef0e1449bae3cf Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 234 At 08:22 AM 5/3/01 -0800, you wrote: >Tales from Earthsea is a new collection (I bought my copy yesterday) >including two previously published stories ("Darkrose and Diamond" >and "Dragonfly"), three new stories, and a description of Earthsea. >There's also a foreward in which she discusses how she came to write >more Earthsea stuff after _Tehanu: the Last Book of Earthsea_. There >will be another Earthsea novel out in fall 2001, _The Other Wind_. Thanks for the information. I shall be watching for it. >as for her email address, if she does in fact get one, I am very >skeptical that it would ever be public. I have read several >interviews and heard her speak a few times, and she already feels >overwhelmed by correspondence (snail mail). She knows that email >would only make that worse. > >Heather Unfortunately, lack of privacy, or at least a considerably diminished privacy, is the downside of being popular or well-known. That is one reason I hesitate to contact writers, unless, of course, one has established an "official" website. -=Fred=- Under the winter moon, The river wind. Sharpens the rocks. - Chora - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Clubmom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get a free year-long subscription for Parents magazine - just for being a Mom! http://us.click.yahoo.com/.sIrMC/YKfCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 00:16:18 2001 Received: from c3.egroups.com (c3.egroups.com [208.50.99.225]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA04056 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 08:19:43 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-118-988903182-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2001 15:19:42 -0000 X-Sender: heyiya@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 3 May 2001 15:19:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 43214 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 15:19:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 May 2001 15:19:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.62) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 May 2001 15:19:20 -0000 Received: from [63.178.65.103] (sdn-ar-003orportP167.dialsprint.net [63.178.65.103]) by snipe.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02497 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 08:19:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: heyiya@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010503071233.00836230@208.2.166.100> References: <3.0.5.32.20010503071233.00836230@208.2.166.100> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: heather w MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 08:22:46 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Tales from Earthsea & email Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 355c8d794374ecdd9abf228d986ea91e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 222 Tales from Earthsea is a new collection (I bought my copy yesterday) including two previously published stories ("Darkrose and Diamond" and "Dragonfly"), three new stories, and a description of Earthsea. There's also a foreward in which she discusses how she came to write more Earthsea stuff after _Tehanu: the Last Book of Earthsea_. There will be another Earthsea novel out in fall 2001, _The Other Wind_. as for her email address, if she does in fact get one, I am very skeptical that it would ever be public. I have read several interviews and heard her speak a few times, and she already feels overwhelmed by correspondence (snail mail). She knows that email would only make that worse. Heather * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple heyiya@earthlink.net ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Clubmom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get a free year-long subscription for Parents magazine - just for being a Mom! http://us.click.yahoo.com/.sIrMC/YKfCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 00:23:31 2001 Received: from hn.egroups.com (hn.egroups.com [208.50.99.199]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA18757 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 15:19:00 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-120-989014739-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 May 2001 22:18:59 -0000 X-Sender: ghouses@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 4 May 2001 22:18:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 18651 invoked from network); 4 May 2001 22:18:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 May 2001 22:18:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web13808.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.175.18) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 May 2001 22:18:57 -0000 Message-ID: <20010504221857.67796.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.3.182.6] by web13808.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 04 May 2001 15:18:57 PDT To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010503071233.00836230@208.2.166.100> From: Glass Houses MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 15:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] FW: Le Guin's e-mail address? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 4310e872f8f76d39b715a058718b3c0f Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 615 --- Fred Runk wrote: > At 02:03 PM 5/3/01 +0200, you wrote: > >Hi all. > > > > >BTW - has anybody read the _Tales from Earthsea_? > > > >. Fredrik > > > >--- > > > Is this a new title for the Earthsea series or is it > a collection of short > stories? This is the first I've heard of this > title. It's a newly release collection of 5 Earthsea stories. This fall, _The Other Wind_ will continue where _Tehanu_ left off. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0151005613/qid%3D989015650/102-8097173-6295329 GH __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 00:24:57 2001 Received: from ho.egroups.com (ho.egroups.com [64.211.240.236]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA02046 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 22:12:54 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-121-989039556-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2001 05:12:36 -0000 X-Sender: dicooper@home.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 5 May 2001 05:12:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 10793 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 05:12:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 May 2001 05:12:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.47) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 05:12:34 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: dicooper@home.com Received: from [10.1.2.33] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2001 05:12:34 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9d0240+801c@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 24.64.223.206 From: "Dianne C." MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 05:12:32 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Always Coming Home (especially for Di Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by isaac.exploratorium.edu id WAA02046 X-UIDL: efb007ed70d8fcb80f1e40604048053d Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 700 --- In the-ekumen@y..., Meredith.Robbins@u... wrote: Yes, yin and yan. Lots of our concepts are describe with two polarities. Other polarities must exist, mustn't they? For example, male, female, transvestite, and various sexualities (sexuality being one that has the most impact on our "being", I just picked it because it's easier to describe). In "A. C. H." there is the polarity of the heyiya-if: two ends with a fuzzy place in the middle. You talk of two views of utopia: hard or soft. What if we could wrap our brains around more that two aspects of "polarity"? What if those two views of utopia and other views of utopia were able to exist in our awareness at the same time? Reality, that we live in now is sometimes utopic, and sometimes that utopia-ness is hard and sometimes soft and sometimes the others. And what you say about people still having the regular kind of maladjustments and unhappiness. . . Hey, perhaps THIS reality IS utopia NOW! What am I saying! (irony is difficult to express). But that quote has truthfulness, about the soft utopia. Yet, brought to mind is the hard utopia of Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged"--written by a woman. I'm just thinking out loud. As for the connection to Welsh, I will ask my Welsh friend. Also, the "answer" must be on "the exchange" somewhere. Another note from the wilderness: Dianne C. > < non-euclidian view of California as a cold place to be': > > "Utopia has been yang, one way or another, from Plato on, Utopia has > been > the big yang motorcycle trip: Bright, clear, strong, firm, active, > aggressive, lineal, progressive, creative,expanding, advancing and > hot. It > is totalitarian and depends on reason as the controlling power... The > Yin > utopia, it would be dark, wet, obscure, weak, yielding, passive, > participatory, circular, cyclical, peaceful, nurturant, retreating, > contracting and cold.">> > > Hi all, > > I've been lurking here for a while. I've been a fan of Le Guin's since > I read the first three Earthsea books when I was a kid, although I'm a > bit behind in keeping up the last couple of years. > > Anyway, that essay is one of my favourites, and I also like what she > quotes from and says about Austin Tappan Wright's _Islandia_ - that > was the first place I'd ever heard of that book, which is now a > favourite of mine too. Is anyone else here fond of _Islandia_? > > I like the quasi-utopian elements in Le Guin's work a lot. I'm > particularly pleased by the fact that although the Valley of the Na > and Anarres, for instance, are imagined as sufficiently better than > her and now (for most of us) that it can be described as 'utopian', > they are still places where people can have unhappy lives - and not > even grandly and romantically tragic lives, but 'regular' > maladjustments and unhappinesses. This is notably unlike a lot of > earlier, Yang utopias. > > BTW, I am wondering if anyone here happens to know anything about Le > Guin's possible use of Welsh in her fictional nomenclature. It's > clear that Wales and Welsh are in her awareness (mention of Aneurin > and other early poets in an essay, a few Welsh or Welsh- descended > characters), but I've also noted that a few of her names seem to have > have fairly 'appropriate' meanings in Welsh. Hain is pronounced > exactly like Welsh _hên_, which means 'old, ancient'; Sarf -> Welsh > _sarff_, 'serpent' (OK, it's sort of appropriate for an evil secret > police); and I think a couple of others that escape me at the moment. > Also , given her obvious awareness of Tolkien, I think it's > interesting that in his famous essay "English and Welsh", the example > that he gives of an English phrase that appeals to him aesthetically > is "cellar door", which he spells phonetically so that it is almost > identical to "Selidor" ("as long ago as something-or-other and as far > away as Selidor....") I think all these could be co- incidences but > I'm not sure. Thoughts, anyone? > > Meredith > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Clubmom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get a free year-long subscription for Parents magazine - just for being a Mom! http://us.click.yahoo.com/.sIrMC/YKfCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 00:25:47 2001 Received: from hp.egroups.com (hp.egroups.com [208.50.99.201]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA10947 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 07:05:17 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-122-989071513-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2001 14:05:13 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 5 May 2001 14:05:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 58616 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 14:05:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 May 2001 14:05:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 14:05:11 -0000 Received: from [208.32.92.233] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 4225460 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 05 May 2001 07:05:58 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010505070509.00833520@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20010504221857.67796.qmail@web13808.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20010503071233.00836230@208.2.166.100> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 07:05:09 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] FW: Le Guin's e-mail address? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 0a8913e6e626ce786e0f3898fedc08c9 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 734 At 03:18 PM 5/4/01 -0700, you wrote: >It's a newly release collection of 5 Earthsea stories. > This fall, _The Other Wind_ will continue where >_Tehanu_ left off. > >GH Thanks for the information. I shall have to watch out for it. -=Fred=- Under the winter moon, The river wind. Sharpens the rocks. - Chora - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Clubmom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get a free year-long subscription for Parents magazine - just for being a Mom! http://us.click.yahoo.com/.sIrMC/YKfCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 00:25:47 2001 Received: from jk.egroups.com (jk.egroups.com [208.50.144.83]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13637 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 09:26:50 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-123-989080006-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2001 16:26:46 -0000 X-Sender: dfabi@shrike.depaul.edu X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 5 May 2001 16:26:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 2120 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 16:26:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 May 2001 16:26:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO c9.egroups.com) (10.1.2.66) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 16:26:44 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: dfabi@shrike.depaul.edu Received: from [10.1.4.66] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2001 16:26:44 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9d19k1+r6l8@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010503083653.00831b90@208.2.166.100> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 63.48.144.106 From: "Dexter Fabi" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 16:26:41 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Tales from Earthsea book tour?? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3cc6d66c69a0f0067fa89984dbfe36ac Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 741 Finally, Tales from Earthsea is here. Does anyone know if UKLG is going on a book tour for this one? Actually, I just want to know if she's going to sign in Chicago, if she does go on tour. Also, in the dedication to The Tombs of Atuan, LG writes "To the redhead from Telluride." Anyone know who that is? -Dexter To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 00:28:15 2001 Received: from hl.egroups.com (hl.egroups.com [208.50.99.197]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA08236 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 16:06:48 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-124-989104009-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 May 2001 23:06:49 -0000 X-Sender: heyiya@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 5 May 2001 23:06:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 88147 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 23:06:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 May 2001 23:06:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.49) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 23:06:46 -0000 Received: from [63.178.68.199] (sdn-ar-004orportP269.dialsprint.net [63.178.68.199]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23453 for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 16:06:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: heyiya@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9d19k1+r6l8@eGroups.com> References: <9d19k1+r6l8@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: heather w MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 16:10:17 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Tales from Earthsea book tour?? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f923b805393cf0488e9f8a66a244896c Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 817 >Finally, Tales from Earthsea is here. Does anyone know if UKLG is >going on a book tour for this one? Actually, I just want to know if >she's going to sign in Chicago, if she does go on tour. I know she will be in Chicago for Book Expo America or whatever they now call what used to be the American Booksellers Association annual meeting. She will be signing at the convention, but no readings there or elsewhere in Chicago. Maybe the BEA or Harcourt websites have more info about when and where; I'm sure you'd have to pay something to get into the exhibit hall. this will be sometime around the weekend of June 2. >Also, in the dedication to The Tombs of Atuan, LG writes "To the >redhead from Telluride." Anyone know who that is? I think I read somewhere that that's her mother, Theodora Kroeber (possibly best known as the author of _Ishi in Two Worlds_). Heather * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple heyiya@earthlink.net ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Clubmom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get a free year-long subscription for Parents magazine - just for being a Mom! http://us.click.yahoo.com/.sIrMC/YKfCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 00:53:30 2001 Received: from c9.egroups.com (c9.egroups.com [208.50.99.230]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA01090 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 10:31:43 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-125-989515871-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 May 2001 17:31:11 -0000 X-Sender: roni_web@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 10 May 2001 17:31:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 20349 invoked from network); 10 May 2001 17:31:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 May 2001 17:31:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl.egroups.com) (10.1.10.48) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 May 2001 17:31:08 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: roni_web@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.74] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 May 2001 17:31:08 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9dej8r+u654@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 131.193.193.155 From: "Veronica" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:31:07 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Newbie from Chicago here... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: b634bbc7d383a57efabdc9aececfe37a Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1952 Hi all! I'm new to the group, and still fairly new to Ursula's work. My freshmen comp instructor highly suggested _Lathe of Heaven_ for me and it took me another 6 years for me to pick up _The Wizard of Earthsea_ and fall deeply in love with her work. On another list I am on, someone mentioned that Ursula had written an essay on abortion, perhaps back in the late 70s. Does anyone have a copy? Know how I can get a copy? TIA! Roni ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Clubmom is the first free organization dedicated to rewarding and celebrating Moms! Join today - it's free - and get a free year-long subscription for Parents magazine - just for being a Mom! http://us.click.yahoo.com/.sIrMC/YKfCAA/qvCFAA/FO3XlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 00:58:57 2001 Received: from hj.egroups.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA12699 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 08:06:33 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-126-989593563-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 May 2001 15:06:03 -0000 X-Sender: heyiya@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 11 May 2001 15:06:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 13158 invoked from network); 11 May 2001 15:05:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 May 2001 15:05:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.85) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 May 2001 15:05:31 -0000 Received: from [63.180.14.90] (sdn-ar-011orportP154.dialsprint.net [63.180.14.90]) by gull.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29415 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 08:05:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: heyiya@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9dej8r+u654@eGroups.com> References: <9dej8r+u654@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: heather w MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:09:10 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Newbie from Chicago here... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f8e7124855b9dea9d456162bdb63caa0 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2230 >On another list I am on, someone mentioned that Ursula had written an >essay on abortion, perhaps back in the late 70s. Does anyone have a >copy? Know how I can get a copy? From _Dancing at the Edge of the World_, a collection of essays and reviews by UKL: a 1978 talk given at a Planned Parenthood symposium: "Moral and Ethical Implications of Family Planning" but it's not explicitly about abortion. a 1982 talk at a National Abortion rights Action League workshop: "The Princess" which features an autobiographical "fairy tale" about her own experience with abortion before Roe. I'm pretty sure Dancing is still in print, and you could probably get it through the Chicago public library or even used at The Stars My Destination. Heather * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple heyiya@earthlink.net To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:11:07 2001 Received: from ch.egroups.com (ch.egroups.com [208.50.99.226]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA21061 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 07:55:34 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-127-989852103-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ch.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2001 14:55:04 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 14 May 2001 14:55:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 96237 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 14:53:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 May 2001 14:53:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta3 with SMTP; 14 May 2001 14:53:28 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA32328 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:53:26 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010514105846.00852100@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010418152816.0081e400@208.2.166.100> References: <3.0.5.32.20010417104439.0083fb20@pop.netmeg.net> <3.0.5.32.20010411105217.00817b50@208.2.166.100> <3.0.5.32.20010411015524.00861650@pop.netmeg.net> <9avbu8+lhrm@eGroups.com> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:58:46 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] The Problem with Magic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 0eea748f462db932e1dfbcd94fff6236 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2725 OK So I finished A Wizard of Earthsea a while ago and it's been bugging me. I Liked it a lot more than I expected to, but it still had that weird, (to me, anyway) off-putting taste of fantasy and I've been trying to put my finger on it. And the answer keeps coming back to magic. Here's why. Magic can just show up and do anything. Gotta get away real fast? Turn into a bird. Got a problem with dragons? Kill them with magic. Need a breeze? Make one with magic. It feels like lazy writing. It feels undisciplined and arbitrary, like the Boy Hero's All-Purpose Space Suit and Blaster in "Golden Age" Space Opera, or Batman's Utility Belt in the TV series. A telepathic character, on the other hand and to cite the popular alleged SF analogy to magic, won't suddenly be able to make a boat out of sticks using telepathy. Magic feels like a device that takes the place of problem-solving; a device that serves no literary purpose other than to provide a patina of wonderment at the expense of moving the story, developing the character or exploring a meaningful or stimulating point. Having said that, I find UKL's premise of magic somewhat interesting. Like ancient the Jewish writers of various Golem stories, she allows that speaking the Ancient Language -- as God did when creating the universe in the first place -- gives the speaker some shadow of the power of God to manipulate the world or invoke forces and changes. And in that light, the Wizard's academy on Earthesea can be seen as a language institute for that language where witty, ambitious students compose magical objects for visiting noblewomen, rather than amusing ditties. An interesting idea, but ultimately a dramatic dead end. Both the action and absence of Telepathy, in "Left Hand...", became a medium for the exploration of human intimacy. The ansible is contrived, as someone here pointed out, yet still only does one thing -- but functions as a symbol for the power and the impotence of the Ekumen, a tool for characters, and even a tool for the author to emphasize the loneliness of the Envoy. Stravinsky said that creativity comes from discipline. Magic, with its constantly changing applications, seems the opposite of that. What am I missing here? =================================================================== "I will have no man in my boat," said Starbuck, "who does not fear the whale." Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 f: 203 531 9748 e: vincent@steel-tango.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:11:07 2001 Received: from hh.egroups.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA23996 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:12:48 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-128-989856736-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2001 16:12:18 -0000 X-Sender: toddmountjoy@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 14 May 2001 16:12:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 67763 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 16:11:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 May 2001 16:11:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web10104.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.130.54) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 May 2001 16:11:47 -0000 Message-ID: <20010514161147.1671.qmail@web10104.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [143.235.14.216] by web10104.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:11:47 PDT To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010514105846.00852100@pop.netmeg.net> From: Todd Mountjoy MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Problem with Magic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: c4b05b2220af9aa17c576a8264a974dd Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2747 I can understand what you are saying, yet there is the element of "Balance" which Le Guin takes and uses to keep her "fantasy" in check. Notice that there were dangers in using magic to change into another creature that made using "shape-changing" for escape an option with a cost... In addition, Science Fiction takes what we know to be probable and expands upon those premises... Fantasy (on the other hand) allows an author to create a universe that may or may not work within the "laws" of our belief system. Still, a good author uses this imaginary local and creates "laws of that universe" that both aid and bind those inhabitants much as our own universe binds/frees us... Ultimately there is no such thing as a perfect world (either in "real life" or in a fantasy setting). Don't give up on the Earthsea novels... by the time you arrive at her latest compilation of Earthsea Tales you will find that there are elements of her universe that keeps fantasy in check... Todd __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:12:58 2001 Received: from ei.egroups.com (ei.egroups.com [64.211.240.237]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA09232 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 13:19:12 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-129-989871550-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2001 20:19:12 -0000 X-Sender: dsalo@softhome.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 14 May 2001 20:19:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 52323 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 20:17:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 May 2001 20:17:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hi.egroups.com) (10.1.10.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 May 2001 20:17:16 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: dsalo@softhome.net Received: from [10.1.10.109] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2001 20:17:15 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9dpefh+gd6r@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010514105846.00852100@pop.netmeg.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 144.92.164.197 From: dsalo@softhome.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 20:16:49 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: The Problem with Magic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 72194e2a7e0137b77cd4cc3ba816d037 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2797 --- In the-ekumen@y..., Vin Urbanowski wrote: > OK So I finished A Wizard of Earthsea a while ago and it's been bugging me. > I Liked it a lot more than I expected to, but it still had that weird, (to > me, anyway) off-putting taste of fantasy and I've been trying to put my > finger on it. And the answer keeps coming back to magic. [...] > Stravinsky said that creativity comes from discipline. Magic, with its > constantly changing applications, seems the opposite of that. What am I > missing here? I admit prejudice in my response to this, because I am not put off by fantasy as such. A lot of fantasy, to be sure, is badly written, badly plotted, and generally pointless, but that is not a problem with fantasy per se and is also true of science fiction or any other genre. Magic, Vin complains, can do too many things and can solve too many problems. This he characterizes as "sloppy writing". But that magic which is overt in Earthsea is implicit in any story. Every author has complete control over both his or her characters and their world, and can make anything happen to them, in defiance of logic or probability. Is your character starving on the streets? Well, perhaps a rich uncle dies and she comes into his inheritance. Or perhaps she finds a map to a hidden treasure. Or perhaps she successfully robs a bank. Or a stranger takes pity on her and takes her in. All of these are "magic" -- they don't arise from the force of circumstances, because there are no inherent circumstantial forces in a written story. The author makes up whatever solution there is. The magic that can pluck a rich uncle out of nowhere, or make the police fail to catch the bank-robber, is not different in quality from the magic that the character could use to conjure up her dinner or a pot of gold. It is simply covert, hidden, embarrassed of itself; it tries to cover its nakedness with a ragged garment of pseudo-probability and fake likelihood. Fantasy, on the other hand, is not ashamed of itself and parades the naked power of the author before the audience. The author does not have to engage in the pretense that the story he or she tells is something that did happen, will happen, or could happen in some facsimile of the real world. The author is free, in fact, to design and fabricate a world out of whole cloth, and create its postulates, theorems, and corollaries. For this reason I call fantasy the purest form of story-telling; it need owe nothing to the conventional assumptions of its listeners. Science fiction is a hybrid form; at once it pretends to extrapolate from the accepted "real world" to a possible future or alternate reality, and yet only does so to allow the author the occasional chance to exhibit that naked power in glimpses, in a sort of literary strip-tease. For all that, and perhaps because of that, the best fantasy has deeper roots in the real world than science fiction or most other genres. It doesn't have to build a world of steel and spaceships to justify engaging in story-telling; it can engage the world of common human experience, the world of earth and sky, sea and stars, sun and moon, imbuing them with a significance lost, forgotten, or not even considered in most other forms of fiction. When we hurtle through space Nearly As Fast As Light, the stars may simply become subway stops on a journey to noplace in particular. But in a fantasy world, the stars may be gods, they may sing to us, they may tell the future; the author isn't locked into a vision of the universe patched together in the '20s and '30s by the likes of E.E. Smith. (This is not to say that all fantasy writers are non-derivative; most of them are, and in the worst possible ways. But science fiction labors under a host of inherited commonplaces like the ray-gun, the spaceship, the clone, hyperspace, telepathy, teleportation, and the sub-ether, which were invented in the early days of sf and have been mindlessly copied ever since.) Vin is right, I think, to say that an author who grasps this power must use it wisely and not wantonly, under much the same restrictions as those which Le Guin requires of her wizards; the consequences of a loss of equilibrium by the author involve the failure of the book. Imagine, for instance, an all-powerful wizard as main character of a book: "Kilhellen looked around. The darkness seethed with the army of ghouls, efreets, hobgoblins and yet darker, nameless things which Varhavnir had sent against him. His lip curled with full knowledge of the uselessness of Varhavnir's efforts. Waiting until the advancing ghouls were within eyeshot, Kilhellen muttered the five potent words of the sacred Grimoire of Drybek. With a flash of violet flame, the entire army of darkness vanished back to the deeps of the Nether Abyss. Kilhellen turned to his companions, smiling. 'How about a cup of tea...'" After ten pages of this kind of thing, I imagine even the most patient reader would grow weary. But Le Guin does not fall prey to this temptation; her wizards are powerful but fallible, and more than capable of meeting their match. When Ged is confronted with his shadow, is he capable of simply speaking a Word of Power and thus surmounting his difficulties? Of course not, and we don't expect him to. Even Supermen have to have their Kryptonite, and Ged is no superman. So instead we have a long journey, in which we find out something about the uses and dangers of magic in Earthsea, and come to the conclusion that the use of magic -- on the part of either the characters or the author -- is less simple than one might suppose. Vin's objection, I think, boils down to a gut reaction to the improbability of the whole affair. A tiny wizard, faced with a dragon the size of a castle, and he controls him with a single word! Absurd. But then we have to step back and wonder where our ideas about the probable outcomes of wizard-actions and dragon-encounters come from. Not, clearly, from the tale itself, where -- given the rules by which Earthsea works -- the encounter is both possible and feasible. But how can it come from our experience of a real world in which, in our common experience at least, neither wizards nor dragons exist? We might object that according to some fairy-tale lore which we dimly remember, the outcome Le Guin describes is massively unlikely, so unlikely that we feel she's abusing her authorial power by allowing it. But this is to deny Le Guin the right to set up the rules of her own world, forcing her to live by some set of canonical fantasy-genre rules comparable to the common stock of science fiction rules. Vin feels comfortable with such rules, and is happy with telepathy as long as it's not telekinesis or clairvoyance or Doc McCoy's heal-all serum, good for what ails ya, all things which science fiction tells us are distinct products of the pseudoscientific imagination. And indeed, if you want to write science fiction, you are wise to obey those rules lest your readers reject you as writing something unrecognizable as the familiar old sf. But fantasy writers aren't bound by such rules, which means they have the ability to actually invent something new, or reuse old cliches in unprecedented ways. As Le Guin did in A Wizard of Earthsea, and has continued to do, only now finding new uses for cliches she herself invented. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:12:58 2001 Received: from hm.egroups.com (hm.egroups.com [208.50.99.198]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA09343 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 13:20:52 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-130-989871620-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2001 20:20:22 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 14 May 2001 20:20:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 21397 invoked from network); 14 May 2001 20:19:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 May 2001 20:19:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mq.egroups.com) (10.1.1.36) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 May 2001 20:19:27 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: jdawley@bellatlantic.net Received: from [10.1.10.122] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2001 20:19:27 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9dpekc+p2ad@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010514105846.00852100@pop.netmeg.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 207.140.66.216 From: "Janice Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 20:19:24 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: The Problem with Magic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by isaac.exploratorium.edu id NAA09343 X-UIDL: 43e00fc712e491d223df2b4fc705a9e7 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2798 On Mon May 14, 2001at 10:58 am, Vin Urbanowski wrote: > Stravinsky said that creativity comes from discipline. Magic, > with its constantly changing applications, seems the opposite of > that. What am I missing here? In Le Guin's fantasy, as in almost all fantasy, the working of magic takes a toll on the practitioner. How much of a toll is determined partly by the particular magic being invoked, partly by the depth of the wizard's resources. You may complain that this is a false economy, too easily manipulated by the author, but I would argue that as far as economies go, it is at least as plausible as the one we experience in our own world, which is based on money. Ged could be seen in these terms as a young man born into a rich family (he was born with his gift, he did not earn it) who sees that he can use his money to impress and influence people, perhaps even alter his society on a massive scale. He's got so much of it –- why not? The argument that Le Guin is making in *A Wizard of Earthsea* is not about magic per se, it is about power and its effect on the person wielding it. As she frames it, the question is not how Ged will save his world from darkness with his special gift; it is primarily how he will learn to know himself and develop a sense of proportion and balance. Early in the book, he unwisely attempts to bring someone back from the dead and ends up ripping his own "shade" from himself. His final confrontation with and embrace of this shade is a radical recognition of his own power's darkness, with all the allusions to Taoism and Jungian theory that that implies. True wisdom lies in seeing this balance between light and dark rather than in trying to dispel the darkness. If Ged hadn't come to this understanding, he could easily have become the twisted magician of *The Farthest Shore*, who brought so much "wrongness" (as John Clute would call it) into the world by breaking the rule of death. Or Dr. Haber of *The Lathe of Heaven*. If Le Guin used magic in a way that truly shortchanged the story, I would agree with you. Lots of fantasy schlock does. But she doesn't. Ged may be able to call up a magewind, but no magewind will ever save Ged from himself. That is what the story is really about. That, I would venture to say, is what you are missing. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:34:38 2001 Received: from hh.egroups.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA09147 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 19:24:15 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-131-990152624-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2001 02:23:44 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 18 May 2001 02:23:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 22773 invoked from network); 18 May 2001 02:23:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2001 02:23:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.123) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 May 2001 02:23:42 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.66.33]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Fri, 18 May 2001 03:25:43 +0100 Message-ID: <3B048732.C20E46F1@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <3.0.5.32.20010417104439.0083fb20@pop.netmeg.net> <3.0.5.32.20010411105217.00817b50@208.2.166.100> <3.0.5.32.20010411015524.00861650@pop.netmeg.net> <9avbu8+lhrm@eGroups.com> <3.0.5.32.20010514105846.00852100@pop.netmeg.net> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 03:21:39 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Problem with Magic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 0ccfa7fbb9ad24f8750aa02e591efc79 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3625 Vin Urbanowski wrote: > OK So I finished A Wizard of Earthsea a while ago and it's been bugging me. > I Liked it a lot more than I expected to, but it still had that weird, (to > me, anyway) off-putting taste of fantasy and I've been trying to put my > finger on it. And the answer keeps coming back to magic. > > Here's why. Magic can just show up and do anything. I have been having this debate with my Mum for at least twenty years, with no sign of a resolution. She says "How can you read a book when none of it is realistic?". I think that people too readily forget that _all_ fiction is made up by the writers. The "realistic" novel has developed over a couple of centuries, so that the conventions it uses have become rather invisible. Whatever the novel, whatever the setting, the plot and plot devices have been made up by the author to tell a story, to entertain. Anything else the writer achieves is second to this. I see that I have more or less repeated what dsalo@softhome.net is saying, but now I want to disagree where he says > Vin is right, I think, to say that an author who grasps this power > must use it wisely and not wantonly, under much the same restrictions > as those which Le Guin requires of her wizards; the consequences of a > loss of equilibrium by the author involve the failure of the book. I'm sorry, but that looks to me like a rather weak argument by analogy (doesn't Shevek muse on the dangers of the analogic mode somewhere in "The Dispossessed"?). Now, to pick a nit... Janice Dawley wrote: > Ged could be > seen in these terms as a young man born into a rich family (he was > born with his gift, he did not earn it) who sees that he can use his > money to impress and influence people, perhaps even alter his society > on a massive scale > This seems a bit off the cuff. Remember, at first Ged hardly knows he has his talent. He doesn't decide to go out and win friends and influence people. It is Ogien who chooses to take him as an apprentice, for his own good. Back to Vin: > Stravinsky said that creativity comes from discipline. Magic, with its > constantly changing applications, seems the opposite of that. What am I > missing here? > I think you have a little mental shorthand rule: magic equals escapism equals sloppy writing. I suggest you read 'The Monsters and the Critics', by J R R Tolkein. regards to you all chiz chiz rdg PS If this gets as badly mangled as my last posting, then I apologise grovellingly. If not, then I stroll insouciantly off into the sunset. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:34:38 2001 Received: from jj.egroups.com (jj.egroups.com [208.50.144.82]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA10748 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 20:49:19 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-132-990157758-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2001 03:49:18 -0000 X-Sender: awkword@prodigy.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 18 May 2001 03:49:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 95139 invoked from network); 18 May 2001 03:49:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 May 2001 03:49:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ei.egroups.com) (10.1.2.114) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 May 2001 03:49:11 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: awkword@prodigy.net Received: from [10.1.2.33] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2001 03:49:10 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9e263j+3mbc@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 63.253.198.21 From: "Eric Silvernale" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 03:49:07 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] The new kid Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3e06810b92364f6132aa8e787462a8b0 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3629 Hi, I just found this group and I'm glad to join. I love the discussion on magic! By way of introduction, I will relate my one and only Le Guin meeting. I was living in Seattle at the time and heard she was going to be at the NW Book convention down by the piers. So I grabbed my copy of Buffalo Gals and Other Animal Presences and rushed down to stand in line. When I reached her table I was trembling. Such is my reaction to meeting my favorite author! I handed her the book and apologized for not having her new book... yet... but this book and especially the story Buffalo Gals Won't You Come Out Tonight was my all time favorite. She smiled that peaceful smile of hers and said that it was one of her favorites as well. That the story wrote itself. That she usually had do work hard and struggle to get the story just right but this story told itself. She then signed it "with a yap from Coyote." I've been reading Le Guin ever since my youth minister recommended Lathe of Heaven. She introduced me to Taoism and after reading the Tao de Ching I knew I had arrived home. Anyway, thanks for reading! To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:35:37 2001 Received: from hn.egroups.com (hn.egroups.com [208.50.99.199]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA18356 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 05:12:21 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-133-990187911-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2001 12:11:51 -0000 X-Sender: iwr77@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 18 May 2001 12:11:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 23107 invoked from network); 18 May 2001 12:11:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 May 2001 12:11:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.154) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 May 2001 12:11:49 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 18 May 2001 05:11:49 -0700 Received: from 146.186.159.216 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:11:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [146.186.159.216] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 May 2001 12:11:49.0432 (UTC) FILETIME=[B7451B80:01C0DF93] From: "Ian W. Riddell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:11:49 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Ged Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 637db69fe39f1054a352fdaac5733b07 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3655 OK Folk's have been having this really great discussion about Magic and sloppy writing and all that stuff but I have a _really_ important question to ask. How do you pronounce "Ged"? I know I read something somewhere in LeGuin's essays about this, but I can't find it and I'm two books down on my re-read of Earthsea and I just need to know. Is the G hard (get) or soft (jet)? Enquiring minds want to know blessings widdy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:36:19 2001 Received: from hk.egroups.com (n4.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.54]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA19706 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 06:33:58 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-134-990192808-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2001 13:33:28 -0000 X-Sender: jhyde@christschool.org X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 18 May 2001 13:33:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 12114 invoked from network); 18 May 2001 13:33:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 May 2001 13:33:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.christschool.org) (208.131.129.57) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 May 2001 13:33:26 -0000 Received: from christschool.org (trilluser@www.christschool.org [208.131.129.58]) by mail.christschool.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA01848 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 08:36:39 -0400 Message-ID: <3B05254C.E811DBBB@christschool.org> Organization: Christ School St. Dunstan's Library X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Jane Hyde MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:36:12 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Ged Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ddb8a7e4cdccdbf2138a686143d57c1e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3669 hard "G" -- she says somewhere she was surprised people didn't know! -- Jane Hyde, Librarian St. Dunstan Library Christ School Arden, NC 28704 jhyde@christschool.org To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:36:19 2001 Received: from cj.egroups.com (cj.egroups.com [208.50.144.68]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA20691 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 07:15:24 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-136-990195324-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2001 14:15:24 -0000 X-Sender: iwr77@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 18 May 2001 14:15:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 13200 invoked from network); 18 May 2001 14:15:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 May 2001 14:15:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.191) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 May 2001 14:15:15 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 18 May 2001 07:15:15 -0700 Received: from 146.186.159.216 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 18 May 2001 14:15:15 GMT X-Originating-IP: [146.186.159.216] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 May 2001 14:15:15.0916 (UTC) FILETIME=[F5E0E0C0:01C0DFA4] From: "Ian W. Riddell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:15:15 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Ged Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 54d7a8315762a2e163aec51ca50db2de Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3680 Of course. Now that I know it makes perfect sense. I'm not sure why I didn't figure that out on my own or why I don't ever remember. thanks widdy PS. I would recommend taking a break after reading any Le Guin and before reading something else - I'm working through "Winter Queen" by Joan D. Vinge and, while I'm finding it interesting conceptually, I find the writing to be, well, flaccid. Verbose and imprecise after reading Le Guin's spare, deep prose. >From: heather w >Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Ged >Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 07:01:02 -0800 > > >hard "G" -- she says somewhere she was surprised people didn't know! > >And when my friend Jed asked her about the pronounciation she added >(with a bit of amused exasperation) that if it were pronounced "jed," >she would have spelled it that way... > >Heather > > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >heather whipple >heyiya@earthlink.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:36:19 2001 Received: from mu.egroups.com (mu.egroups.com [64.211.240.238]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA20098 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 06:57:20 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-135-990194239-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2001 13:57:20 -0000 X-Sender: heyiya@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 18 May 2001 13:57:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 95388 invoked from network); 18 May 2001 13:57:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2001 13:57:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.49) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 May 2001 13:57:17 -0000 Received: from [38.28.129.111] (ip111.portland11.or.pub-ip.psi.net [38.28.129.111]) by scaup.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16408 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 06:57:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: heyiya@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B05254C.E811DBBB@christschool.org> References: <3B05254C.E811DBBB@christschool.org> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: heather w MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 07:01:02 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Ged Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ac50f446c4a345dfbc2774560a83a1f8 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3676 >hard "G" -- she says somewhere she was surprised people didn't know! And when my friend Jed asked her about the pronounciation she added (with a bit of amused exasperation) that if it were pronounced "jed," she would have spelled it that way... Heather * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple heyiya@earthlink.net To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:36:19 2001 Received: from ej.egroups.com (ej.egroups.com [64.211.240.230]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23310 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 08:50:12 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-137-990201007-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2001 15:50:11 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@impop.bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 18 May 2001 15:50:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 79303 invoked from network); 18 May 2001 15:49:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 May 2001 15:49:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4ve.mailsrvcs.net) (206.46.170.25) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 May 2001 15:49:17 -0000 Received: from zion.mailbox.bellatlantic.net (adsl-64-222-80-26.burlvt.adsl.bellatlantic.net [64.222.80.26]) by smtp4ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA30562154 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 16:09:50 GMT Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010518113915.00a20950@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Sender: jdawley@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: X-eGroups-From: "Janice E. Dawley" From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:48:34 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Ged Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f54d0ac8af14c023c02003586ec141e6 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3693 At 10:15 AM 5/18/01 -0400, Ian W. Riddell wrote, re: the name "Ged": >Of course. Now that I know it makes perfect sense. I'm not sure why I didn't >figure that out on my own or why I don't ever remember. It is confusing because it violates romance language pronunciation rules. In French, Italian, etc. a "g" is pronounced as hard in front of the vowels "a", "o" and "u", but soft in front of "e" and "i". Anglo-Saxon, though, always pronounces "g" as hard (as in "get"). Modern English is an unholy mix of romance and Germanic languages, so it is impossible to know which pronunciation rule Le Guin is using in her invented name "Ged" without being told. Given that she has studied French so extensively, it's easy to think that she meant it to be pronounced with French rules. Good thing we have her definitive statement! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:36:57 2001 Received: from fg.egroups.com (fg.egroups.com [208.50.144.70]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA26220 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 10:01:45 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-138-990205303-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by fg.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 May 2001 17:01:44 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 18 May 2001 17:01:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 82089 invoked from network); 18 May 2001 17:01:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 May 2001 17:01:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.121) by mta2 with SMTP; 18 May 2001 17:01:41 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([194.117.137.211]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Fri, 18 May 2001 17:03:42 +0000 Message-ID: <3B05550E.92D87DE5@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <3.0.5.32.20010417104439.0083fb20@pop.netmeg.net> <3.0.5.32.20010411105217.00817b50@208.2.166.100> <3.0.5.32.20010411015524.00861650@pop.netmeg.net> <9avbu8+lhrm@eGroups.com> <3.0.5.32.20010514105846.00852100@pop.netmeg.net> <3B048732.C20E46F1@virgin.net> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 17:59:59 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Problem with Magic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f9b83a0adce163b8f5684ebb0e2e5a9f Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3719 Roddy Graham wrote: > It is Ogien who chooses to take him as an apprentice, for his own good. > For Ogien read Ogion. chiz chiz rdg To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 01:52:39 2001 Received: from mk.egroups.com (mk.egroups.com [208.50.144.76]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA02384 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 20:33:57 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-139-990588834-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 May 2001 03:33:55 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 23 May 2001 03:33:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 71126 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 03:33:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 May 2001 03:33:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-1.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta3 with SMTP; 23 May 2001 03:33:00 -0000 Received: from [207.229.172.200] (207-229-142-177.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.177]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E040260FE for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 22:32:58 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:32:51 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Earthsea miniseries in development! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 1cf0d1fa235753e511e5d74629a0d06b Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4560 From Cinescape Online at: http://www.cinescape.com/indexnew.html >Sci Fi's 'Earthsea' >The Sci Fi cable channel has signed a deal for a TV miniseries based on >the first three Earthsea novels; A Wizard of Earthsea, Tales of Earthsea >and Tombs of Atuan; by Ursula Le Guin. > >According to Variety, Lawrence Bender (The Mexican) and Kevin Brown >(Roswell) are on board to the produce the project. Currently, a writer is >being sought to adapt the three books. > >Set in a fantasy world along the lines of Tolkein's Lord of the Rings, the >books tell the story of a boy named Sparrowhawk who is a wizard's >apprentice. Once the boy learns his true name, he begins his transition into >becoming a man even as he must battle evil that may be, in some way, >connected to him. -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:17:15 2001 Received: from hk.egroups.com (n4.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.54]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA00663 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 21:41:13 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-140-991111243-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 May 2001 04:40:43 -0000 X-Sender: judyldubois@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 29 May 2001 04:40:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 63059 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 04:40:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 May 2001 04:40:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mw.egroups.com) (208.50.144.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 29 May 2001 04:40:42 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: judyldubois@aol.com Received: from [10.1.2.240] by mw.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 May 2001 04:40:42 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9ev984+28dp@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 195.93.64.153 From: judyldubois@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 04:40:36 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] SF / Fantasy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6a5c7b891698035064d50696822cf9cc Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5788 Hello, I'm new and this is my first ever discussion group. I just discovered that you existed and I have been reading the archives and am so amazed that there are all those people out there reading my favorite author and saying such intelligent things about her. I've tried to read everything she's written and I have to say that during the years I spent in a small town in Cameroon, Ursula helped me stay sane. I just wanted to put in my two bits about the SF/ Fantasy poll. It seems so very un-Le Guin. I mean she has said quite a bit about how she feels about being put in categories. Which, after all, were invented by publishers so they could market the books as merchandise. I thought Tehanu was brilliant because of course the publishers were going to consider it children's literature like the other Earthsea books and what was it about? Dying and growing old, with an elderly woman protagonist. I also wanted to say to those who are leery of fantasy that they should read Le Guin's "Why are Americans Afraid of Dragons?" It's in Language of the Night and there's no better, or more passionate defense of fantasy. I live in France and the French are even more afraid of Dragons than Americans and whenever I meet someone who actually enjoys fantasy, I know we're going to be good friends. I once gave a French translation of The Hobbit to a 10 year old neighbor boy. He's now 30, and the other day he told me that the book had changed his life. One last question. Why so much fuss about Harry Potter when Le Guin did it first and so much better? Judy To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:17:15 2001 Received: from ei.egroups.com (ei.egroups.com [64.211.240.237]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA00965 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 22:04:54 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-141-991112687-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 May 2001 05:04:47 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 29 May 2001 05:04:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 15249 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 05:04:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 May 2001 05:04:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-1.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta2 with SMTP; 29 May 2001 05:04:46 -0000 Received: from [207.229.172.194] (207-229-142-140.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.140]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD0B60E2 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 00:04:44 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9ev984+28dp@eGroups.com> References: <9ev984+28dp@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 00:04:37 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Welcome Judy/Terry Pratchett & Earthsea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 056d305c45bdc6d44aa7219491e17bda Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5792 >Hello, I'm new and this is my first ever discussion group. Hi Judy, welcome to The Ekumen! Lovely to have you with us...it sounds like you've had quite an interesting life, geographically at least. And thanks for putting your two francs in on the SF/Fantasy question. >One last question. Why so much fuss about Harry Potter when Le Guin >did it first and so much better? Ah, that's something UKL herself has wondered aloud about. Interestingly, now that I'm re-reading the Earthsea books I'm noticing that Ged& Co. have have also had a very discernable influence on the brilliantly-funny Terry Pratchett, of whom I'm also a big fan. Many of Pratchett's Discworld novels are set in an around Unseen University--yet another school for wizards. And throughout the books, I now realize that Pratchett has very closely followed Le Guin's model in terms of the different characters of wizards and witches--their respective personalities and the way they practice magic, and how that relates to gender. Perhaps most tellingly, in Equal Rites (Pratchett's feminist-leaning novel about Discworld's first female wizard), there's an incident where the witch Granny Weatherwax is teaching her young charge, Esk, how to "borrow" the minds of animals (temporarily inhabiting their bodies). Granny has to rescue Esk after she makes the mistake of staying too long in the mind of an eagle, and forgets how return to her own body, having "gone eagle"--much as Ogion has to help Ged after he spends too long in hawk-shape and forgets how to become human again. Coincidence?...perhaps... Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:28:25 2001 Received: from fl.egroups.com (fl.egroups.com [64.211.240.233]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA17840 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:03:25 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-142-991263804-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 May 2001 23:03:24 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 30 May 2001 23:03:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 29391 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 23:03:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 May 2001 23:03:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.125) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 May 2001 23:03:20 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.143.13]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Thu, 31 May 2001 00:05:14 +0100 Message-ID: <3B157BC1.CFA3117C@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <9ev984+28dp@eGroups.com> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 00:01:22 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] SF / Fantasy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 7ac23a46ac93e9ddf488a05f3379a622 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6526 judyldubois@aol.com wrote: > I just wanted to put in my two bits about the SF/ Fantasy poll. It > seems so very un-Le Guin. Perhaps it reflects the fact that our discussion group is hosted by yahoo, and hence shaped by yahoo to some extent. > > > I also wanted to say to those who are leery of fantasy that they > should read Le Guin's "Why are Americans Afraid of Dragons?" It's in > Language of the Night and there's no better, or more passionate > defense of fantasy. No no no no no. 'The Monsters and the Critics', Tolkein. > > > One last question. Why so much fuss about Harry Potter when Le Guin > did it first and so much better? I don't think there is any overlap of book type between Earthsea and Potter: whatever the Potter books do, Earthsea did something different. If anyone has spare bandwidth, I will gladly list, at some considerable length, the differences. Is there a net-accessible way to see Le Guin's comments on Potter vs Earthsea? Dave Awl wrote: > Interestingly, now that I'm re-reading the Earthsea books I'm > noticing that Ged& Co. have have also had a very discernable > influence on the brilliantly-funny Terry Pratchett, of whom I'm also > a big fan. Many of Pratchett's Discworld novels are set in an around > Unseen University--yet another school for wizards. And throughout the > books, I now realize that Pratchett has very closely followed Le > Guin's model in terms of the different characters of wizards and > witches--their respective personalities and the way they practice > magic, and how that relates to gender. Perhaps most tellingly, in > Equal Rites (Pratchett's feminist-leaning novel about Discworld's > first female wizard), there's an incident where the witch Granny > Weatherwax is teaching her young charge, Esk, how to "borrow" the > minds of animals (temporarily inhabiting their bodies). Granny has to > rescue Esk after she makes the mistake of staying too long in the > mind of an eagle, and forgets how return to her own body, having > "gone eagle"--much as Ogion has to help Ged after he spends too long > in hawk-shape and forgets how to become human again. > > I'm told that Pratchett often contributes to discussion groups about his work. Why doesn't some member of this group go and ask if he got any of his ideas for 'Equal Rites' from Le Guin? chiz chiz rdg To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:29:20 2001 Received: from hj.egroups.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA25981 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 19:28:18 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-143-991276068-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 31 May 2001 02:27:48 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 31 May 2001 02:27:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 50887 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 02:27:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 31 May 2001 02:27:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-1.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 May 2001 02:27:46 -0000 Received: from [207.229.172.235] (207-229-142-149.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.149]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0877761F3 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 21:27:44 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B157BC1.CFA3117C@virgin.net> References: <9ev984+28dp@eGroups.com> <3B157BC1.CFA3117C@virgin.net> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 21:27:28 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] SF / Fantasy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 23d97142fa194a168519e2554127efa0 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6556 Roddy Graham wrote: >Is there a net-accessible way to see Le Guin's comments on Potter vs >Earthsea? From the Portland Trailblazer at: http://www.bookmagazine.com/issue12/trailblazer.shtml There's a box about 2/3 down the page with the following... >This year's phenomenon of publishing, J.K >Rowling's Harry Potter books, both pleases and >puzzles Ursula Le Guin. > >"I'm glad kids are reading," she says. "But when >grownups sit around saying that there's never >been anything like Harry Potter, well, gee, I had >a wizard school in 1968 (in A Wizard of >Earthsea). These people simply haven't been >reading this stuff. They've been sneering at >fantasy until the huge success of a fantasy made >them read it. > >"And then they say there's nothing like this, and >it breaks my heart. When I think of all the great >fantasies around. And [J.K.] Rowling has >certainly read me; it's obvious she's read me." > >To Le Guin, J.R.R. Tolkien, with The Lord of >the Rings, remains the model to follow. "The >top," she says unequivocally. "Anyone who >wants to write fantasy has to have read him." >--Ellen Emry Heltzel Roddy also wrote: >I'm told that Pratchett often contributes to discussion groups about his >work. Why doesn't some member of this group go and ask if he got any of his >ideas for 'Equal Rites' from Le Guin? Last I checked the Pratchett Web site, word was that T.P. *used* to participate on his message board (I think it's alt.fan.pratchett or something like that, I'm not very Usenet-savvy) but is no longer able to because now that Americans are finally starting to discover him in huge numbers, trying to talk to fans online is too overwhelming. Gol'-durned Americans.... Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:40:34 2001 Received: from c3.egroups.com (c3.egroups.com [208.50.99.225]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23409 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:11:49 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-145-991408275-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2001 15:11:18 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 1 Jun 2001 15:11:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 3053 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 15:11:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2001 15:11:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Jun 2001 15:11:04 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA19776 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:11:02 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010601105614.0085a9d0@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9dpefh+gd6r@eGroups.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20010514105846.00852100@pop.netmeg.net> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:56:14 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] The Two Sins of Fantasy & SF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 090a479bde1cc698ff21631f41bb9973 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6950 At 08:16 PM 5/14/01 -0000, dsalo@softhome.net wrote: > >... Every author has >complete control over both his or her characters and their world, and >can make anything happen to them, in defiance of logic or probability. >Is your character starving on the streets? Well, perhaps a rich uncle >dies and she comes into his inheritance. ... The author makes >up whatever solution there is. Good point -- and interesting to me, in that I always hate stories where that sort of thing happens. The end of Jane Eyre, which is what I think you're referring to, is one of the most flagrant examples of this kind of sloppiness. (and it's just one of several significant problems for me with Jane -- though I loved the Broadway production currently running for its emotional arcs and especially Marla Schaeffel's performance as Jane, both of which were enough to override the irritating ridiculousness of the story. See it if you can!) Yet the story and others like it have been beloved for generations. Why? Maybe my problem is not with magic per se, but with deus ex machina -- and maybe the deus is in the eye of the beholder. >The magic that can pluck a rich uncle out of nowhere, or make the >police fail to catch the bank-robber, is not different in quality >from the magic that the character could use to >conjure up her dinner or a pot of gold. It is simply covert, hidden, >embarrassed of itself; it tries to cover its nakedness with a ragged >garment of pseudo-probability and fake likelihood. > Fantasy, on the other hand, is not ashamed of itself and parades >the naked power of the author before the audience. The author does not >have to engage in the pretense that the story he or she tells is >something that did happen, will happen, or could happen in some >facsimile of the real world. This is, I suspect, the key to the pro-fantasy argument, and beautiful enough in concept that I'll overlook the hyperbole. You're saying that a competent fantasty author probes the limits of a reader's tolerance for reality abstraction -- and/or the author's own ability to induce a compelling world in the imagination of the reader. But come on. In addition to the point about deus ex, I have to say that the *author's* freedom to invent and alter reality is different from a character's. I seem to have a fuzzy recollection of classical philosophy demonstrating that you can't observe a thing that you're part of -- the philosophers were noting that we cannot prove the existance of God because we're part of what God made. And in physics, too, you have to be outside a system to measure it. And look at math -- we have god-like powers of observation and manipulation over a two dimensional world, but in our four dimensional world, we only have power over three dimensions while someone in a five-dimensional world could easily manipulate time and awareness and participation in our three dimensional world. Godhood flows downhill, not up. >The author is free, in fact, to design >and fabricate a world out of whole cloth, and create its postulates, >theorems, and corollaries. All authors do this -- it's what we pay them for. And how is this fantasy author's power different from the author's power you described a couple of paragraphs ago? And what is the cloth? I would say that some authors choose to build worlds from whole cloth woven of our world, and some choose a cloth woven from our most reality-liberated dreams. And perhaps this is truly the essence of the difference between (S)F and Fantasy -- the mind-cloth the author chooses. >For this reason I call fantasy the purest >form of story-telling; it need owe nothing to the conventional >assumptions of its listeners. Cannot accept. All storytelling owes something to the assumptions of the listeners. It is, I see now, a matter of *what* the conventional assumptions are in the audience, not *if* there are conventions -- fantasy readers subscribe to conventional fantasy conventions. What would pure story-telling be, anyway? If you remember Weiner's work on signal & noise, there's a point at which unpredictability in the signal may as well be noise. You've got to agree on conventions -- the receiver has to know something about what to expect -- or it's just noise. Here's an experiment: listen to any music by composer Olivier Messiaen. Very and Catholic and very mystical, his storytelling is so pure it doesn't even use words. Doesn't even use musical conventions other than instruments that musicians of our world know how to play. Self-consistent and obviously, sincerely, deeply inspired by Christian mythology, it is unlistenable -- until you do, infact, release all conventional expectations, embrace his language and listen real hard. It is almost impossible. > For all that, and perhaps because of that, the best fantasy has >deeper roots in the real world than science fiction or most other >genres. It doesn't have to build a world of steel and spaceships to >justify engaging in story-telling; it can engage the world of common >human experience, the world of earth and sky, sea and stars, sun and >moon, imbuing them with a significance lost, forgotten, or not even >considered in most other forms of fiction. When we hurtle through >space Nearly As Fast As Light, the stars may simply become subway stops >on a journey to noplace in particular. But in a fantasy world, the >stars may be gods, they may sing to us, they may tell the future; the >author isn't locked into a vision of the universe patched together in >the '20s and '30s by the likes of E.E. Smith. "Dune" is hardly about steel and spaceships. Please don't bring up space opera (or the Herbert brat's prequels), and I will limit my fantasy comments to LeGuin, whose work we all respect. And as for what the stars may be, the bottom line is writing. If the stars are subway stops, they'd better go somewhere interesting and for a good reason. Similarly, if the stars sing to us, it had better be a beautiful song that moves the story along. Which brings us to the Second Sin of Bad fantasy -- novelty for its own sake. So now that we're talking about it, I realize that each of us sees the worst of his or her own favorite genre in the other's preference. In answering this post, I have come to see that there are two Sins, and the bad examples of both genres exhibit them in abundance. I wonder if all genre fiction suffers from the same two sins: Sin 1: Deus ex machina. In both SF and fantasy and in certain classical literature, the genre provides unreasonable means of resolving difficulties. I think magic is an ever-lurking and greater danger in Fantasy, but bad SF and other fiction does it too. Sin 2: Novelty for its own sake. Sorry, but the section at the wizard's school was often boring to me. When Sparrowhawk was using magic to defeat the invaders, there was a good story -- it was interesting in itself while possibly a metaphor for exploring that critical moment of growing up when things not yet understood, start to fall into place for you. The school scene went on far too long. SF is famously guilty of this sin as well, though I don't see it in UKL's SF. > Vin's objection, I think, boils down to a gut reaction to the >improbability of the whole affair. A tiny wizard, faced with a dragon >the size of a castle, and he controls him with a single word! Absurd. My problem with the dragon scene was not that Ged killed so many dragonlings and then outsmarted the parent, but that the same tool -- magic -- is used to patch leaky boats. Maybe my problem with A Wizard of Earthsea is that it is mostly expositional, and by nature, exposition is about novelty (though constructive). UKL, for all my grousing about the boring academy section, at least presented magic as an effect of knowing the Ancient Language (presumably the language that God used to call the universe into being, as in Western mythology). I'm not sure I would have gotten that without that section, especially the part of Ged's course of study in which he goes to the tower. This underlying concept -- that language is the fundamental instrument of creation -- is a natural one for a writer to explore, isn't it? Perhaps UKL is, consciously or not, writing about writing when she writes about Ged. Almost makes the conversation at the beginning of this post seem silly. >We might >object that according to some fairy-tale lore which we dimly remember, >the outcome Le Guin describes is massively unlikely, so unlikely that >we feel she's abusing her authorial power by allowing it. But this is >to deny Le Guin the right to set up the rules of her own world, forcing >her to live by some set of canonical fantasy-genre rules comparable to >the common stock of science fiction rules. Vin feels comfortable with >such rules, and is happy with telepathy as long as it's not telekinesis >or clairvoyance or Doc McCoy's heal-all serum, good for what ails ya, >all things which science fiction tells us are distinct products of the >pseudoscientific imagination. And indeed, if you want to write science >fiction, you are wise to obey those rules lest your readers reject you >as writing something unrecognizable as the familiar old sf. But fantasy >writers aren't bound by such rules, which means they have the ability >to actually invent something new, or reuse old cliches in unprecedented >ways. As Le Guin did in A Wizard of Earthsea, and has continued to do, >only now finding new uses for cliches she herself invented. > If this is your final point, then I thank you for the opportunity to wrestle with it and see something I didn't see before. But you haven't still sold me. So today, I'm walking up to Colleseum Books to get the second book, to test my theory that the first was an exposition. What is the second one, anyway? ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:40:34 2001 Received: from hi.egroups.com (n2.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.52]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23405 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:11:45 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-144-991408275-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2001 15:11:15 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 1 Jun 2001 15:11:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 22677 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 15:11:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2001 15:11:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Jun 2001 15:11:04 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA19779 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:11:03 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010601111658.0085e700@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9ev984+28dp@eGroups.com> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:16:58 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] SF / Fantasy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f38fd53dbe5fc2b48dbf710bc4f0c06a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6949 At 04:40 AM 5/29/01 -0000, you wrote: >Hello, I'm new and this is my first ever discussion group. I just >discovered that you existed and I have been reading the archives and >am so amazed that there are all those people out there reading my >favorite author and saying such intelligent things about her. I've >tried to read everything she's written and I have to say that during >the years I spent in a small town in Cameroon, Ursula helped me stay >sane. So what UKL did you read in Cameroon, and what were you doing there? >I just wanted to put in my two bits about the SF/ Fantasy poll. It >seems so very un-Le Guin. I mean she has said quite a bit about how >she feels about being put in categories. Which, after all, were >invented by publishers so they could market the books as >merchandise. I want to agree with this, because it is a gentle and civilized thought. But if UKL claims to not want to be put in categories, she's either being disingenuous or referring to herself, as distinct from her work. And in the end, she's as interested in selling books as her publishers -- and we are interested in her selling books because we want to read them! She chose to load up Earthsea with fantasy conventions -- she created a fantasy novel. She's very aware of the differences in genres, effective and comfortable though she may be in moving between them. I wonder if her power as a writer comes from not making a personal exclusive commitment to any particular genre. A cross-fertilized imagination... BTW, does anyone have any info on relative sales (ie relative number of readers) of her books? From this, we might learn something. After all, who else is so admired in SF, fantasy, mainstream and acadaemia? For what it's worth, here's an anecdotal datum -- I find that I can easily share Left Hand with my mainstream fiction reading friends, but they will not read Earthsea. Which says to me that while fantasy allegedly enjoys more freedom of imagination, and should therefore be broader, it is in fact a more specialized, dare I say "limited" genre... >I thought Tehanu was brilliant because of course the >publishers were going to consider it children's literature like the >other Earthsea books and what was it about? Dying and growing old, >with an elderly woman protagonist. OK, it sounds great -- so I'm going to make the commitment and get the collection instead of just getting the cheapest pocket edition of the second Earthsea book... (This group has actually made my life better by turning me on to things I wouldn't have otherwise found. Thank you, David and everybody) > >One last question. Why so much fuss about Harry Potter when Le Guin >did it first and so much better? > See your own paragraph 2. Better, more clearly-targeted marketing. Better cover art that attracted nostalgic adults while promising delight to kids. Perhaps better timing, too. v ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:41:33 2001 Received: from hk.egroups.com (n4.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.54]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29626 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:52:37 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-146-991417926-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2001 17:52:07 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@impop.bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 1 Jun 2001 17:52:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 60217 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 17:51:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Jun 2001 17:51:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp6ve.mailsrvcs.net) (206.46.170.27) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Jun 2001 17:51:57 -0000 Received: from zion.mailbox.bellatlantic.net (adsl-64-222-82-200.burlvt.adsl.bellatlantic.net [64.222.82.200]) by smtp6ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA27338924 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:57:17 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010601130041.02362c80@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Sender: jdawley@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010601111658.0085e700@pop.netmeg.net> References: <9ev984+28dp@eGroups.com> X-eGroups-From: "Janice E. Dawley" From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:52:58 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] SF / Fantasy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 98f0d72af76e30bbd1948e56c07eefa5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6995 At 11:16 AM 6/1/01 -0400, Vin Urbanowski wrote: >BTW, does anyone have any info on relative sales (ie relative number of >readers) of her books? From this, we might learn something. After all, who >else is so admired in SF, fantasy, mainstream and acadaemia? > >For what it's worth, here's an anecdotal datum -- I find that I can easily >share Left Hand with my mainstream fiction reading friends, but they will >not read Earthsea. Which says to me that while fantasy allegedly enjoys >more freedom of imagination, and should therefore be broader, it is in fact >a more specialized, dare I say "limited" genre... I'm not sure where to get total sales of UKL's books, but a quick check at Amazon.com gives these current sales rankings: Tales from Earthsea: 1,006 A Wizard of Earthsea: 1,247 The Tombs of Atuan: 1,748 The Farthest Shore: 2,812 The Left Hand of Darkness: 4,643 The Dispossessed: 4,821 Tehanu: 5,588 The Lathe of Heaven: 19,819 The Telling: 35,469 Always Coming Home: 40,075 Except for *Tales from Earthsea* and *The Telling*, which are only available in hardcover at the moment, all these figures are for paperback sales. They tally with my impression that Le Guin's fantasy is much more popular generally than SF. Maybe this is a temporary boost in sales caused by the Harry Potter mania, but I don't think so. As a genre, fantasy has a wider readership than does science fiction. The reasons for this are many and, to my mind, have nothing to do with the quality of the books. 1) Fantasy is a direct descendant of fairy tale and myth, types of storytelling that are unguessably ancient and take on more or less "universal" themes; science fiction is roughly 100 years old. 2) Readers of science fiction are stereotyped as being pencil-necked, glasses-wearing male geeks, a point which may relate to point 1, but also relates to the "steel and spaceships" that are assumed to be the main subjects of SF. Etc. As you pointed out, the literary technique of deus ex machina is employed in all genres of literature. Ged's ability to repair a boat with magic is hardly important enough to be counted as deus ex machina; the important things are indeed hard for Ged to achieve, despite his magic. When you get to the end of *Tehanu*, we can talk about deus ex machina. ;-) In any case, it seems to me that you are so irritated with the "two sins" that you spoke of that you are trying to paint an entire genre with their brush. =Science fiction, in general, is just as guilty of those two sins as is fantasy.= Yet you have read science fiction books that you enjoy. To me, this proves the uselessness of making generalizations about entire genres of books. If a dismissive generalization means that a person will be turned off of books that they would enjoy, it is a pity. And it is avoidable. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:42:58 2001 Received: from hh.egroups.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA07108 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:29:36 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-147-991427346-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2001 20:29:06 -0000 X-Sender: RachelBOsb@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 1 Jun 2001 20:29:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 64995 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 20:29:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2001 20:29:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m10.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.165) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Jun 2001 20:29:02 -0000 Received: from RachelBOsb@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id r.ff.726e24b (4213) for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 From: RachelBOsb@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:28:54 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] SF / Fantasy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 7d754d5276da4ba1d68d06e5868c647b Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7041 In a message dated 6/1/01 8:23:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, CMWidor@steel-tango.com writes: > One last question. Why so much fuss about Harry Potter when Le Guin > >did it first and so much better? > > > > See your own paragraph 2. Better, more clearly-targeted marketing. Better > cover art that attracted nostalgic adults while promising delight to kids. > Perhaps better timing, too. I just wanted to comment that I have two boys who were about 12 and nine when Harry Potter first came out. We had done lots of reading both aloud to themselves, they'd read Earthsea, Narnia, Lloyd Alexander etc. and liked them all a lot but I never saw them as into a book as Harry Potter and it certainly was not media influenced as we were reading it at the very start and didn't know any one else who was. They just liked it a lot. I don't think it's fair to say LeGuin did "it" better, because I think the "it" that Rowlings did was simply writing books for today's kids that gave them a lot of pleasure. Interestingly I recently commented to my 12 year old that although I liked the Harry Potter books I could never see rereading them although I've read the Narnia books to them at least three times and he replied, "yeah, well the Harry Potter books are basically mysteries." Maybe they're not fantasies at all!! Anyway I know this is a digression but I just don't feel theirs even much comparison between the two series, LeGuin's is obviously more literary and has more to it, Rowlings (in the eyes of many kids) just a lot of fun to read. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:43:40 2001 Received: from mo.egroups.com (mo.egroups.com [208.50.144.78]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA11868 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:42:53 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-148-991431774-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mo.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Jun 2001 21:42:54 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 1 Jun 2001 21:42:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 40324 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 21:42:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 1 Jun 2001 21:42:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Jun 2001 21:42:48 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA27573 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 17:42:47 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010601174842.00860100@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010601130041.02362c80@mailbox.bellatlantic.ne t> References: <3.0.5.32.20010601111658.0085e700@pop.netmeg.net> <9ev984+28dp@eGroups.com> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 17:48:42 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] SF / Fantasy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 9184a853be2da305d9f2dc217e8e1b8b Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7088 THanks, Janice, for the research and the insightful post! At 01:52 PM 6/1/01 -0400, you wrote: >I'm not sure where to get total sales of UKL's books, but a quick check at >Amazon.com gives these current sales rankings: > >Tales from Earthsea: 1,006 >A Wizard of Earthsea: 1,247 >The Tombs of Atuan: 1,748 >The Farthest Shore: 2,812 >The Left Hand of Darkness: 4,643 >The Dispossessed: 4,821 >Tehanu: 5,588 >The Lathe of Heaven: 19,819 >The Telling: 35,469 >Always Coming Home: 40,075 > >Except for *Tales from Earthsea* and *The Telling*, which are only >available in hardcover at the moment, all these figures are for paperback >sales. They tally with my impression that Le Guin's fantasy is much more >popular generally than SF. Wow they sure do! >As you pointed out, the literary technique of deus ex machina is employed >in all genres of literature. Ged's ability to repair a boat with magic is >hardly important enough to be counted as deus ex machina; the important >things are indeed hard for Ged to achieve, despite his magic. When you get >to the end of *Tehanu*, we can talk about deus ex machina. ;-) THanks for the hint without the spoiler -- I think I would have enjoyed the conclusion of A Wizard more if I hadn't already known what the shadow was. >In any case, >it seems to me that you are so irritated with the "two sins" that you spoke >of that you are trying to paint an entire genre with their brush. Maybe I've got to write differently. I am not globally irritated -- I am intrigued. Intrigued by the differences in people and the recurrent phenomenon of differences actually being commonalities. In my admittedly dense Sins post, I was noting that the "Sins" I identified are committed by both genres -- people seem to knock fantasy and SF for *exactly the same reasons*! This is strange and beautiful and dangerous might even help one to understand how marriages and politics and markets work (or don't). It would be absurd to argue superiority of one genre over the other, and I'm not! That's what's so wonderful about the UKL cannon and this group -- while we may have genre preferences and some crits, we are reading and appreciating the same works! =Science >fiction, in general, is just as guilty of those two sins as is >fantasy.= Yet you have read science fiction books that you enjoy. To me, >this proves the uselessness of making generalizations about entire genres >of books. If a dismissive generalization means that a person will be turned >off of books that they would enjoy, it is a pity. And it is avoidable. > Because bigotry and prejudice are forms of generalization, it does not follow that generalization is a form of bigotry or prejudice. Generalizations are necessary for understanding. Not all generalizations are dismissive. "Generalization" and "Genre" share a root. A genre can be seen as a set of generalizations. I'm interested in what they are, how we share them, and what our choices may say about us. The diversity of preference and opinion is one of the things that's so great about being human! So much is revealed when you discover general truths and begin to note exceptions, such as brilliance and beauty. I cannot agree more deeply with your statement that those who let generalizations turn into prejudice, and so deprive themselves of wonderful experiences, make a sad mistake. All the best! vin >----- >Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT >http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ >Listening to: Coldplay -- Parachutes >"...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; >the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and >servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > =================================================================== "I will have no man in my boat," said Starbuck, "who does not fear the whale." Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:51:23 2001 Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [208.50.144.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA21041 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 05:58:50 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-149-991659530-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2001 12:58:50 -0000 X-Sender: zzdoggo@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 4 Jun 2001 12:58:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 99271 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2001 12:58:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Jun 2001 12:58:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ej.egroups.com) (10.1.10.49) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Jun 2001 12:58:48 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: zzdoggo@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.95] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2001 12:58:48 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9fg0m7+etef@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 157.178.1.101 From: "Jeff" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 12:58:47 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Welcome Judy/Terry Pratchett & Earthsea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: fdce07566d1b2d0d1330e507cd128ba9 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7425 --- In the-ekumen@y..., Dave Awl wrote: > in > Equal Rites (Pratchett's feminist-leaning novel about Discworld's > first female wizard), there's an incident where the witch Granny > Weatherwax is teaching her young charge, Esk, how to "borrow" the > minds of animals (temporarily inhabiting their bodies). Well, I think we can trace the idea back a little further than _A Wizard of Earthsea_. :-) T.H. White used some very similar devices in "The Sword in the Stone_ (1938), in which Merlin transforms the boy Arthur into various animals as part of his education. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0399225021/qid=991656220/sr=1- 6/ref=sc_b_6/102-6001195-9627302 -- and I think White got the idea from the Mabinogion (c. 13th century). >From "Taliesin" -- " '... said Caridwen, "it was Gwion Bach who robbed me.' And she went forth after him, running. And he saw her, and changed himself into a hare and fled. But she changed herself into a greyhound and turned him. And he ran towards a river, and became a fish. And she in the form of an otter-bitch chased him under the water, until he was fain to turn himself into a bird of the air. She, as a hawk, followed him and gave him no rest in the sky. And just as she was about to stoop upon him, and he was in fear of death, he espied a heap of winnowed wheat on the floor of a barn, and he dropped among the wheat, and turned himself into one of the grains." http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/mabinogion/taliesin.htm > Granny has to > rescue Esk after she makes the mistake of staying too long in the > mind of an eagle, and forgets how return to her own body, having > "gone eagle"--much as Ogion has to help Ged after he spends too > long in hawk-shape and forgets how to become human again. It may be that Pratchett is echoing LeGuin in this particularity, but it seems such a poetically obvious idea I won't be surprised to discover that it also dates back to the Bards. . To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:52:30 2001 Received: from ef.egroups.com (ef.egroups.com [64.211.240.229]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23355 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 08:07:23 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-150-991667238-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ef.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2001 15:07:18 -0000 X-Sender: awkword@prodigy.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 4 Jun 2001 15:07:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 18372 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2001 15:07:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jun 2001 15:07:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ch.egroups.com) (10.1.10.51) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Jun 2001 15:07:16 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: awkword@prodigy.net Received: from [10.1.10.101] by ch.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2001 15:07:16 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9fg86v+3afv@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 209.254.169.251 From: "Eric Silvernale" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:07:11 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: SF / Fantasy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by isaac.exploratorium.edu id IAA23355 X-UIDL: ebb274d2e566865d9b631049e116a027 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7456 --- In the-ekumen@y..., RachelBOsb@a... wrote: he replied, "yeah, well the Harry Potter books are basically mysteries." Maybe > they're not fantasies at all!! Anyway I know this is a digression but I just > don't feel theirs even much comparison between the two series, LeGuin's is > obviously more literary and has more to it, Rowlings (in the eyes of many > kids) just a lot of fun to read. Thank you, RachelBOsb for sharing your child's intuition about Harry Potter. Now that I think about HP I see that he is so correct. The magic in HP is an aside to the plot. Take out the magic and you have kids in England going to a private school, dealing with school politics and adults, and solving puzzles aka Alfred Hitchcock and the Three Investigators. If I remember correctly (and it's been awhile since I've read the book ) Le Guin brings this up in the Language of The Night. (From Elfland to Poughkeepsie.) I tried Le Guin's "dirty trick" on HP with amazing success. (replace a few words with more mundane words and you've changed it from fantasy to non-fantasy.) Le Guin writes: "The book from which I first quoted is not fantasy, for all its equipment of heroes and wizards. If it was fantasy, I couldn't have pulled that dirty trick on it by changing four words. You can't clip Pegasus' wings that easily – not if he has wings." There are passages of HP where this is not possible. You would damage the text too much to change it into non-fantasy, but for the most part, in fact, almost all of the book, can be easily manipulated this way. The opposite is true for Earthsea. I recommend this essay to anyone comparing Earthsea with Harry Potter. PS. This does not in anyway detract from Harry Potter as a good read. Anything that gets people excited about reading is worth gold. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:52:30 2001 Received: from c3.egroups.com (c3.egroups.com [208.50.99.225]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23468 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 08:11:35 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-151-991667465-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2001 15:11:05 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 4 Jun 2001 15:11:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 27798 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2001 15:11:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jun 2001 15:11:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Jun 2001 15:11:02 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA26699 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:11:00 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010604111700.008775e0@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9fg0m7+etef@eGroups.com> References: X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 11:17:00 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Fantasy essay on Salon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: e8b481966207c0cb079aba08cf423dab Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7458 For more on the nature of fantasy, see the interesting essay on Tolkien, "The Book of the Century" featured in Salon. Offers some great perspective on some of the Fantasy genre issues we've been discussing: http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2001/06/04/tolkien/index.html best to all v =================================================================== "I will have no man in my boat," said Starbuck, "who does not fear the whale." Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:53:16 2001 Received: from fk.egroups.com (fk.egroups.com [64.211.240.232]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA24546 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 08:52:20 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-152-991669853-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2001 15:52:15 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 4 Jun 2001 15:50:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 33711 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2001 15:50:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jun 2001 15:50:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Jun 2001 15:50:51 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA01336 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:50:47 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010604115645.00832900@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9fg0m7+etef@eGroups.com> References: X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 11:56:45 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Welcome Judy/Terry Pratchett & Earthsea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3eb7b9b5b8dc7ed4bbe25a48678b92da Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7467 At 12:58 PM 6/4/01 -0000, you wrote: >--- In the-ekumen@y..., Dave Awl wrote: > >> in >> Equal Rites (Pratchett's feminist-leaning novel about Discworld's >> first female wizard), there's an incident where the witch Granny >> Weatherwax is teaching her young charge, Esk, how to "borrow" the >> minds of animals (temporarily inhabiting their bodies). > >Well, I think we can trace the idea back a little further than >_A Wizard of Earthsea_. :-) > >T.H. White used some very similar devices in "The Sword in the >Stone_ (1938), in which Merlin transforms the boy Arthur into >various animals as part of his education. >-- and I think White got the idea from the Mabinogion >(c. 13th century). > >It may be that Pratchett is echoing LeGuin in this particularity, >but it seems such a poetically obvious idea I won't be surprised to >discover that it also dates back to the Bards. > Ovid? Fourteen books, from the ancient greek oral tradition (are these the folks you refer to as "the Bards"?), of transformations between gods and animals and plants, and even dragon teeth transforming into people, from the ancient Greek oral tradition. Usually, people are metamprphosed into plants or animals or natural features as some sort of punishment. But there is at least one story of a god, Achelous, who, unashamed to have been defeated by so noble a fighter as hercules, describes the battle in which he fights first as a man, then a snake and finally as a bull... http://members.nbci.com/book_archive/00/rom/ovid/indx.html To make the links work, right click and select Open in New Window. I'm not sure where the story I outlined above is found. Slow reading because it's a translation of an epic, but worth it! ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:55:12 2001 Received: from hl.egroups.com (hl.egroups.com [208.50.99.197]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA14080 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:46:23 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-153-991691152-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2001 21:45:53 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 4 Jun 2001 21:45:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 8327 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2001 21:39:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Jun 2001 21:39:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-2.enteract.com) (207.229.143.4) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 Jun 2001 21:39:38 -0000 Received: from [207.229.172.192] (207-229-172-192.d.enteract.com [207.229.172.192]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2B161B0 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:39:37 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9fg0m7+etef@eGroups.com> References: <9fg0m7+etef@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:39:21 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Welcome Judy/Terry Pratchett & Earthsea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6f24bd73b70ef9d34205ee984fa75b5a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7554 >--- In the-ekumen@y..., Dave Awl wrote: > >> in >> Equal Rites (Pratchett's feminist-leaning novel about Discworld's >> first female wizard), there's an incident where the witch Granny >> Weatherwax is teaching her young charge, Esk, how to "borrow" the >> minds of animals (temporarily inhabiting their bodies). > >Well, I think we can trace the idea back a little further than >_A Wizard of Earthsea_. :-) Whoa, whoa whoa. That paragraph was just set-up. I was *not* suggesting that the mere idea of taking on animal forms was invented by Le Guin. I was only referring to the "particular" situation you refer to further down. (Yes, of course I've read The Once and Future King. And the Mabinogion. And for that matter, the Irish myths of Taliesin and Tuan, among other Celtic shape-changers. And Ovid's Metamorphoses, too--so I'm reasonably well-versed in the literature of shape-changing. Sorry if I sound defensive, it's just a bit much to be lectured to about all of one's favorite books as if one had never read them.) > > Granny has to >> rescue Esk after she makes the mistake of staying too long in the >> mind of an eagle, and forgets how return to her own body, having >> "gone eagle"--much as Ogion has to help Ged after he spends too >> long in hawk-shape and forgets how to become human again. > >It may be that Pratchett is echoing LeGuin in this particularity, >but it seems such a poetically obvious idea I won't be surprised to >discover that it also dates back to the Bards. Again, it is only this "particularity" in which I'm suggesting Pratchett has echoed Le Guin and it's not just a particularity, it's a pair of very similar incidents in the stories. Read them side by side and I think you'll see what I mean. Both involve: 1) A young and less-experienced wizard/witch 2) who takes on the shape of a bird 3) and stays in the shape of that bird too long, forgetting how to regain human form, and 4) is found by his/her magical mentor, who must help them become human again, and 5) both explain at some length the concept that if you remain in an animal form too long, you are in danger of getting "stuck" that way I'm not accusing Pratchett of plagiarism here...merely of taking inspiration, or influence, or maybe even making a tip of the pen. He's clearly told the story in his own way and put his own stamp on it and it was only by having read the two books in close proximity that I made the connection at all. But again, I think if one reads the relevant parts of "Rites of Passage" and "Wizard of Earthsea" comparatively, one will see the similarity of the incidents. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:55:12 2001 Received: from hh.egroups.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA15042 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 15:04:56 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-154-991692266-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jun 2001 22:04:26 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 4 Jun 2001 22:04:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 93104 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2001 22:03:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Jun 2001 22:03:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-1.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 Jun 2001 22:03:49 -0000 Received: from [207.229.172.192] (207-229-142-189.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.189]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C763262A9 for ; Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:03:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <9fg0m7+etef@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:03:39 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Welcome Judy/Terry Pratchett & Earthsea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 1a91199ddfe830de009b6c0affdbd91d Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7556 >But again, I think if one reads >the relevant parts of "Rites of Passage" and "Wizard of Earthsea" >comparatively, one will see the similarity of the incidents. Oops, I meant "Equal Rites" not "Rites of Passage." Forgive my Freudian Jason Behr slip. ; ) Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:59:42 2001 Received: from fl.egroups.com (fl.egroups.com [64.211.240.233]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA08797 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 08:15:17 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-155-991754061-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jun 2001 15:15:12 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 5 Jun 2001 15:14:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 41557 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2001 15:14:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2001 15:14:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Jun 2001 15:14:15 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA21933 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:14:11 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010605112015.0086b370@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <9fg0m7+etef@eGroups.com> <9fg0m7+etef@eGroups.com> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 11:20:15 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Welcome Judy/Terry Pratchett & Earthsea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3f7090252a326e0f2108218c04b69100 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7677 At 04:39 PM 6/4/01 -0500, you wrote: (Yes, of course I've read The Once and Future >King. And the Mabinogion. And for that matter, the Irish myths of >Taliesin and Tuan, among other Celtic shape-changers. And Ovid's >Metamorphoses, too--so I'm reasonably well-versed in the literature >of shape-changing. Sorry if I sound defensive, it's just a bit much >to be lectured to about all of one's favorite books as if one had >never read them.) As one who has a tendency to lecture, and who occasionally feels defensive and hates it, I offer my apology. YOu are obviously a very literate individual; I was perhaps overly eager to share info about one of my favorites, which led me to exploit your post. Again, I'm sorry. Meanwhile, not to invite a lecture :) but I've not heard of Taliesen and Tuan. Who are they? Were do we see them in literatlure today? And why, do you think, did Wright give Taliesen's name to his school/estate? =================================================================== "I will have no man in my boat," said Starbuck, "who does not fear the whale." Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com =================================================================== To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:59:43 2001 Received: from ch.egroups.com (ch.egroups.com [208.50.99.226]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA11243 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:20:44 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-156-991758014-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ch.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jun 2001 16:20:14 -0000 X-Sender: zzdoggo@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 5 Jun 2001 16:20:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 40974 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2001 16:19:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2001 16:19:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hm.egroups.com) (10.1.10.45) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jun 2001 16:19:39 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: zzdoggo@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.110] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jun 2001 16:19:38 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9fj0qq+52rn@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 157.178.1.101 From: "Jeff" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 16:19:38 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Shapechanging (was) Re: Welcome Judy/Terry Pratchett & Earthsea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ed9bf0899e29d31cd50a3a883f88be53 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7698 --- In the-ekumen@y..., Dave Awl wrote: [Jeff] > > Well, I think we can trace the idea back a little further than > >_A Wizard of Earthsea_. :-) > Whoa, whoa whoa. That paragraph was just set-up. I was *not* > suggesting that the mere idea of taking on animal forms was > invented by Le Guin. > I'm reasonably well-versed in the literature > of shape-changing. Sorry! Didn't mean to imply that *you* weren't familiar with this -- just wanted to mention it for the benefit of whatever readers might not be. :-) . To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 02:59:43 2001 Received: from hi.egroups.com (n2.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.52]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA12037 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:35:55 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-157-991758925-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jun 2001 16:35:25 -0000 X-Sender: zzdoggo@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 5 Jun 2001 16:35:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 60470 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2001 16:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2001 16:34:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hh.egroups.com) (10.1.10.40) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jun 2001 16:34:16 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: zzdoggo@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.127] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jun 2001 16:34:16 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9fj1m5+6qm6@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010605112015.0086b370@pop.netmeg.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 157.178.1.101 From: "Jeff" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 16:34:13 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Welcome Judy/Terry Pratchett & Earthsea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 545adabd0a4026d6be1b5259ca877b87 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7709 --- In the-ekumen@y..., Vin Urbanowski wrote: > but I've not heard of Taliesen and > Tuan. Who are they? Were do we see them in literatlure today? A couple of quick sites on Taliesin -- I'm sure we can find more if we look. :-) http://www.britannia.com/wales/lit/lit1.html http://members.nbci.com/rhia3/taliesin.html http://www.contemplator.com/folk4/talisn.html (And I think I've heard the name Tuan, but no, I'm not familiar with it either. Dave?) > And why, do you think, did Wright give Taliesen's name to his > school/estate? The name means literally "Shining Brow", and the original Taliesin was built on the "brow" of a hill. (But I'm sure that was just an excuse for Wright to use a cool name :-) ) . To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 03:00:31 2001 Received: from hn.egroups.com (hn.egroups.com [208.50.99.199]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA12322 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:41:48 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-158-991759278-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jun 2001 16:41:19 -0000 X-Sender: zzdoggo@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 5 Jun 2001 16:41:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 4432 invoked from network); 5 Jun 2001 16:40:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Jun 2001 16:40:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hp.egroups.com) (10.1.2.220) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Jun 2001 16:40:07 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: zzdoggo@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.10.125] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jun 2001 16:40:06 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9fj212+c4jf@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010604115645.00832900@pop.netmeg.net> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 157.178.1.101 From: "Jeff" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 16:40:02 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Shapechanging (was) Re: Welcome Judy/Terry Pratch Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: e438dad18892051ed9fc43fd128bdfd8 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7710 --- In the-ekumen@y..., Vin Urbanowski wrote: > Ovid? Thanks! I for one am embarrassed I didn't think of this and appreciate the reminder. :-) -- anybody want to venture a guess as to how far back we CAN really trace this motif in literature? I don't recall it in any of the pre-Classical Middle Eastern lit offhand. . To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 03:02:43 2001 Received: from fk.egroups.com (fk.egroups.com [64.211.240.232]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA07708 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 17:09:32 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-159-991786172-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Jun 2001 00:09:32 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 00:09:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 26990 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 00:09:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 00:09:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-1.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 00:09:30 -0000 Received: from [207.229.172.88] (207-229-142-182.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.182]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9315F92 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:09:28 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 19:08:41 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Welcome Judy/Terry Pratchett & Earthsea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 9fd8d1b1c18a88a722eb5e446f2404c0 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7831 Vin wrote: >As one who has a tendency to lecture, and who occasionally feels defensive >and hates it, I offer my apology. Vin and Jeff, No need to apologize, I realize your contributions were intended helpfully. And I hereby take back my use of the word "lecture"--I actually like lectures, and I think the sharing of information is an important part of this (or any) list and I would hate to squelch that. So to everyone, feel free to lecture away and share what you know. And I'll try to be a little less defensive and crusty in the future. Jeff wrote: >(And I think I've heard the name Tuan, but no, I'm not familiar with >it either. Dave?) I first came across the story of Tuan Mac Carell in T.W. Rolleston's classic survey of Celtic Mythology (the edition I bought in the 80s, from Bracken Books - London, is titled simply _Celtic Myths and Legends._) I suspect there have been many different editions of it over the years and it's probably fairly easy to find in libraries. It's a nice overview of the major cycles of Irish (and to some extent Welsh) myth as well as miscellaneous other Celtic legends and stories. (Rolleston was a fairly prominent Celtic scholar and poet, part of the culture of the Irish literary renaissance with Yeats, A.E., Lady Gregory et. al.) According to Rolleston, Tuan's story is found in the famous "Book of the Dun Cow" (circa 1100 A.D.) Tuan's story belongs to what's called the "mythological" cycle of Irish mythology, or "cycle of the invasions," which tells of the different successive peoples or races inhabiting Ireland prior to the Celts--the Partholanians, the Fomorians, the Firbolgs, the Tuatha de Danaan, etc. Tuan mac Carrell is encountered at the beginning of the story as an elderly Ulster man. It is gradually revealed that he is actually the son of the brother of Partholan, the mythological first inhabitant of Ireland. Tuan relates to his listeners, a group of monks, that he has been in Ireland since ancient times, and has changed shape and form each time a new group of people settled in Ireland. When Partholan's people die out, of a great pestilence, Tuan alone survives, and wanders for 22 years, until he falls into old age and decrepitude. Then one night he falls asleep and changes into a great stag, "young and glad of heart." This coincides with the arrival of the Nemedians in Ireland, who begin as handful of settlers and swell to a population of 8060 until they too all mysteriously die out. Tuan again does the "old age and decrepitude" thing, and then repeats his magical transformation, this time into a wild boar--which coincides with the arrival of Semion, from whom are descended the Firbolgs "and two other tribes" who "persisted into historical times." Eventually Tuan makes with the shape-changing again, and becomes a "great eagle of the sea," just in time for the arrival of the "People of Dana" (Tuatha de Danaan). These "gods and false gods" have their heyday in Ireland until the Milesians (sons of Miled), the supposed precursors of the Irish race, show up and conquer the People of Dana. After a while, Tuan finds himself about to undergo another transformation, so he fasts for nine days, falls asleep and changes into a salmon. He frisks along for awhile, enjoying being a fish and avoiding the snares of fishermen, until he is finally caught by one and brought to the wife of Carrell, chief of the country. The apparently rather famished woman swallows the Tuan-salmon whole, and he passes into her womb, from which he is born again as Tuan, son of Carell. But, in the manner of wily magical Celtic bards (like Taliesin), he retains the memories of his previous incarnations, and all his various transformations and the stages of Irish history, which he passes on to the Irish monks. Rolleston says the story "points to the doctrine of the transmigration of the soul, which...haunted the imagination of the Celt." I think what I love about this story is the idea of the poet or storyteller as a kind of shape-changing embodiment of the culture and the times, what my Western Civ professors would have called the "zeitgeist" or spirit of the age. As new cultures emerge, the poets (almost unavoidably and involuntarily) change their form to relate to and speak to those cultures, but there's a throughline of memory and consciousness that connects them all, going back to antiquity. So the collective poet-consciousness, or bardic spirit, morphs from stag to boar to eagle to salmon as the times demand, with the goal of continuing to tell the old stories in the new forms and languages of the times. That's my take on it, anyway. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 03:02:43 2001 Received: from hi.egroups.com (n2.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.52]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA09105 for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 17:45:14 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-160-991788283-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Jun 2001 00:44:43 -0000 X-Sender: RachelBOsb@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 00:44:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 63562 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 00:44:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 00:44:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r05.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.101) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 00:44:41 -0000 Received: from RachelBOsb@aol.com by imo-r05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v30.22.) id r.85.b939ecf (16493) for ; Tue, 5 Jun 2001 20:44:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <85.b939ecf.284ed6f4@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 From: RachelBOsb@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 20:44:36 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Welcome Judy/Terry Pratchett & Earthsea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 36354456a29015e020bce7dcc49f43c3 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7840 In a message dated 6/5/01 5:13:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com writes: > I think what I love about this story is the idea of the poet or > storyteller as a kind of shape-changing embodiment of the culture and > the times, what my Western Civ professors would have called the > "zeitgeist" or spirit of the age. As new cultures emerge, the poets > (almost unavoidably and involuntarily) change their form to relate to > and speak to those cultures, but there's a throughline of memory and > consciousness that connects them all, going back to antiquity. So the > collective poet-consciousness, or bardic spirit, morphs from stag to > boar to eagle to salmon as the times demand, with the goal of > continuing to tell the old stories in the new forms and languages of > the times. > > That's my take on it, anyway. > That's a lovely image! Thanks for sharing it. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 03:05:24 2001 Received: from mo.egroups.com (mo.egroups.com [208.50.144.78]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA23251 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 06:09:39 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-161-991832972-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mo.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Jun 2001 13:09:33 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 13:09:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 3844 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 13:08:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 13:08:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.124) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 13:08:34 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.60.248]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Wed, 6 Jun 2001 14:10:39 +0100 Message-ID: <3B1E2AE0.17816974@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: The Ekumen From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 14:06:41 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] The Unbearable politeness of certain beings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 73193f4a2f61c46dee4710d09de84780 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7915 Since we are all at it, let me apologise to any innicent bystanders overwhelmed by the tsunami of apology and counter-apology this group is currently experiencing. Normal levels of rudeness will be available soon (I sincerely hope). chiz chiz rdg To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 03:07:16 2001 Received: from hl.egroups.com (hl.egroups.com [208.50.99.197]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA29147 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 09:48:28 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-162-991846078-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Jun 2001 16:47:58 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 6 Jun 2001 16:47:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 57254 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2001 16:47:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jun 2001 16:47:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Jun 2001 16:47:47 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA13262 for ; Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:47:44 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010606125355.00866940@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3B1E2AE0.17816974@virgin.net> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 12:53:55 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Unbearable politeness of certain beings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: e40c2b513db9b21a7e7e50dac9428f3f Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7974 And on behalf of all of us for whom I may have the undeserved privilege of speaking, let me apologize for any disappointment or discomfort the shameful excess of civility and consideration for various persons' feelings may have inflicted upon your soul. No offense was intended. Again, so sorry for the apologies. Nevertheless, perhaps you should try the Irvine Welsh group... At 02:06 PM 6/6/01 +0100, you wrote: >Since we are all at it, let me apologise to any innicent >bystanders overwhelmed by the tsunami of apology and >counter-apology this group is currently experiencing. Normal >levels of rudeness will be available soon (I sincerely >hope). > >bile have been removed from this document> > >chiz chiz > >rdg > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 08 06:03:28 2001 Received: from ho.egroups.com (ho.egroups.com [64.211.240.236]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA01866 for ; Fri, 8 Jun 2001 01:22:02 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-163-991988521-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Jun 2001 08:22:01 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 8 Jun 2001 08:22:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 68919 invoked from network); 8 Jun 2001 08:22:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Jun 2001 08:22:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.125) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Jun 2001 08:22:00 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.63.53]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:24:07 +0100 Message-ID: <3B208AB6.A4DA60A4@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <3.0.5.32.20010606125355.00866940@pop.netmeg.net> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 09:20:07 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Re: [the-ekumen] The Unbearable politeness of certain beings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: eb17fdcad4bb5842cd4f4870c05fd3fd If I ruled the world, waste of bandwidth would be a crime. chiz chiz rdg To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 15 19:43:08 2001 Received: from fj.egroups.com (fj.egroups.com [64.211.240.231]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA18121 for ; Sat, 9 Jun 2001 10:29:53 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-164-992107793-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 2001 17:29:53 -0000 X-Sender: pjreads@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 9 Jun 2001 17:29:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 743 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2001 17:29:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Jun 2001 17:29:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.47) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Jun 2001 17:29:49 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: pjreads@aol.com Received: from [10.1.10.112] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jun 2001 17:29:49 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9ftmeb+9r05@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 172.149.9.76 From: pjreads@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 17:29:47 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Workshop with ULG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 59f7a04263ea15aea9f834eb28c23f6d Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 86 Center for Excellence in Writing Writing Workshop High Desert Writing with Ursula Le Guin & Judith Barrington Arrive at Malheur Field Station August 12, depart August 18. Seminar runs August 13-17, 2001. Cost: $625. $140 additional administrative fee available for four undergraduate/graduate credits. Payment of $625 covers lodging, meals, and experience with writers. Prose Narrative, Ursula K. Le Guin We'll learn a little about the original inhabitants of the area and their myth and legends, and we'll work on writing stories to be read aloud--playing with prose as a musical instrument, using our response to the desert and its creatures to create and share myths and tall tales of our own. Poetry, Judith Barrington We'll generate poems inspired by the landscape and history of the desert and discuss the issues surrounding "nature" poetry, while looking at the work of some other poets. Our focus will be on the musical aspects of the poem and on reading aloud. Both groups will go together on short field trips into the extraordinary desert landscape around the Field Station. Possible sites include the bird refuge, pictographs, the Round Barn, Diamond Craters, and the Alvord Desert. For information about Malheur Field Station, including directions, supplies, and more, visit the detailed web page -- http://www.english.pdx.edu/cew/ highdesertwriting.html Space is limited. Application screening will begin soon. To apply, please submit a 5-7 page writing sample, along with a brief statement of your experience and goals as a writer, to W. Tracy Dillon, PhD Center for Excellence in Writing Portland State University PO Box 751 Portland, OR 97207-0751. Center for Excellence in Writing The way to get the word out. http://www.english.pdx.edu/cew/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 15 19:46:17 2001 Received: from b05.egroups.com (b05.egroups.com [208.50.144.96]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA06251 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 08:45:29 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-165-992187927-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 10 Jun 2001 15:45:28 -0000 X-Sender: hueson@fullzero.com.ar X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 10 Jun 2001 15:45:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 93967 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2001 15:45:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Jun 2001 15:45:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO postinofz1.int.prima.com.ar) (200.42.0.149) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Jun 2001 15:45:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 58415 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2001 15:45:22 -0000 Received: from a200061041139.rev.prima.com.ar (HELO tao) (200.61.41.139) by host000149.prima.com.ar with SMTP; 10 Jun 2001 15:45:22 -0000 To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 From: =?us-ascii?Q?Andres_Fernandez_Cordon?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:46:31 -0300 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] Re: Earthsea & thanks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f20ec5941869519d04ef86556a1d2b57 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 161 -----Mensaje original----- De: Dave Awl [mailto:dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com] Enviado el: martes, 05 de junio de 2001 21:09 Para: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Asunto: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Welcome Judy/Terry Pratchett & Earthsea dave said: >I think what I love about this story is the idea of the poet or >storyteller as a kind of shape-changing embodiment of the culture and >the times, what my Western Civ professors would have called the >"zeitgeist" or spirit of the age. As new cultures emerge, the poets >(almost unavoidably and involuntarily) change their form to relate to >and speak to those cultures, but there's a throughline of memory and >consciousness that connects them all, going back to antiquity. So the >collective poet-consciousness, or bardic spirit, morphs from stag to >boar to eagle to salmon as the times demand, with the goal of >continuing to tell the old stories in the new forms and languages of >the times. > >That's my take on it, anyway. > >Dave thanks for that beautiful tale, it takes the sense of shape-changing to a cycle kind of narration, and the purpose of telling the old stories (i liked it a lot) makes me think about new stories i could wrote with ancient storytellers coming from the past to reveal miths or truths. but, following the waves of apologises and sorries, i had to make my own: i?m from Argentine and english isn?t my main language, so i apologise for my limitations and mistakes in reading and writing to all of you. i?ll continue trying to share these things about uklg because i?m very interested, those of earthsea (wich i?ve read in spanish the four of them) have been the best books i?ve ever read once and again. apologise too for this boring introduction of myself. thanks to all for keeping me in this way of growing my education on these matters. andres. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 15 19:47:00 2001 Received: from ck.egroups.com (ck.egroups.com [208.50.144.69]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA15454 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:26:17 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-166-992222776-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ck.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Jun 2001 01:26:17 -0000 X-Sender: heyiya@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 11 Jun 2001 01:26:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 26865 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2001 01:26:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Jun 2001 01:26:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.22) by mta2 with SMTP; 11 Jun 2001 01:26:14 -0000 Received: from [38.28.131.100] (ip100.portland13.or.pub-ip.psi.net [38.28.131.100]) by hawk.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24953 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:26:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: heyiya@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: heather w MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 18:27:24 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] scifi channel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 671e392d6bc09f3ba2eb3a0df91e3bcb Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 205 I've seen a press release saying that the SciFi channel will be producing both an Earthsea miniseries and a Left Hand of Darkness miniseries, both for 2003. That's all I know about it, except that they will *not* be using Ursula Le Guin's screenplay for LHD. There might be something more at www.scifi.com Heather * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple heyiya@earthlink.net To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Jun 15 19:47:00 2001 Received: from hi.egroups.com (n2.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.52]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA16846 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:00:20 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-167-992228390-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Jun 2001 02:59:50 -0000 X-Sender: paula@ba.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 11 Jun 2001 02:59:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 45740 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2001 02:59:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Jun 2001 02:59:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pop1.lc-2.la.inter.net) (66.60.8.6) by mta3 with SMTP; 11 Jun 2001 02:59:48 -0000 Received: from babydolphin (h066060045112.isol.net.ar [66.60.45.112]) by pop1.lc-2.la.inter.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA01666 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:00:39 -0400 Message-ID: <001d01c0f223$1cc93760$702d3c42@babydolphin> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "paula" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 00:03:36 -0300 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Earthsea & thanks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ee3ac0c38723d376f23d3aac69b4e18d Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 210 hi andres!! i'm from Argentine too....!!! where are you from? how strange to find someone from Argentina that loves Le Guin too and that is here on this list !! :o) nos escribimos :o) hasta luego! paula. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Jun 24 18:57:53 2001 Received: from hj.egroups.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA25603 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:08:57 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-168-993168507-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2001 00:08:27 -0000 X-Sender: mystrongjaw@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 22 Jun 2001 00:08:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 64186 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2001 00:08:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 22 Jun 2001 00:08:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO f19.egroups.com) (10.1.2.136) by mta1 with SMTP; 22 Jun 2001 00:08:26 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: mystrongjaw@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.27] by f19.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2001 00:08:12 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9gu296+2kbg@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 64.167.12.214 From: mystrongjaw@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:08:06 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Did Thorion make it back or not? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 870118feeeb29e11d88632f4dd61d354 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1380 At the end of the third Earthsea book, it clearly states that Thorion came out to greet Ged and Arren when they came back from the Dry Land, indicating that Thorion had made it back as well. But in the fourth book, it clearly states that Thorion had not made it back. Is this just a discrepancy between books, or am I missing something? Thanks. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Jun 24 18:58:35 2001 Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [208.50.144.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA27310 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 18:22:04 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-169-993172923-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2001 01:22:03 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 22 Jun 2001 01:21:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 9340 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2001 01:21:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 22 Jun 2001 01:21:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta1 with SMTP; 22 Jun 2001 01:21:57 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (fred174.u3.cos.pcisys.net [208.205.225.174]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f5M1Lto24983 for ; Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:21:56 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B32ACC7.9E92B951@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:26:15 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] another county heard from Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 7ae32d6344f636281eedba3fbaa3945f Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1389 My name is Grey Walker. I've been lurking until I could read all the archived messages. I was delighted to discover this list, and thank Dave for starting it. I must say that I've been enjoying the eloquent and graceful apologizing that has been going on--as well as the vigorous and equally graceful arguing that preceded it. It seems to me to be completely within the spirit of the Ekumen as Le Guin has described it to us. I'm impressed. I'm also pleased to find that this is such an international list, which also seems to me to be decidedly Ekumenical. I know that for most of you the conversations of this list have been stretched out over several months, but for me they've occurred in a sort of concentrated form via the archive. For that reason, I hope you will indulge me if I respond belatedly to an earlier thread about utopias. One of my favorite quotations from UKLG is this one: "If a utopia is a place that does not exist, then surely (as Lao Tsu would say) the way to get there is by the way that is not a way. And in the same vein, the nature of the utopia I am trying to describe is such that if it is to come, it must exist already. I believe that it does." Unfortunately, I wrote this down in my quotation book years ago, and didn't put down where it came from,but I'm fairly certain it's from one of her essays. Grey djwalker@pcisys.net To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Jun 24 19:00:20 2001 Received: from fg.egroups.com (fg.egroups.com [208.50.144.70]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA04818 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 02:11:02 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-170-993201063-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by fg.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2001 09:11:03 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 22 Jun 2001 09:11:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 20268 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2001 09:11:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 22 Jun 2001 09:11:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-2.enteract.com) (207.229.143.4) by mta2 with SMTP; 22 Jun 2001 09:11:00 -0000 Received: from [207.229.142.138] (216-80-34-2.d.enteract.com [216.80.34.2]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEB7F6320 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:10:58 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9gu296+2kbg@eGroups.com> References: <9gu296+2kbg@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 03:56:20 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Did Thorion make it back or not? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: e89453e995f225e66ae23e11dd2b5561 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1448 >At the end of the third Earthsea book, it clearly states that Thorion >came out to greet Ged and Arren when they came back from the Dry >Land, indicating that Thorion had made it back as well. But in the >fourth book, it clearly states that Thorion had not made it back. > >Is this just a discrepancy between books, or am I missing something? > >Thanks. Have you read the new Tales from Earthsea collection yet? I'm not going to do anything spoilerish in this particular message, but I will say that when you read the last story in Tales, "Dragonfly," I think some light may be shed on your question. If you *have* read "Dragonfly," and are still wondering, let us know and maybe we should discuss that, because I think multiple interpretations of what happened are possible. And, in true Taoist/Jungian fashion, whenever UKL sheds some light, she always makes sure to shed a little darkness as well, bless her. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Jun 24 19:00:20 2001 Received: from jj.egroups.com (jj.egroups.com [208.50.144.82]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA04819 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 02:11:03 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-171-993201063-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2001 09:11:03 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 22 Jun 2001 09:11:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 19830 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2001 09:11:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 22 Jun 2001 09:11:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-2.enteract.com) (207.229.143.4) by mta2 with SMTP; 22 Jun 2001 09:11:01 -0000 Received: from [207.229.142.138] (216-80-34-2.d.enteract.com [216.80.34.2]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 393DA6315 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 04:11:00 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B32ACC7.9E92B951@pcisys.net> References: <3B32ACC7.9E92B951@pcisys.net> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 03:58:53 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] another county heard from Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a643a8cb2cdc6fa26584eb478e2af423 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1449 >My name is Grey Walker. I've been lurking until I could read all the >archived messages. I was delighted to discover this list, and thank >Dave for starting it. Hi Grey, welcome to the list. Since some of us have already apologized for apologizing, now I get to thank you for thanking me. I can't off the top of my head identify the quotation you posted, but I hope someone else out there can because I'd like to know, too. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Jun 24 19:00:21 2001 Received: from b05.egroups.com (b05.egroups.com [208.50.144.96]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA07086 for ; Fri, 22 Jun 2001 05:12:01 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-172-993211921-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2001 12:12:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 90060 invoked from network); 22 Jun 2001 12:11:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 22 Jun 2001 12:11:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mv.egroups.com) (10.1.1.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 22 Jun 2001 12:11:59 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: notify@yahoogroups.com Received: from [10.1.10.99] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jun 2001 12:11:58 -0000 Message-ID: <993211916.421.55803.s9@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: polls From: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 22 Jun 2001 12:11:56 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Poll results for the-ekumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 12b4735ecf71a85bf88c8a41d981ebfb Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1456 The following the-ekumen poll is now closed. Here are the final results: POLL QUESTION: Which type of UKL's books do you prefer: CHOICES AND RESULTS - fantasy, 4 votes, 30.77% - SF, 9 votes, 69.23% For more information about this group, please visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-ekumen For help with Yahoo! Groups, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Jun 30 18:18:23 2001 Received: from ho.egroups.com (ho.egroups.com [64.211.240.236]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA25281 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 02:26:14 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-173-993461174-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Jun 2001 09:26:14 -0000 X-Sender: mairen@bigpond.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 25 Jun 2001 09:26:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 38408 invoked from network); 25 Jun 2001 09:26:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 Jun 2001 09:26:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hp.egroups.com) (10.1.2.220) by mta1 with SMTP; 25 Jun 2001 09:26:13 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: mairen@bigpond.com Received: from [10.1.4.66] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Jun 2001 09:26:12 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9h703k+aaj8@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 144.134.15.195 From: mairen@bigpond.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:26:12 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Introducing myself Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 9b3bdb40c77447daa04395a564cb8b2b Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 44 hi- I am a new member (obviously) My na,e si Maire (pron Mary) and Im from Australia. I love le guin's work, and the work of other authors with a similar writing style such as Candas Dorsey, some of Tepper, Butler... How many people her have read the Telling? I have bought , but not read it yet... from what I am hearing, it is getting some mixed reviews form readers.. not her best work?? Anyway, nice to meet everyone, hope to have some interesting discussions, Maire To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Jun 30 18:18:23 2001 Received: from ho.egroups.com (ho.egroups.com [64.211.240.236]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA25365 for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 02:33:05 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-174-993461585-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Jun 2001 09:33:05 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 25 Jun 2001 09:33:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 1134 invoked from network); 25 Jun 2001 09:33:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 25 Jun 2001 09:33:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-2.enteract.com) (207.229.143.4) by mta1 with SMTP; 25 Jun 2001 09:33:04 -0000 Received: from [207.229.142.161] (207-229-142-161.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.161]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 202FD5EAF for ; Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:33:03 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9h703k+aaj8@eGroups.com> References: <9h703k+aaj8@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 04:32:57 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Introducing myself Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ae3c08dac243395a7c67165a285b4249 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 Hi Maire, welcome to the group. >How many people her have read the Telling? I have bought , but not >read it yet... from what I am hearing, it is getting some mixed >reviews form readers.. not her best work?? I've read it, and while I would agree that it's not her *best* work, that's only because it has such tough competition, and certainly doesn't mean it's not worthwhile. I enjoyed it very much myself... On a related note, I'll mention that a friend of mine who had never before read a word of UKL rather brashly picked Tales from Earthsea and read it with no prior introduction to Earthsea. And she loved it. I'd never recommend starting with the fifth book in a series, but it's nice to know the book can be so well-enjoyed by someone who did. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Jun 30 18:52:17 2001 Received: from ci.egroups.com (ci.egroups.com [64.211.240.235]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA11468 for ; Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:40:00 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-175-993739198-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jun 2001 14:40:00 -0000 X-Sender: sepiola@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 28 Jun 2001 14:39:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 42545 invoked from network); 28 Jun 2001 14:38:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 28 Jun 2001 14:38:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.43) by mta1 with SMTP; 28 Jun 2001 14:38:51 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sepiola@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.52] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 28 Jun 2001 14:38:51 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9hffho+ig6v@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.136.248.6 From: sepiola@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:38:48 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Looking for an Ursula's quotation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 14f01906c0d6ecec2c5e6fdc44fdbb25 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1129 Good morning! Being a big Ursula's fan, I want to use one of her exceptional sentences as an epigraph in my PhD thesis. I'm looking for one curious sentence I read 10 years ago in one of her books. As I read a many of her novels at the time, I don't know exactly where the sentence came from. But I know it belongs to a novel (not to an essay) and not to a recent novel (say, before 1980). I don't know exactly the words Ursula used; I read the book in the Portuguese translation... So, it will be very difficult to say the sentence with the true words, but I remember the overall meaning. It says something like: "We could live under the light of many different suns, but there is only one darkness" or "There is only one darkness, but we can live under the light of many different suns". Does this sentence ring any bell in your heads? Please, help me to recover that sentence lost. Thank you in advance. Luis Faisca To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Jun 30 18:58:29 2001 Received: from ci.egroups.com (ci.egroups.com [64.211.240.235]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA13820 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 05:10:01 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-176-993816599-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Jun 2001 12:10:00 -0000 X-Sender: Snorre.Svendsen@eng.uib.no X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 29 Jun 2001 12:09:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 28629 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2001 12:08:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Jun 2001 12:08:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail50.fg.online.no) (148.122.161.50) by mta3 with SMTP; 29 Jun 2001 12:08:06 -0000 Received: from [130.67.194.12] (ti21a03-0012.dialup.online.no [130.67.194.12]) by mail50.fg.online.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22943 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 14:08:02 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: s134602@pop.sensewave.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B32ACC7.9E92B951@pcisys.net> References: <3B32ACC7.9E92B951@pcisys.net> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Snorre Svendsen MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:27:39 +0200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] another county heard from Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: b75d63e0eb8ac292b134dd681a89ff2e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1373 Hi Grey, Thanks for the occasion to delurk. >One of my favorite quotations from UKLG is this one: "If a utopia is a >place that does not exist (...)" (snip) >Unfortunately, I >wrote this down in my quotation book years ago, and didn't put down >where it came from,but I'm fairly certain it's from one of her essays. It's from "A Non-Euclidean View of California as a Cold Place to Be" (p.93 in my Harper Perennial Library edition of _Dancing at the Edge of the World_). Hope this helps, Snorre -- Snorre Svendsen "Your little dog will fight for you?" - U.K. Le Guin To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Jun 30 18:58:29 2001 Received: from ci.egroups.com (ci.egroups.com [64.211.240.235]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA25902 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 05:51:19 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-177-993819079-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Jun 2001 12:51:19 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 29 Jun 2001 12:51:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 54224 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2001 12:51:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Jun 2001 12:51:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 29 Jun 2001 12:51:18 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (fred118.u1.cos.pcisys.net [208.205.225.118]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f5TCpGr21189 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 06:51:16 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B3C88F5.60909@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <3B32ACC7.9E92B951@pcisys.net> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 06:56:05 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re:utopia quotation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6171cc664760e821c0f6c96020f6e1a9 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1383 Snorre Svendsen wrote: > Hi Grey, > > Thanks for the occasion to delurk. > > >One of my favorite quotations from UKLG is this one: "If a utopia is a > >place that does not exist (...)" > > (snip) > > >Unfortunately, I > >wrote this down in my quotation book years ago, and didn't put down > >where it came from,but I'm fairly certain it's from one of her essays. > > It's from "A Non-Euclidean View of California as a Cold Place to Be" > (p.93 in my Harper Perennial Library edition of _Dancing at the Edge > of the World_). > > Hope this helps, > Snorre Thank you! That's been driving me crazy.... I just moved, and so many of my books are still in boxes that I haven't been able to go looking for the quotation myself. I keep a little palm-sized blank book to write my favorite quotations in, but as it's just for me, I usually only note the author of the quotation, not where it's from. And most people that I pass my favorite quotations along to don't know Le Guin well enough to care. Incidentally, I've been tracking down the short stories "Coming of Age in Karhide" and "Mountain Ways" that were mentioned earlier. I've been able to find Bear's anthology at the library, but I may have to buy the Asimov Utopias. Poor me. efenblide, Grey > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Jun 30 18:58:29 2001 Received: from ci.egroups.com (ci.egroups.com [64.211.240.235]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA27084 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 05:57:10 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-178-993819431-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Jun 2001 12:57:11 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 29 Jun 2001 12:57:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 95832 invoked from network); 29 Jun 2001 12:57:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Jun 2001 12:57:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta3 with SMTP; 29 Jun 2001 12:57:08 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (fred118.u1.cos.pcisys.net [208.205.225.118]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f5TCv7r23746 for ; Fri, 29 Jun 2001 06:57:07 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B3C8A51.6080804@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <9hffho+ig6v@eGroups.com> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:01:53 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Looking for an Ursula's quotation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: d47d88833ec952d10726f6b7df811d33 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1385 sepiola@yahoo.com wrote: > I don't know exactly the words Ursula used; I read the book in the > Portuguese translation... So, it will be very difficult to say the > sentence with the true words, but I remember the overall meaning. It > says something like: > "We could live under the light of many different suns, but there is > only one darkness" > or > "There is only one darkness, but we can live under the light of many > different suns". > > Does this sentence ring any bell in your heads? > Please, help me to recover that sentence lost. > Thank you in advance. Well, Snorre? What about this one? You know, this is beginning to feel like a television quiz show in *my* idea of utopia! efenblide, Grey To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 04 10:24:18 2001 Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [208.50.144.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA08156 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:16:58 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-179-994162616-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2001 12:16:57 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 3 Jul 2001 12:16:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 99234 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2001 12:16:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2001 12:16:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.65) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2001 12:16:55 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:16:53 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.12 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:16:53 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.12] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2001 12:16:53.0578 (UTC) FILETIME=[0B8E9AA0:01C103BA] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 00:16:53 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] cold and non-euclidian being the opperative words Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: bcb9f08bf1e629b58b383c813343efb7 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 643 Hi Guys... I've said this before... but I'll say it again... this is one great essay... it has some of my very favourite Le Guin quotes in it. I love the idea in this essay, as in AWC, that perhaps to reach utopia, you have to go backwards, not fowards. Isn't it wonderful that such a view can co-exist wuith certain modes of science fiction, that contain all this technological progress with zero social progress?! I also love the way the title pertains to Yevgeny Zamyatin's We... if you're a fan of Le Guin, it's a good book to read, because I get the feeling it has influenced her greatly. Sometimes I think Le Guin writes even better prose than she does fiction. Anyone have any favourite essays? Jenn >From: Snorre Svendsen >Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] another county heard from >Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 12:27:39 +0200 > >Hi Grey, > >Thanks for the occasion to delurk. > > >One of my favorite quotations from UKLG is this one: "If a utopia is a > >place that does not exist (...)" > >(snip) > > >Unfortunately, I > >wrote this down in my quotation book years ago, and didn't put down > >where it came from,but I'm fairly certain it's from one of her essays. > >It's from "A Non-Euclidean View of California as a Cold Place to Be" >(p.93 in my Harper Perennial Library edition of _Dancing at the Edge >of the World_). > >Hope this helps, >Snorre >-- >Snorre Svendsen >"Your little dog will fight for you?" - U.K. Le Guin _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 04 10:24:18 2001 Received: from ho.egroups.com (ho.egroups.com [64.211.240.236]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA08256 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:21:59 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-180-994162917-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2001 12:21:57 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 3 Jul 2001 12:21:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 66590 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2001 12:21:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Jul 2001 12:21:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.247) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2001 12:21:56 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 05:21:56 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.12 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 03 Jul 2001 12:21:56 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.12] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2001 12:21:56.0269 (UTC) FILETIME=[BFF995D0:01C103BA] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 00:21:56 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Ultimate Utopia Quiz Show Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: c5c6e16f459acedb44b9d3d8bc5ddb8d Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 645 that is the coolest idea ever, Grey. I can't think of a better quiz show. *jumps up and down* can we do it? huh? *reminds herself to ask her mum for the Faber Big Book of Utopia for her 21st* >From: Grey Walker >Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Looking for an Ursula's quotation >Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 07:01:53 -0700 > >sepiola@yahoo.com wrote: > > > I don't know exactly the words Ursula used; I read the book in the > > Portuguese translation... So, it will be very difficult to say the > > sentence with the true words, but I remember the overall meaning. It > > says something like: > > "We could live under the light of many different suns, but there is > > only one darkness" > > or > > "There is only one darkness, but we can live under the light of many > > different suns". > > > > Does this sentence ring any bell in your heads? > > Please, help me to recover that sentence lost. > > Thank you in advance. > >Well, Snorre? What about this one? You know, this is beginning to feel >like a television quiz show in *my* idea of utopia! > >efenblide, Grey > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 04 10:28:05 2001 Received: from f19.egroups.com (f19.egroups.com [64.211.240.234]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA14207 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:16:02 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-181-994176959-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by f19.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2001 16:15:59 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 3 Jul 2001 16:15:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 59221 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2001 16:15:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2001 16:15:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2001 16:15:57 -0000 Received: from [208.2.167.104] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 5697005 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:18:17 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010703091555.00888180@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:15:55 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] the telling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a7677b91e7c855817053bfaf22963c31 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 794 I just finished reading The Telling--an interesting and also one of her simpler works. Eastern influence, especially Taoism, very dominant here, stronger than I've seen it in any of her other works. Downside was the ending--a bit rushed I thought, and a loose end or two, or so it seemed to me. Is there a sequel in the works? -=Fred=- From my tiny roof Smooth...soft...still white snow Melts in melody. - Issa - email: fredr@gci-net.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 04 10:28:54 2001 Received: from hj.egroups.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA17327 for ; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:14:34 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-182-994180443-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Jul 2001 17:14:04 -0000 X-Sender: iwr77@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 3 Jul 2001 17:14:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 4355 invoked from network); 3 Jul 2001 17:14:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Jul 2001 17:14:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.237) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Jul 2001 17:14:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Jul 2001 10:14:01 -0700 Received: from 146.186.159.216 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 03 Jul 2001 17:14:00 GMT X-Originating-IP: [146.186.159.216] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jul 2001 17:14:01.0082 (UTC) FILETIME=[8D93D5A0:01C103E3] From: "Ian W. Riddell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 13:14:00 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Le Guin and Taoism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 7d9ff1f368be76d0d8768fe2d9e0ee69 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 821 Greetings all! As I read Le Guin, I am aware of her exploration of Taoist ideas. Is there peice of writing of UKLG's that folks think best exemplifies her exploration of these ideas? thanks widdy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 21:47:55 2001 Received: from hn.egroups.com (hn.egroups.com [208.50.99.199]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA20676 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 15:41:35 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-183-994286465-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Jul 2001 22:41:05 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 4 Jul 2001 22:41:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 32816 invoked from network); 4 Jul 2001 22:40:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Jul 2001 22:40:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-2.enteract.com) (207.229.143.4) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Jul 2001 22:40:55 -0000 Received: from [207.229.172.94] (207-229-172-94.d.enteract.com [207.229.172.94]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8927CF4 for ; Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:40:54 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:29:10 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin and Taoism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3bb6b85561efbc8f1cdd505855a363ef Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 >As I read Le Guin, I am aware of her exploration of Taoist ideas. Is there >peice of writing of UKLG's that folks think best exemplifies her exploration >of these ideas? I would nominate The Lathe of Heaven, which functions as a kind of Taoist parable and even draws on Taoist writings for chapter epigraphs. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 21:48:40 2001 Received: from mv.egroups.com (mv.egroups.com [208.50.144.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA01424 for ; Thu, 5 Jul 2001 03:32:58 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-184-994329178-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Jul 2001 10:32:58 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 5 Jul 2001 10:32:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 91238 invoked from network); 5 Jul 2001 10:32:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Jul 2001 10:32:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.125) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Jul 2001 10:32:45 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.60.245]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Thu, 5 Jul 2001 11:34:57 +0100 Message-ID: <3B4441C9.49026250@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:30:34 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin and Taoism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 2d3a82def7e671bbd7efea9c071b0bcc Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 155 I'm still thinking about which work best explores taoist ideas. During the meanwhile:- Dave Awl wrote: > The Lathe of Heaven, ...a kind of Taoist parable Dear Dave-san, in a non-taoist, reductionist sort of way, could you lay out how 'Lathe' is a taoist parable? chiz chiz rdg To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 21:57:13 2001 Received: from c3.egroups.com (c3.egroups.com [208.50.99.225]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA12352 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:47:55 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-185-994420038-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Jul 2001 11:47:19 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 6 Jul 2001 11:47:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 73723 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2001 11:47:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jul 2001 11:47:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.62) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Jul 2001 11:47:17 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:47:17 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.19 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 06 Jul 2001 11:47:17 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.19] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jul 2001 11:47:17.0809 (UTC) FILETIME=[685B0210:01C10611] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 23:47:17 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin and Taoism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6c6e19abcdf89643630eaaae88f7afba Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 432 I know I'm not dave.. but as far as I understood it... the scientist is like the rational, progressive, trying to create the perfect world YANG and the dreamer is like the intuitive non-rational artist YIN so it's a struggle for the artist to keep the univerese in balance when the scientist is trying to use his creative forces to change it *pants* it's also a story that's heaps like Yevgeny Zamyatin's We... which has had an influence on Le Guin... my two cents... Jenn >From: Roddy Graham >Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin and Taoism >Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:30:34 +0100 > >I'm still thinking about which work best explores taoist ideas. During the >meanwhile:- > >Dave Awl wrote: > > > The Lathe of Heaven, ...a kind of Taoist parable > >Dear Dave-san, in a non-taoist, reductionist sort of way, could you lay out >how >'Lathe' is a taoist parable? > >chiz chiz > >rdg > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 21:57:13 2001 Received: from fk.egroups.com (fk.egroups.com [64.211.240.232]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA16338 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:51:44 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-186-994420304-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Jul 2001 11:51:44 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 6 Jul 2001 11:51:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 52059 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2001 11:51:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 6 Jul 2001 11:51:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.59) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Jul 2001 11:51:43 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:51:43 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.19 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 06 Jul 2001 11:51:43 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.19] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jul 2001 11:51:43.0624 (UTC) FILETIME=[06CB2880:01C10612] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 23:51:43 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin and Taoism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 2a0ed339fbc1a42770fd4ba1526e2e28 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 434 heaps of Le Guin's writing carried what some have called the turb and return motif... like Shevek in The Dipossesed and Stone Telling in Always Coming Home, but I'm not sure if this is taoist and not... the heyiya-if in ACH definitely is though... like the yin yang symbol... I'll stop rambling.. it's too late *hides* >From: Dave Awl >Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin and Taoism >Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 17:29:10 -0500 > > >As I read Le Guin, I am aware of her exploration of Taoist ideas. Is >there > >peice of writing of UKLG's that folks think best exemplifies her >exploration > >of these ideas? > >I would nominate The Lathe of Heaven, which functions as a kind of >Taoist parable and even draws on Taoist writings for chapter >epigraphs. > >Dave >-- >_______________________________________________ >The new, improved Ocelot Factory: >http://www.ocelotfactory.com _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 21:57:13 2001 Received: from fl.egroups.com (fl.egroups.com [64.211.240.233]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA20529 for ; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:55:36 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-187-994420535-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 06 Jul 2001 11:55:35 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 6 Jul 2001 11:55:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 5295 invoked from network); 6 Jul 2001 11:55:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Jul 2001 11:55:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.124) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Jul 2001 11:55:35 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:55:35 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.13 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 06 Jul 2001 11:55:34 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.13] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jul 2001 11:55:35.0187 (UTC) FILETIME=[90D0DE30:01C10612] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 23:55:34 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] the telling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 08a627330c4e97989246d1ac35d062ef Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 435 really? what were the taoist influences? *interested, hasn't read it yet* Jenn >From: Fred Runk >Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [the-ekumen] the telling >Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:15:55 -0700 > >I just finished reading The Telling--an interesting and also one of her >simpler works. Eastern influence, especially Taoism, very dominant here, >stronger than I've seen it in any of her other works. > >Downside was the ending--a bit rushed I thought, and a loose end or two, or >so it seemed to me. Is there a sequel in the works? > > > > >-=Fred=- > > From my tiny roof > Smooth...soft...still white snow > Melts in melody. > - Issa - > >email: fredr@gci-net.com > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 22:13:57 2001 Received: from mk.egroups.com (mk.egroups.com [208.50.144.76]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23804 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 08:59:02 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-188-994694342-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jul 2001 15:59:02 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 9 Jul 2001 15:59:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 18251 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2001 15:58:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Jul 2001 15:58:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta3 with SMTP; 9 Jul 2001 15:58:06 -0000 Received: from vin ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA27060 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 11:58:04 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010709115800.0088c4d0@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 11:58:00 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin and Taoism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 1072a783cc18548f6cdd2aafc549f349 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 992 OK, I'm sorry to be a bore* but please help me out here. I know the Tao is difficult to explain. I have been exposed to it only in having read a pop-ish translation, with lots of misty BW photos, of the Tao Te Ching and having loved it and memorized several of my favorite verses to ponder as a sensual exercise for my mind, but have not studied it per se nor explored it with any guidance. SO, could somebody please explain why UKL is so often linked with Taoism? I know there's often a serene acceptance of the truth inherent in the ebb and flow of the forces reality; I know that UKL's characters tend to balance forces instead of conquering them; I suppose Lathe seems to be about what happens when you try to mess with the world's balance (or rather about how the world will always find a new way to balance, making consequences non-linear, and the prediction of consequences of attempts to change it therefore futile, and how things end up the way they're supposed to in the end anyhow). But I don't know if these things are necessarily Taoist manifestations. The movie, "Election," with Matthew Broderick, is essentially similar -- it's about an attempt to change the way the world works, and the unintended, unpredictable yet strangely consonant consequences of that attempt -- and nobody's talking about that story as Taoist. So I'm asking two things here: 1 Would somebody please put up a working definition or description of Taoism? Perhaps we could all collaborate 2 When we speak of her Taoist writing, are we identifying an influence, or are we taking the position that her writing implicitly teaches a Taoist outlook? best to all v *Gratuitous apology, to piss off Roddy ; ) >>From: Roddy Graham >>Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >>To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >>Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin and Taoism >>Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 11:30:34 +0100 >> >>I'm still thinking about which work best explores taoist ideas. During the >>meanwhile:- >> >>Dave Awl wrote: >> >> > The Lathe of Heaven, ...a kind of Taoist parable >> >>Dear Dave-san, in a non-taoist, reductionist sort of way, could you lay out >>how >>'Lathe' is a taoist parable? >> >>chiz chiz >> >>rdg >> > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 22:17:05 2001 Received: from hk.egroups.com (n4.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.54]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA08648 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:33:28 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-189-994710777-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jul 2001 20:32:57 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 9 Jul 2001 20:32:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 76708 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2001 20:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Jul 2001 20:32:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta3 with SMTP; 9 Jul 2001 20:32:56 -0000 Received: from [208.32.92.239] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 5833156 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 09 Jul 2001 13:35:31 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010709133254.007d45d0@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010709115800.0088c4d0@pop.netmeg.net> References: From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 13:32:54 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin and Taoism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 9bf37b40e0a647f7a6652b07b58038ea Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1090 >1 Would somebody please put up a working definition or description of >Taoism? Perhaps we could all collaborate heh, heh, heh. Now, that's a question. There are two strands in taoism. One starts with the TaoTeChing and ChuangTzu--this is usually referred to as ethical or philosophical taoism. The earliest writings are probably around 200-300 bc. The second major strand is religious taoism which started between 100-200 ad, the exact date is known, I just don't remember it. UKLG's influence or interest, as shown in her writings, is about the ethical/philosophical brand. That type has no god, temples, rituals, rites, o ceremonies. The focus is on determining the state of the universe, as it is demonstrated in one's own neighborhood, and trying to work -with- it, rather than against it. There is a "flow" to events which the wise will attempt to identify and go along with, rather than fight against and cause a disruption. If one wishes to farm, one should plant crops that fit in with the climate--crops requiring little water in areas of limited rainfall, and vice-versa. If one wishes to accomplish a task, one should determine the best course on the basis of the envirnment, not because of one's prejudices or "favorite" methods. That's only a start. I hope most here will agree with me. If not, I see an interesting "discussion" arising here. >2 When we speak of her Taoist writing, are we identifying an influence, or >are we taking the position that her writing implicitly teaches a Taoist >outlook? Considering her latest book, The Telling, I would say she's leaning toward teaching a taoist outlook. Moreover, consider the ending. Sutty uses classic taoist strategy here; she works within and uses the Corporate system/philosophy to achieve her ends. -=Fred=- My very bone-ends... Made contact with the icy quilts of deep December... - Buson - email: fredr@gci-net.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 22:17:05 2001 Received: from c3.egroups.com (c3.egroups.com [208.50.99.225]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA09511 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 13:50:08 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-190-994711776-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jul 2001 20:49:36 -0000 X-Sender: Snorre.Svendsen@eng.uib.no X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 9 Jul 2001 20:49:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 21157 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2001 20:49:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Jul 2001 20:49:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail45.fg.online.no) (148.122.161.45) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Jul 2001 20:49:26 -0000 Received: from [130.67.194.88] (ti21a03-0088.dialup.online.no [130.67.194.88]) by mail45.fg.online.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02091 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:49:23 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: s134602@pop.sensewave.com (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010709115800.0088c4d0@pop.netmeg.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20010709115800.0088c4d0@pop.netmeg.net> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Snorre Svendsen MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 22:48:05 +0200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Le Guin and Taoism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 25eb9bb8f55f69fd96f89d1be2d5c4e5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1092 Hi people, At 11:58 -0400 on 09.07.2001, Vin Urbanowski wrote: [major snippage] >So I'm asking two things here: > >1 Would somebody please put up a working definition or description of >Taoism? Perhaps we could all collaborate From the good lady's own version of Lao Tzu: "The way you can go isn't the real way. The name you can say isn't the real name." (Le Guin: _Lao Tzu: Tao Te Ching - A Book about the Way and the Power of the Way_, Shambhala 1997.) How's that for a definition? It's more of an un-definition really - which is not necessarily such a bad thing. >2 When we speak of her Taoist writing, are we identifying an influence, or >are we taking the position that her writing implicitly teaches a Taoist >outlook? Both, I would say; or, perhaps better, neither. I don't really see taoism as an "influence": taoist ideas make up the basic building blocks of her fictional constructs. It's there in themes, characters, images, cooking. For example, in _The Telling_ (which I'm currently reading and enjoying): 1. The "wind-walkers" is an old taoist idea, the sages were thought to be able to walk on air (as well as live forever). I liked when Le Guin let the village idiot step up to taoist sage status. 2. The opposition between two worlds (Unist Earth and Corporation Aka) is set into relief by the gradual unveiling of the Telling. The rationalist and (hm) religionist states are shown to be two aspects of the same phenomenon, fundamentalism, when seen in contrast to the essentially relational Telling. 3. The pungent tea: not taoist perhaps, but very Chinese. Lapsang souchong, anyone? Cheers, Snorre -- Snorre Svendsen "Your little dog will fight for you?" - U.K. Le Guin To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 22:17:46 2001 Received: from hk.egroups.com (n4.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.54]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA19401 for ; Mon, 9 Jul 2001 16:49:11 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-191-994722520-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jul 2001 23:48:41 -0000 X-Sender: judyldubois@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 9 Jul 2001 23:48:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 74200 invoked from network); 9 Jul 2001 23:48:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Jul 2001 23:48:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hi.egroups.com) (10.1.10.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Jul 2001 23:48:38 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: judyldubois@aol.com Received: from [10.1.2.52] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Jul 2001 23:48:38 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9idfsm+t33u@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 172.191.166.34 From: judyldubois@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 23:48:38 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Taoism and Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 115d2aa75d0a019c05d0ed514171c1fc Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1133 I was doing research on Le Guin for a master's thesis when I came across a statement she made in Language of the Night, that she was a non Christian and an unconventional Taoist. I then had to do research into Taoism, because I had only the vaguest idea of what it was, and I'm afraid the whole concept is allergic to definitions. But what I did learn illuminated much of Le Guin's writing for me, particularly The Lathe of Heaven which had left me feeling very let down when I first read it. I believe that Le Guin's attitude towards life is very sympathetic to the principles of balance, of continual change, of nonaction being as important as action, of striving for natual harmony. Once you have grasped the ideal of the Taoist sage, someone who causes things to happen just because he exists, someone who sits in front of his door and waits for the world to come to him, many of Le Guin's characters, such as Ogion and of course Orr the dreamer, take on impressive substance and depth. When I reread Lathe, I loved it. The Left Hand of Darkness gets its very title from the concept of yin and yang. Left as opposed to right, darkness as opposed to light, female as opposed to male, and underlying all opposing pairs a fundamental harmony and unity, the Tao. It doesn't take much looking to find Taoist interpretations of almost everything she's written. Take "The Ones who walked away from Omelas". The wonderful city where everything is joy and goodness is balanced by the dread unknown world beyond, but at the heart of the city is the essence of evil, the neglected, abused child. And into the dark unknown wilderness go the very best of the citizens of Omelas, those who can not accept the child's ransom for their happiness, the essence of goodness. The story is a beautiful metaphor of the yin- yang symbol which is often interpreted as meaning that the essence of darkness is in light and the essence of light is in darkness. I'm not claiming that Le Guin deliberately set out to write it as such, but I think she has integrated the principles of Taoism, or at least certain principles, so thoroughly that they shape the way she sees the world. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 22:31:33 2001 Received: from hl.egroups.com (hl.egroups.com [208.50.99.197]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA10762 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:59:21 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-192-994885129-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Jul 2001 20:58:50 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 11 Jul 2001 20:58:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 87741 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2001 20:57:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Jul 2001 20:57:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 11 Jul 2001 20:57:59 -0000 Received: from [208.32.92.95] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 5894091 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:00:38 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010711135759.00895d50@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9idfsm+t33u@eGroups.com> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 13:57:59 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Taoism and Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 43c5ae12da4c363a1408be83f72b98bf Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1617 At 11:48 PM 7/9/01 -0000, you wrote: > >she's written. Take "The Ones who walked away from Omelas". The >wonderful city where everything is joy and goodness is balanced by >the dread unknown world beyond, but at the heart of the city is the >essence of evil, the neglected, abused child. And into the dark >unknown wilderness go the very best of the citizens of Omelas, those >who can not accept the child's ransom for their happiness, the >essence of goodness. The story is a beautiful metaphor of the yin- >yang symbol which is often interpreted as meaning that the essence of >darkness is in light and the essence of light is in darkness. I'm >not claiming that Le Guin deliberately set out to write it as such, >but I think she has integrated the principles of Taoism, or at least >certain principles, so thoroughly that they shape the way she sees >the world. If you find "The Ones who walk away from Omelas" interesting, you might want to look at Dostoyevsky's THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV. That's the source of the tale. Ivan, the doubting, cynical, rationalist brother creates that situation in a Christian context and asks Alexis, the brother who is a monk, if he could accept that situation. If I remember correctly, Ivan presents this during the same conversation that he tells the story of "The Grand Inquisitor." -=Fred=- My very bone-ends... Made contact with the icy quilts of deep December... - Buson - email: fredr@gci-net.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 22:35:12 2001 Received: from hp.egroups.com (hp.egroups.com [208.50.99.201]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA27905 for ; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 21:28:37 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-193-994912086-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 12 Jul 2001 04:28:06 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 12 Jul 2001 04:28:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 59896 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2001 04:28:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2001 04:28:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.243) by mta2 with SMTP; 12 Jul 2001 04:28:04 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 11 Jul 2001 21:28:04 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.19 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2001 04:28:04 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.19] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jul 2001 04:28:04.0522 (UTC) FILETIME=[0B0D08A0:01C10A8B] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 16:28:04 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Freedom vs Happiness Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 856f63a6fe7eb21eafac04940c1b07b2 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1725 Le Guin is quite fond of Dostoevsky, the whole idea with the Grand Inquisitor is that you can be free, or happy, but never both. Yevgeny Zamyatin explores this in We, where the protagonist must choose whether to side with the revolutionaries and be free, or be lobotomised, ignorant but happy. The dillema the Grand Inquisitor and Zamyatin posit is explored by Le Guin quite frequently on her way to Utopia. You can definitely see it in Lathe with Orr and in the Dispossed with Shevek, they both face the same dillemas D-530 does in We. Freedom or Happiness. I can't think of any quotes... but I know they are there.. there are places where Le Guin talks about freedom and happiness directly, Can anyone think of any? Jenn >If you find "The Ones who walk away from Omelas" interesting, you might >want to look at Dostoyevsky's THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV. That's the source of >the tale. >Ivan, the doubting, cynical, rationalist brother creates that situation in >a Christian context and asks Alexis, the brother who is a monk, if he could >accept that situation. > >If I remember correctly, Ivan presents this during the same conversation >that he tells the story of "The Grand Inquisitor." > > >-=Fred=- > > My very bone-ends... > Made contact with the icy quilts > of deep December... > - Buson - > >email: fredr@gci-net.com > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 22:48:35 2001 Received: from fl.egroups.com (fl.egroups.com [64.211.240.233]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09015 for ; Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:25:23 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-194-995059523-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2001 21:25:23 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 13 Jul 2001 21:25:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 95512 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2001 21:23:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 13 Jul 2001 21:23:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.121) by mta3 with SMTP; 13 Jul 2001 21:23:37 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.63.48]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Fri, 13 Jul 2001 22:23:34 +0100 Message-ID: <3B4F6650.337F729A@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <9idfsm+t33u@eGroups.com> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 22:21:20 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Taoism and Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3593c2b07bd4f6723ae37e001b2cc07a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2265 judyldubois@aol.com wrote quite a bit which I wanted to quibble over, but in particular: > Take "The Ones who walked away from Omelas".... The story is a beautiful > metaphor of the yin- > yang symbol which is often interpreted as meaning that the essence of > darkness is in light and the essence of light is in darkness. 'The Ones who Walk Away from Omelas' is not a metaphor for anything. It lays out a moral choice and says that most people would do the wrong thing, but that a few brave souls would choose right. Perhaps the story is a parable, intended to exhort us to choose right. My tai chi instructors tell me that it is properly called the Tai Chi, meaning Supreme Ultimate, and it depicts the cyclical nature of all things. Rather off topic, but the following inequality gives an approximate rendering of it, apparently. (A very mangled seven-bit version of it (for which no apologies, Vin) - complain loud enough and you can have some HTML or a jpg.) ( cos( - r) - sin )( r^4 - 2r^2cos(2 + 2.4) + 0.9 ) + (0.62r)^1000 < 0 All of the messages over the past few days have been most interesting, but I definitely have a poorer understanding of taoism than I did before. Does anybody else feel that the ambiguities which come with translating from Chinese are part of the problem? Despite my muddled brain, I think I could defend 'The Fountains' (1960, collected in 'Orsinian Tales') as being taoist. The protagonist doesn't do anything - "Only by walking down a path could one achieve one's absence?" - , the world hasn't changed, but his world is completely changed. He is now "a king and a thief". Inaction is action. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 22:53:26 2001 Received: from jj.egroups.com (jj.egroups.com [208.50.144.82]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA14904 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:01:03 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-195-995216462-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2001 17:01:02 -0000 X-Sender: Judyldubois@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 15 Jul 2001 17:01:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 26105 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2001 17:01:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 15 Jul 2001 17:01:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m06.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.161) by mta2 with SMTP; 15 Jul 2001 17:01:01 -0000 Received: from Judyldubois@aol.com by imo-m06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.7.) id r.72.d0a79c9 (4246) for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <72.d0a79c9.2883264b@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 115 From: judyldubois@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:00:59 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Taoism and Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: c12b4641d44e4d5417875c61a98dba64 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2456 Julien Evola translated the Tao-Te-King into Italian in the 30's and wrote a very interesting introduction explaining the difficulties he encountered. We often forget that the Tao-Te-King was written with ideograms, which should not be confused with words. Evola explained that ideograms are (pardon the vocabulary Rodney) metaphors that have many possible meanings. The same sign can mean center, yellow, royal, or the Emperor. Which is quite logical to the Chinese who considered their emperor as the ruler of the Middle Kingdom, which was the center of the world, and yellow was the imperial color. Evola went on to explain that the possibility of several different translations depending on which interpretation was chosen, which westerners tend to see as a source of confusion and error, was seen by the Chinese as a positive aspect, allowing each reader to evolve his own personal interpretation. The Tao-Te-King was not considered as religious doctrine, but rather as a source of inspiration for meditation. Perhaps it is the very wealth of its possible meanings that has allowed it to survive for so long and to continue to inspire people like Le Guin. When I said that "The Ones Who Walked Away From Omelas" was a metaphor for the yin-yang sign, I meant it is possible to represent the story with the sign. The white part is Omelas, the black circle in the white part represents the child, the black part is the rest of the world, and the white circle in the black represents those who walk away. Of course I did not mean that Le Guin intentionally planned it that way. It just works out. Which probably says more about how universal the yin-yang sign is than anything about that particular story. To the question is Taoism an influence or is Le Guin trying to teach Taoist principles, I'd be very wary about trying to answer either way. Le Guin tends to do things her own way, then discover that her own way involves something which is known as "Science Fiction" or "Taoism" or "Jungian archetypes". She once said that she wrote science fiction without knowing what it was until editors told her she was writing science fiction. After "A Wizard of Earthsea" many people remarked upon her use of Jungian archetypes, but until then she was not familiar with the concept and had not studied Jung. She did read Jung and found that many of his ideas suited her, that is, there were some universal principles involved with which she was in complete harmony. I suspect that in a similar way she was probably a Taoist before she learned anything about Taoism, and when she did discover it, the basic principles were so congenial to her inherent world view that she adopted it. I have to apologize (it must be contagious) for misquoting her, by the way. I was quoting by memory around three o'clock in the morning, What she actually said was that she was an unorthodox Taoist. Which I take to mean that she takes from Taoism anything that suits her and doesn't worry about the rest. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 22:53:26 2001 Received: from ck.egroups.com (ck.egroups.com [208.50.144.69]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA16544 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 11:35:31 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-196-995222130-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ck.egroups.com with NNFMP; 15 Jul 2001 18:35:30 -0000 X-Sender: dsalo@softhome.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 15 Jul 2001 18:35:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 39579 invoked from network); 15 Jul 2001 18:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 15 Jul 2001 18:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mendota.terracom.net) (208.170.71.129) by mta3 with SMTP; 15 Jul 2001 18:35:28 -0000 Received: from [208.170.95.88] (3C2-88.terracom.net [208.170.95.88]) by mendota.terracom.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14854 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:41:59 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dsalo@pop.softhome.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <72.d0a79c9.2883264b@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: David Salo MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 13:41:29 -0600 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Taoism and Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 5f177dba4fd6b7e3808e249becbb1ac1 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2461 Judy L. Dubois wrote: >Julien Evola translated the Tao-Te-King into Italian in the 30's and wrote a >very interesting introduction explaining the difficulties he encountered. We >often forget that the Tao-Te-King was written with ideograms, which should >not be confused with words. Evola explained that ideograms are (pardon the >vocabulary Rodney) metaphors that have many possible meanings. This is a common misunderstanding about the Chinese writing system. I will try to briefly explain how the system works: Each character does in fact stand for a word. Occasionally a character does not stand for a whole word, but a part of a word (in most of these cases, a two-syllable word where each character represents one syllable). But since most Chinese words are one syllable, most characters represent both one syllable and one word. And each word, of course, has two sides: sound and meaning. In most Chinese characters, both sound and meaning have some representation. Part of the character is the "phonetic", which (ideally) represents the sound of the word. I say ideally for two reasons: one is that, even in the beginning of the script, similar sounding syllables could be assigned the same phonetic. The other is that, over time the sound of Chinese has changed, and two characters which originally were pronounced with nearly the same sound now have very different sounds. But still, in general, a set of characters having the same phonetic will have the same or similar sounds. The other part of the character is the "radical", which provides something of the meaning of the word. It does not provide the whole meaning, but merely indexes the word as being part of a general category, e.g. plants, wild animals, domestic animals, persons, various kinds of manufactured items, and so on. This helps distinguish two words which have the same phonetic from each other. Strictly speaking, this should be called the "determinative", and not the "radical", since "radical" is now a somewhat artificial concept that includes non-semantic elements of the character, and is primarily useful for indexing Chinese dictionaries. However, to a great extent the categories of "determinative" and "radical" overlap. There is a small but important set of words which have no phonetic, but only a semantic sign. E.g. the words for sun, moon, eye, tree and so on. Their form usually descends from a picture of the objects described. Because of these few words, Chinese has often, but mistakenly, been called ideographic. The existence of homonymy in Chinese is no different from that in any other language. The use of one word with multiple and extended meanings is no different from the use of, say, English "head" to mean a physical head, the upper part of some structure, a leader, a teacher, and so on. We are usually not confused as to these meanings when we encounter the word "head" in a sentence because we can distinguish them in context. (E.g. "John asked to go to the head" means one thing at a private school, and quite another thing on shipboard!). We certainly do not simultaneously superimpose all the possible meanings of a word, and neither did the Chinese. Problems arise, not from the language itself, or the character system (which often helps to distinguish between homonyms), but from the compressed syntax of ancient Chinese. This compression was even more pronounced in poetic texts. For instance, the first line of the Tao Te Ching -- of which 101 translations can be found wherever you look -- means literally something like "Way can way not usual way". This is intentionally cryptic, and probably plays on multiple meanings of the word "way" (tao) not to mention "usual" (or "constant"). For this reason, I (personally) would not attempt to translate the Tao Te Ching without recourse to a Chinese commentary on it (of which there are several). It does not help the text much to remove it from the context in which it was created. /\ WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS \/ WRAIQS NU IST <> David Salo <> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 22:55:32 2001 Received: from fk.egroups.com (fk.egroups.com [64.211.240.232]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA27069 for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:55:24 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-197-995259319-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2001 04:55:19 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 16 Jul 2001 04:55:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 9592 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2001 04:55:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Jul 2001 04:55:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.8.148) by mta1 with SMTP; 16 Jul 2001 04:55:18 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:55:18 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.18 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 04:55:17 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.18] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2001 04:55:18.0159 (UTC) FILETIME=[826D41F0:01C10DB3] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:55:17 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Taoism and Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: dd318668f8d5bc389c0350d2b9d05694 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2518 >Despite my muddled brain, I think I could defend 'The Fountains' (1960, >collected in 'Orsinian Tales') as being taoist. The protagonist doesn't do >anything - "Only by walking down a path could one achieve one's absence?" >-, the world hasn't changed, but his world is completely changed. He is now >"a king and a thief". Inaction is action. > I like this, it reminds me of the way Le Guin says the only way to 'get to' utopia is to go backwards. That's the only real understanding of Taoism that have.. that it is a non-rational path and that you can achieve more with inaction than force. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 22:58:47 2001 Received: from hh.egroups.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA15578 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 11:13:34 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-198-995307184-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2001 18:13:04 -0000 X-Sender: oneilltribe2001@yahoo.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 16 Jul 2001 18:13:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 43809 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2001 18:12:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Jul 2001 18:12:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ei.egroups.com) (10.1.2.114) by mta1 with SMTP; 16 Jul 2001 18:12:27 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: oneilltribe2001@yahoo.co.uk Received: from [10.1.10.67] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2001 18:12:26 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9ivaq8+rce8@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 172.151.221.184 From: oneilltribe2001@yahoo.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 18:12:24 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Introduction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 08457bc4209bc6ed3e8869536689903c Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2653 Hi all, I am Nicki from the UK. Forgive my clumsiness I am very new to using EGroups. I must say what a pleasant revelation it was to find an Ursula Le Guin group. I have only read the Earthsea Quartet up to now. I first read them when I was at school and I re read them perhaps once a year. I would be grateful if anyone could advise me which of her books to read next. Thanks for your patience with an excited newbie. Nicki :) To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 23:00:04 2001 Received: from ho.egroups.com (ho.egroups.com [64.211.240.236]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA19980 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:24:37 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-199-995311476-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2001 19:24:36 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 16 Jul 2001 19:24:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 30207 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2001 19:24:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 16 Jul 2001 19:24:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-2.enteract.com) (207.229.143.4) by mta1 with SMTP; 16 Jul 2001 19:24:35 -0000 Received: from [207.229.172.91] (207-229-142-132.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.132]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094DE43B4F for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:24:27 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9ivaq8+rce8@eGroups.com> References: <9ivaq8+rce8@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:19:22 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Introduction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 14777bbcee38430e687bebbf86958602 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2699 >I would be grateful if anyone could advise me which of her books to >read next. Thanks for your patience with an excited newbie. Hi Nicki, welcome to the group. Being an Earthsea enthusiast, if you haven't already you'll of course want to read the latest Earthsea book, the new story collection Tales from Earthsea. And if you're ready to veer into Science Fiction, my standard first-book recommendations are The Left Hand of Darkness and The Lathe of Heaven. To everyone: Sorry I haven't been able to weigh in on the discussions as much as I would like to lately. Let's just say I have "workflow" issues, or perhaps Heaven the Equalizer issues. But you all are doing an admirable job of picking up the slack, so please carry on. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 23:03:45 2001 Received: from fh.egroups.com (fh.egroups.com [208.50.144.71]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA11026 for ; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:56:41 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-200-995338596-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by fh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2001 02:56:37 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 17 Jul 2001 02:56:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 12266 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2001 02:56:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Jul 2001 02:56:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.148) by mta2 with SMTP; 17 Jul 2001 02:56:28 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 16 Jul 2001 19:56:28 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.12 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 02:56:28 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.12] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jul 2001 02:56:28.0799 (UTC) FILETIME=[136900F0:01C10E6C] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:56:28 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Whose Lathe? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a3e24c96a21d46c2fbf63dedbc8b49c5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2849 >To everyone: Sorry I haven't been able to weigh in on the discussions >as much as I would like to lately. Let's just say I have "workflow" >issues, or perhaps Heaven the Equalizer issues. But you all are doing >an admirable job of picking up the slack, so please carry on. > >Dave those who don't will be destroyed by the lathe of heaven.. I found it really interesting, Le Guin's note about the translation of that passage... I like Lathe better than Great Equalizer.. it's a shame it's not correct. (the Lathe hadn't been invented when the Tao Te Ching was written apparently) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 23:05:23 2001 Received: from ho.egroups.com (ho.egroups.com [64.211.240.236]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA16582 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 01:08:31 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-201-995357312-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2001 08:08:32 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 17 Jul 2001 08:08:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 41990 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2001 08:08:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Jul 2001 08:08:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.124) by mta3 with SMTP; 17 Jul 2001 08:08:31 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([194.117.137.115]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:08:28 +0100 Message-ID: <3B53F1F4.8E55067@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <9ivaq8+rce8@eGroups.com> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:06:13 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Introduction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ad25128da680e915b75eef5d81e03ec5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2902 Hi Nicki There are a couple of Earthsea stories, 'The Rule of Names' and 'The Word of Unbinding', which you would find in the collection 'The Wind's Twelve Quarters' - volume one in the edition that I have. As to the novels, you must read 'Malafrena'. chiz chiz rdg To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 23:05:23 2001 Received: from hm.egroups.com (hm.egroups.com [208.50.99.198]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA17205 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 01:47:18 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-202-995359608-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2001 08:46:48 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 17 Jul 2001 08:46:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 35967 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2001 08:46:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 Jul 2001 08:46:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.123) by mta3 with SMTP; 17 Jul 2001 08:46:47 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.63.70]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:46:45 +0100 Message-ID: <3B53FAD4.C656B997@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 09:44:04 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Freedom vs Happiness Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6b356bce3b96e9bf01ce47c62cb8861e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2907 Jenn Martin wrote: > there are places where Le Guin talks about freedom and happiness directly, > Can anyone think > of any? > "Freedom consists in doing what you can do best, your work, what you have to do, doesn't it? It's nothing you have or keep. It is action, it is life itself." 'Malafrena' Panther Granada 1981, pg 37 (7th-from-bottom line) To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 23:11:00 2001 Received: from ck.egroups.com (ck.egroups.com [208.50.144.69]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA12916 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:28:30 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-203-995405309-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ck.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2001 21:28:30 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 17 Jul 2001 21:28:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 82315 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2001 21:28:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Jul 2001 21:28:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 17 Jul 2001 21:28:13 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (fred163.u3.cos.pcisys.net [208.205.225.163]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f6HLSBH28531 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:28:12 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B54BD21.1020201@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:33:05 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: essays vs fiction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 94a37fa45d9ef77fdb241baf0d73dcc3 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3125 Jenn Martin wrote: > Sometimes I think Le Guin writes even better prose than she does > fiction. > Anyone have any favourite essays? I find Le Guin's voice to be different in her nonfiction than it is in her fiction--sharper, harder. It's a pleasant contrast. I don't have a favorite essay, though, because once I start reading an essay in *The Language of Night,* no matter which one I start with, I always end up reading through to the end of the book! And I follow my sidekick around the house saying, "Listen to this," and reading him paragraphs. Fortunately, he likes Le Guin, too, but he still gets a resigned expression on his face whenever he sees me pull that particular book off the shelf. --Grey To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 23:11:47 2001 Received: from hn.egroups.com (hn.egroups.com [208.50.99.199]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA14403 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:52:52 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-204-995406740-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2001 21:52:21 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 17 Jul 2001 21:52:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 42734 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2001 21:52:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Jul 2001 21:52:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta3 with SMTP; 17 Jul 2001 21:52:11 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (fred163.u3.cos.pcisys.net [208.205.225.163]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f6HLq6H20153 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:52:10 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B54C2BB.2040608@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <9idfsm+t33u@eGroups.com> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:56:59 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Taoism and Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: d210b7ed3f0cb22a2e8436abed2add34 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3136 judyldubois@aol.com wrote: > The Left Hand of Darkness gets its very title > from the concept of yin and yang. Left as opposed to right, darkness > as opposed to light, female as opposed to male, and underlying all > opposing pairs a fundamental harmony and unity, the Tao. This is why, even though _Lathe of Heaven_ may be more explicitly Taoist, *nods to Dave*, I find that _Left Hand of Darkness_ "feels" more Taoist to me. The climate has such an impact in this book. It's funny--everyone comments on how Le Guin's handling of gender makes the story so powerful. For me, however, the climate of Gethen itself is just as important. It exerts powerful pressure on the way the story develops. When Genly and Estraven begin their trek across the frozen waste, the extreme cold narrows their world down to the basics. It's as if Le Guin is able to strip away every extraneous detail and show how each of them acts directly from his/her basic character. When one is very cold, there are only certain things one can do. Sometimes one must move; sometimes one must rest. This idea of "active waiting" seems to me to be a basic component of the Tao. Whenever I re-read the book, I feel cold all over again; it's a bracing feeling, like austerity and discipline. Grey To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 23:11:47 2001 Received: from c9.egroups.com (c9.egroups.com [208.50.99.230]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA14608 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 14:56:36 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-205-995406966-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2001 21:56:06 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 17 Jul 2001 21:56:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 30208 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2001 21:55:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Jul 2001 21:55:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 17 Jul 2001 21:55:21 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (fred163.u3.cos.pcisys.net [208.205.225.163]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f6HLtJH22974 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 15:55:19 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B54C37C.2040605@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <9ivaq8+rce8@eGroups.com> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:00:12 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Introduction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6206dc575a98bac666e18ea9c372d0bb Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3138 oneilltribe2001@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > I would be grateful if anyone could advise me which of her books to > read next. Thanks for your patience with an excited newbie. > Nicki, I'd recommend _Left Hand of Darkness_ if you haven't read it yet. While the Earthsea books remain closest to my heart, _Left Hand of Darkness_ is the book that "blew off the top of my head." Grey To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 23:11:47 2001 Received: from hj.egroups.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA19869 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:26:45 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-206-995412374-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Jul 2001 23:26:14 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 17 Jul 2001 23:26:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 72928 invoked from network); 17 Jul 2001 23:26:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Jul 2001 23:26:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.220) by mta2 with SMTP; 17 Jul 2001 23:26:12 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 16:26:12 -0700 Received: from 139.80.123.34 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 23:26:12 GMT X-Originating-IP: [139.80.123.34] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jul 2001 23:26:12.0517 (UTC) FILETIME=[DDEEE550:01C10F17] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:26:12 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: essays vs fiction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 15340910195c400e78f8d0f0a73d89e0 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3166 >I find Le Guin's voice to be different in her nonfiction than it is in >her fiction--sharper, harder. It's a pleasant contrast. I feel that too, she's a bit more didactic, because it's her own voice she's using, but I also like the way she is self-deprecating, the way she represents herself as an old crone. I like that Le Guin can be so tongue in cheek, it comes across in the Pandora pieces in Always Coming Home as well. I prefer Dancing on the Edge of the World to Language of the Night and I think it is because I appreciate the sense of humour she had during this period, I also like her non-fiction explorations of utopia around this time, they compliment her fiction so well. I appreciate your sidekick comment especially, Grey, because I know what it's like to be that resigned ear *grins* I have a partner that follows me round reading from his favourite books at length. It's what it's all about though, isn't it. Jenn _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 18 23:04:56 2001 Received: from ef.egroups.com (ef.egroups.com [64.211.240.229]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA07482 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 06:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-208-995464038-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ef.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2001 13:47:19 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 18 Jul 2001 13:47:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 55212 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2001 13:46:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 Jul 2001 13:46:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 Jul 2001 13:46:13 -0000 Received: from vin.steel-tango.com ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29471 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:46:12 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010717203917.00acf880@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3B54C2BB.2040608@pcisys.net> References: <9idfsm+t33u@eGroups.com> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2001 20:45:16 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Taoism and Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 7f1692f78493171f030d996cb64491d7 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 91 At 03:56 PM 7/17/01 -0700, you wrote: >judyldubois@aol.com wrote: > >... Sometimes one must >move; sometimes one must rest. This idea of "active waiting" seems to >me to be a basic component of the Tao. Whenever I re-read the book, I >feel cold all over again; it's a bracing feeling, like austerity and >discipline. The very term "active waiting" seems to be energized with meaning by the power of its never-to-be-resolved-yet-OK-with-that dialectic. Is this part of the essence of Tao? Interesting that Lathe actually contains a similar term -- "effective dreaming"... vin ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Jul 17 23:26:04 2001 Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [208.50.144.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA24964 for ; Tue, 17 Jul 2001 18:42:24 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-207-995420537-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2001 01:42:17 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 18 Jul 2001 01:42:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 24626 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2001 01:40:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Jul 2001 01:40:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.125) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 Jul 2001 01:40:05 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.66.232]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Wed, 18 Jul 2001 02:39:59 +0100 Message-ID: <3B54E867.F7EFAA20@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <72.d0a79c9.2883264b@aol.com> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 02:37:43 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Taoism and Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 85bb06216cca9460914112ae39a65fb4 judyldubois@aol.com wrote: > When I said that "The Ones Who Walked Away From Omelas" was a metaphor for > the yin-yang sign, I meant it is possible to represent the story with the > sign. So does the story stand for the sign, or the sign for the story? > The white part is Omelas, the black circle in the white part represents the > child, the black part is the rest of the world, and the white circle in the > black represents those who walk away. Why is Omelas white, and the rest of the world black? Surely you cannot mean that Omelas is a good place. And the world beyond Omelas is hardly mentioned in the story so how can you assign badness to it on so little information? (Three sentences: "The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible that it does not exist"). Is the scapegoat-child bad? Or does the child symbolising / being-symbolised-by the black dot mean that the child comes from the outside world? If one sets aside the traditional Western connotations of the colours (White equals Good, Black equals Bad) and thinks only of the concepts that all processes are cyclical, that each thing will give way to its opposite, and that each thing contains the seed of its opposite, one still cannot assign places to the various elements of the story. chiz chiz rdg To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 18 23:07:10 2001 Received: from ei.egroups.com (ei.egroups.com [64.211.240.237]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA09969 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:22:11 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-212-995469731-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2001 15:22:11 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 18 Jul 2001 15:22:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 89477 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2001 15:22:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Jul 2001 15:22:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 Jul 2001 15:22:05 -0000 Received: from vin.steel-tango.com ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10283 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:22:01 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010718111627.026a3920@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3B55B478.4050309@pcisys.net> References: <72.d0a79c9.2883264b@aol.com> <3B54E867.F7EFAA20@virgin.net> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 11:22:19 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 7b011f019d1c3c34eb3cd50ef2093d2a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 129 Please do -- I don't think I'm the only one who has not read the entire cannon. (apologies, though, if I am...) v >In my edition of _The Wind's Twelve Quarters_, Le Guin writes a forward >to this story, explaining the background for it and how she came to >write it. It's an interesting forward--has anyone else here read it? >I'll gladly summarize it, but only if I'm not reinventing the ansible, >so to speak. > >--Grey > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 18 23:06:14 2001 Received: from ck.egroups.com (ck.egroups.com [208.50.144.69]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA09198 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:58:01 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-209-995468278-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ck.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2001 14:57:58 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 18 Jul 2001 14:57:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 1603 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2001 14:56:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Jul 2001 14:56:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 Jul 2001 14:56:18 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (gilligan107.pci1.cos.pcisys.net [216.229.35.107]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f6IEuGt25564 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:56:16 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B55B2C5.4070002@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <9idfsm+t33u@eGroups.com> <5.1.0.14.1.20010717203917.00acf880@pop.netmeg.net> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:01:09 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re:Taoism and Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 01aa65fda18687d8dcc50cbbd9089fbd Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 117 Vin Urbanowski wrote: > >... Sometimes one must > >move; sometimes one must rest. This idea of "active waiting" seems to > >me to be a basic component of the Tao. Whenever I re-read the book, I > >feel cold all over again; it's a bracing feeling, like austerity and > >discipline. > The very term "active waiting" seems to be energized with meaning by the > power of its never-to-be-resolved-yet-OK-with-that dialectic. Is this > part > of the essence of Tao? > > Interesting that Lathe actually contains a similar term -- "effective > dreaming"... That's right! Another favorite quotation of mine is from Novalis. He says, "Our life is no dream, but it ought to become one, and perhaps will." Walking backwards into utopia? --Grey > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 18 23:06:14 2001 Received: from ho.egroups.com (ho.egroups.com [64.211.240.236]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA09427 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:04:36 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-210-995468670-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2001 15:04:33 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 18 Jul 2001 15:04:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 63639 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2001 15:03:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 Jul 2001 15:03:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 Jul 2001 15:03:32 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (gilligan107.pci1.cos.pcisys.net [216.229.35.107]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f6IF3Ut02237 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:03:30 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B55B478.4050309@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <72.d0a79c9.2883264b@aol.com> <3B54E867.F7EFAA20@virgin.net> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:08:24 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 8608aead7516c2e7eb568f3670ad776d Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 122 Roddy Graham wrote: > > > judyldubois@aol.com wrote: > > > When I said that "The Ones Who Walked Away From Omelas" was a > metaphor for > > the yin-yang sign, I meant it is possible to represent the story > with the > > sign. > > So does the story stand for the sign, or the sign for the story? > > > The white part is Omelas, the black circle in the white part > represents the > > child, the black part is the rest of the world, and the white > circle in the > > black represents those who walk away. > > Why is Omelas white, and the rest of the world black? Surely you > cannot mean > that Omelas is a good place. And the world beyond Omelas is hardly > mentioned in > the story so how can you assign badness to it on so little > information? (Three > sentences: "The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable > to most of > us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is > possible that > it does not exist"). Is the scapegoat-child bad? Or does the child > symbolising > / being-symbolised-by the black dot mean that the child comes from the > outside > world? > > If one sets aside the traditional Western connotations of the colours > (White > equals Good, Black equals Bad) and thinks only of the concepts that all > processes are cyclical, that each thing will give way to its opposite, > and that > each thing contains the seed of its opposite, one still cannot assign > places to > the various elements of the story. In my edition of _The Wind's Twelve Quarters_, Le Guin writes a forward to this story, explaining the background for it and how she came to write it. It's an interesting forward--has anyone else here read it? I'll gladly summarize it, but only if I'm not reinventing the ansible, so to speak. --Grey To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 18 23:06:14 2001 Received: from hk.egroups.com (n4.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.54]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA09547 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-211-995468861-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2001 15:08:15 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 18 Jul 2001 15:07:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 45596 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2001 15:06:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Jul 2001 15:06:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 Jul 2001 15:06:40 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (gilligan107.pci1.cos.pcisys.net [216.229.35.107]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f6IF6dt04852 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:06:39 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B55B535.2080704@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:11:33 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: essays vs fiction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 4a70dddc42d41442aba5d4f679949c2b Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 123 Jenn Martin wrote: > > >I find Le Guin's voice to be different in her nonfiction than it is in > >her fiction--sharper, harder. It's a pleasant contrast. > > I feel that too, she's a bit more didactic, because it's her own voice > she's > using, but I also like the way she is self-deprecating, the way she > represents herself as an old crone. Actually, I rather get the feeling that she's proud of being a crone. Certainly, in the positive worlds she's envisioned, a crone has a highly honored and respected place in society. --Grey > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 18 23:07:10 2001 Received: from ef.egroups.com (ef.egroups.com [64.211.240.229]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA11144 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:59:44 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-213-995471908-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ef.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2001 15:59:44 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 18 Jul 2001 15:58:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 94171 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2001 15:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Jul 2001 15:56:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 18 Jul 2001 15:56:52 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (gilligan107.pci1.cos.pcisys.net [216.229.35.107]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f6IFukt26008 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:56:47 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B55C0F5.8050304@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <72.d0a79c9.2883264b@aol.com> <3B54E867.F7EFAA20@virgin.net> <5.1.0.14.1.20010718111627.026a3920@pop.netmeg.net> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:01:41 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 8bc6c20f79add88006ae133cf5344559 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 143 Vin Urbanowski wrote: > Please do -- I don't think I'm the only one who has not read the entire > cannon. (apologies, though, if I am...) Ack! No! Not another apology! And, no, I haven't read the entire cannon. At least not in all its various editions, with accompanying forwards, notes, etc. And I am forced to admit, I could not finish Malafrena. But I do own it, so maybe someday... Anyway, the forward to "Omelas:" Le Guin says that she was indirectly influenced by Dostoyevsky's _Brothers K_, but that she was directly influenced by an essay by William James. In the essay, James says, "Or if the hypothesis were offered us of a world in which Messrs. Fourier's and Bellamy's and Morris's utopias should all be outdone, and millions kept permanently happy on the one simple condition that a certain lost soul on the far-off edge of things should lead a life of lonely torment, what except a specifical and independent sort of emotion can it be which would make us immediately feel, even though an impulse arose within us to clutch at the happiness so offered, how hideous a thing would be its enjoyment when deliberately accepted as the fruit of such a bargain?" Later in the same essay, James says that ideals are "the probable causes of future experience." Le Guin says that these two ideas strongly impacted both "Omelas" and her entire motivation for writing science fiction in general. She does go on to say that she didn't read James and then sit down to write "Omelas." To directly quote her, "I sat down and started a story, just because I felt like it, with nothing but the word "Omelas" in mind. It came from a road sign: Salem (Oregon) backwards. Don't you read road signs backwards? POTS. WOLS nerdlihc. Ocsicnarf Nas . . . Salem equals schelomo equals salaam equals Peace. Melas. O melas. Homme helas. "Where do you get your ideas from, Ms Le Guin?" From forgetting Dostoyevsky and reading road signs backwards, naturally. Where else?" efenblide, Grey To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 18 23:10:35 2001 Received: from mr.egroups.com (mr.egroups.com [208.50.144.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA28767 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:15:10 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-214-995490909-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mr.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2001 21:15:09 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 18 Jul 2001 21:15:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 41393 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2001 21:11:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 18 Jul 2001 21:11:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.119) by mta2 with SMTP; 18 Jul 2001 21:11:52 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 14:11:49 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.12 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 21:11:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.12] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jul 2001 21:11:49.0726 (UTC) FILETIME=[428C5FE0:01C10FCE] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:11:49 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] crones Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: dcec3978f0d52cd14664c998971f55b2 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 246 >Actually, I rather get the feeling that she's proud of being a crone. >Certainly, in the positive worlds she's envisioned, a crone has a highly >honored and respected place in society. > >--Grey Oh! absolutely! I didn't mean anything else, sorry for the misunderstanding. Jenn _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 18 23:10:36 2001 Received: from mv.egroups.com (mv.egroups.com [208.50.144.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA04499 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 15:50:21 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-215-995496620-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2001 22:50:20 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 18 Jul 2001 22:50:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 24207 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2001 22:18:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Jul 2001 22:18:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 18 Jul 2001 22:18:44 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (fred173.u3.cos.pcisys.net [208.205.225.173]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f6IMHVI28408 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:17:34 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B561A2D.1090401@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:22:21 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] crones Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 63ba08a022a29658e7c645348e46d45a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 269 Jenn Martin wrote: > > >Actually, I rather get the feeling that she's proud of being a crone. > >Certainly, in the positive worlds she's envisioned, a crone has a highly > >honored and respected place in society. > > > >--Grey > > > Oh! absolutely! I didn't mean anything else, sorry for the > misunderstanding. No misunderstanding. I did sound testy, didn't I? Unintentional. I apologize for making you think you should apologize. *grin* Grey > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 18 23:12:34 2001 Received: from ml.egroups.com (ml.egroups.com [208.50.144.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA06437 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:28:23 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-216-995498901-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2001 23:28:22 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@impop.bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 18 Jul 2001 23:28:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 79446 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2001 23:19:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Jul 2001 23:19:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4ve.mailsrvcs.net) (206.46.170.25) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 Jul 2001 23:19:38 -0000 Received: from zion.mailbox.bellatlantic.net (adsl-64-222-83-100.burlvt.adsl.bellatlantic.net [64.222.83.100]) by smtp4ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA55388587 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:19:37 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010718183031.02016720@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Sender: jdawley@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <72.d0a79c9.2883264b@aol.com> X-eGroups-From: "Janice E. Dawley" From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:23:17 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Taoism and Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 4ed11a5b7d03345857f2682db08def32 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 278 At 01:00 PM 7/15/01 -0400, judyldubois@aol.com wrote: >After "A Wizard of Earthsea" many people remarked upon her use of Jungian >archetypes, but until then she was not familiar with the concept and had >not studied Jung. She did read Jung and found that many of his ideas suited >her, that is, there were some universal principles involved with which she >was in complete harmony. I suspect that in a similar way she was probably >a Taoist before she learned anything about Taoism, and when she did >discover it, the basic principles were so congenial to her inherent world >view that she adopted it. Actually, Le Guin read the *Tao Te Ching* early on and was much affected by it. Once again, I pull *Across the Wounded Galaxies* off my bookshelf to quote Le Guin: "The old Paul Carus translation of the *Tao Te Ching* was always on the downstairs bookshelf when I was a kid, and I saw it in my father's hands a lot. He was an anthropologist and an atheist; I think this book satisfied what other people would call his religious beliefs. He clearly got a great lifelong pleasure out of this book, and when you notice a parent doing something like this it's bound to have some effect on you. So when I was twelve years old I had a look at the thing and I reacted the same way my father had -- I loved it. By the time I was in my teens I had thought about it quite a lot. I was never in the position of most kids in having to break with any church. My father was quite strongly antireligious -- his generation of anthropologists more or less had to be. He was respectful toward all religious people, but he counted religions as essentially superstitious. There was a certain feeling among intellectuals of my dad's generation that the human race was done with religion, that religions belonged to the past. That, of course, has not proved to be true." Interesting. I do think that the influence of Taoism can be seen in most of Le Guin's work. *The Left Hand of Darkness*, *The Dispossessed*, all of *Earthsea*, *The Lathe of Heaven*, *The Telling*, etc, etc. But I think in this quote she makes another important point about her own work -- the longing for a sense of the sacred, divorced from the hierarchy of organized religion as we know it. I am re-reading the "Stone Telling" sections of *Always Coming Home* for a book discussion on the FemSF-Lit list and I am struck once again by the reverence for all things natural, as North Owl climbs the mountain and says "heya" to nearly every plant, animal and rock that she sees. I don't think this can be called Taoist, but it is an interesting element to add to the mix. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Radiohead -- Amnesiac "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Jul 18 23:12:34 2001 Received: from mk.egroups.com (mk.egroups.com [208.50.144.76]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA06799 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 16:35:03 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-217-995499298-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Jul 2001 23:35:02 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@impop.bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 18 Jul 2001 23:34:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 65647 invoked from network); 18 Jul 2001 23:28:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Jul 2001 23:28:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp7ve.mailsrvcs.net) (206.46.170.28) by mta2 with SMTP; 18 Jul 2001 23:28:45 -0000 Received: from zion.mailbox.bellatlantic.net (adsl-64-222-83-100.burlvt.adsl.bellatlantic.net [64.222.83.100]) by smtp7ve.mailsrvcs.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA44759571 for ; Wed, 18 Jul 2001 23:28:44 GMT Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010718192359.02011ec0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Sender: jdawley@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: X-eGroups-From: "Janice E. Dawley" From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 19:32:24 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] crones Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 85068092dc4b94bc39fc0fa23c391dae Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 280 At 09:11 AM 7/19/01 +1200, Grey Walker wrote: >Actually, I rather get the feeling that she's proud of being a crone. Speaking of crones, while reading *Always Coming Home* today I came across a sentence that made me laugh delightedly: "My grandmother got drunk and disorderly, and spent the night in the barns, gambling." That's the kind of crone I want to be... at least once in a while, while celebrating the Wine, say. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Radiohead -- Amnesiac "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Jul 19 20:43:59 2001 Received: from hp.egroups.com (hp.egroups.com [208.50.99.201]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA22772 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 06:58:15 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-219-995551065-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2001 13:57:45 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 19 Jul 2001 13:57:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 70427 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2001 13:56:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Jul 2001 13:56:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2001 13:56:48 -0000 Received: from vin.steel-tango.com ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02837 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:56:45 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010718202603.02697bf0@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3B55C0F5.8050304@pcisys.net> References: <72.d0a79c9.2883264b@aol.com> <3B54E867.F7EFAA20@virgin.net> <5.1.0.14.1.20010718111627.026a3920@pop.netmeg.net> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:38:49 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 262945149ae28f958a6ddcb7c3eacdfe Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 73 Thanks, Grey, for the summary. To be honest, I haven't even heard of Omelas. But her derivation of the title which you shared here was marvelous. There was some talk on this board a while ago about the stimulation and delight in words taken by UKL and Tolkein. Your example helps me to appreciate that (earlier) discussion even more. Regarding James' hypothesis: Isn't the deal he describes -- that one individual might pay in misery and suffering for ths gifts of joy offeredto others -- precisely the core of Christian mythology? And even of Christian practice -- monks living lives of prayer and abstention and work in order to balance out the sin of the world so humanity might know the gift of God's grace ? Is this what Omelas is about? Is this my next self-assigned reading? At 10:01 AM 7/18/01 -0700, you wrote: >Vin Urbanowski wrote: > > > Please do -- I don't think I'm the only one who has not read the entire > > cannon. (apologies, though, if I am...) > >Ack! No! Not another apology! And, no, I haven't read the entire >cannon. At least not in all its various editions, with accompanying >forwards, notes, etc. And I am forced to admit, I could not finish >Malafrena. But I do own it, so maybe someday... > >Anyway, the forward to "Omelas:" > >Le Guin says that she was indirectly influenced by Dostoyevsky's >_Brothers K_, but that she was directly influenced by an essay by >William James. In the essay, James says, "Or if the hypothesis were >offered us of a world in which Messrs. Fourier's and Bellamy's and >Morris's utopias should all be outdone, and millions kept permanently >happy on the one simple condition that a certain lost soul on the >far-off edge of things should lead a life of lonely torment, what except >a specifical and independent sort of emotion can it be which would make >us immediately feel, even though an impulse arose within us to clutch at >the happiness so offered, how hideous a thing would be its enjoyment >when deliberately accepted as the fruit of such a bargain?" Later in >the same essay, James says that ideals are "the probable causes of >future experience." Le Guin says that these two ideas strongly impacted >both "Omelas" and her entire motivation for writing science fiction in >general. > >She does go on to say that she didn't read James and then sit down to >write "Omelas." To directly quote her, "I sat down and started a >story, just because I felt like it, with nothing but the word "Omelas" >in mind. It came from a road sign: Salem (Oregon) backwards. Don't you >read road signs backwards? POTS. WOLS nerdlihc. Ocsicnarf Nas . . . >Salem equals schelomo equals salaam equals Peace. Melas. O melas. >Homme helas. "Where do you get your ideas from, Ms Le Guin?" From >forgetting Dostoyevsky and reading road signs backwards, naturally. >Where else?" > >efenblide, Grey > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Jul 19 20:43:59 2001 Received: from fh.egroups.com (fh.egroups.com [208.50.144.71]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA22760 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 06:57:46 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-218-995551065-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2001 13:57:46 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 19 Jul 2001 13:57:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 70612 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2001 13:56:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Jul 2001 13:56:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (63.90.105.8) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2001 13:56:53 -0000 Received: from vin.steel-tango.com ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02842 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:56:48 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010718203943.02691470@pop.netmeg.net> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 20:45:18 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Whose Lathe? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a4f69e500ec6ef9ae6f1de3fed33b16d Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 71 And what is a Lathe, anyway? I know a lathe as a machine tool for making radially symmetrical objects like table legs, screws, gun barrels, wheels, engine parts and the like from wood or metal by turning them on the long axis and cutting them from the side. How is this a tool of destruction or even equalization? Is there some obsolete usage I need to be educated to? Thnks vin At 02:56 PM 7/17/01 +1200, you wrote: > >To everyone: Sorry I haven't been able to weigh in on the discussions > >as much as I would like to lately. Let's just say I have "workflow" > >issues, or perhaps Heaven the Equalizer issues. But you all are doing > >an admirable job of picking up the slack, so please carry on. > > > >Dave > >those who don't will be destroyed by the lathe of heaven.. I found it really >interesting, Le Guin's note about the translation of that passage... I like >Lathe better than Great Equalizer.. it's a shame it's not correct. (the >Lathe hadn't been invented when the Tao Te Ching was written apparently) >_________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Jul 19 20:49:31 2001 Received: from mk.egroups.com (mk.egroups.com [208.50.144.76]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA27585 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:34:17 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-221-995560450-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2001 16:34:10 -0000 X-Sender: iwr77@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 19 Jul 2001 16:34:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 62390 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2001 16:32:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Jul 2001 16:32:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.236) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2001 16:32:57 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:32:56 -0700 Received: from 146.186.159.216 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 16:32:56 GMT X-Originating-IP: [146.186.159.216] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2001 16:32:56.0987 (UTC) FILETIME=[7778C6B0:01C11070] From: "Ian W. Riddell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:32:56 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: d433730b25921d179d00ec7fd1e26cfe Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 152 There is also the difference that Jesus had some will in the matter and knew why he was making his sacrifice. I haven't read "Omelas" in years, but I don't remember the sufferer being at all aware of the reason for their suffering. widdy >From: Grey Walker >Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas >Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:18:50 -0700 > >Vin Urbanowski wrote: > > > Regarding James' hypothesis: Isn't the deal he describes -- that one > > individual might pay in misery and suffering for ths gifts of joy > > offeredto > > others -- precisely the core of Christian mythology? And even of > > Christian > > practice -- monks living lives of prayer and abstention and work in >order > > to balance out the sin of the world so humanity might know the gift of > > God's grace ? Is this what Omelas is about? > >Yeesh! Try to answer that in twenty words or less... I can't speak for >all strands of Christianity, because there are many, from the most >radical and fundamentalist to the most liberal, but I would say in >general that no, that isn't the case. As I have come to understand it, >Christ *is* believed to have suffered the agonies of sin and death so >that humankind could return to right relationship with God, each other, >and the rest of creation, but Christ is not still suffering those >agonies now--quite the reverse. It is believed to be our priviledge and >responsibility to share in Christ's death by "dying to" our selfish >abuse of others and of ourselves and our denial of grace. But then we >are "raised" with Christ to a new life of joy and right relationship, >not just in some idealized heaven, but here and now. And the vast >majority of us aren't monks, monasticism being a whole other issue. > >Actually, as a Christian myself, I identify with the ones who walk away >from Omelas, refusing to live any longer by benefitting from the >suffering of others. Of course, that's a difficult issue for me, as I >struggle with the implications of being an American and having so many >luxuries due to the abuse of the two-thirds world. > >But once again, I reiterate that I am not speaking for all Christians in >their understanding of the death and resurrection of Christ, only for >myself and those that I live in community with. > >--Grey > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Jul 19 20:49:31 2001 Received: from hp.egroups.com (hp.egroups.com [208.50.99.201]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA26740 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:15:12 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-220-995559282-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2001 16:14:42 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 19 Jul 2001 16:14:19 -0000 Received: (qmail 64929 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2001 16:14:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Jul 2001 16:14:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2001 16:13:59 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (fred178.u3.cos.pcisys.net [208.205.225.178]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f6JGDwj19541 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:13:58 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B57167A.8060408@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <72.d0a79c9.2883264b@aol.com> <3B54E867.F7EFAA20@virgin.net> <5.1.0.14.1.20010718111627.026a3920@pop.netmeg.net> <5.1.0.14.1.20010718202603.02697bf0@pop.netmeg.net> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:18:50 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: bfb7b73f2dfb8d2e6789f15c9f90948f Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 144 Vin Urbanowski wrote: > Regarding James' hypothesis: Isn't the deal he describes -- that one > individual might pay in misery and suffering for ths gifts of joy > offeredto > others -- precisely the core of Christian mythology? And even of > Christian > practice -- monks living lives of prayer and abstention and work in order > to balance out the sin of the world so humanity might know the gift of > God's grace ? Is this what Omelas is about? Yeesh! Try to answer that in twenty words or less... I can't speak for all strands of Christianity, because there are many, from the most radical and fundamentalist to the most liberal, but I would say in general that no, that isn't the case. As I have come to understand it, Christ *is* believed to have suffered the agonies of sin and death so that humankind could return to right relationship with God, each other, and the rest of creation, but Christ is not still suffering those agonies now--quite the reverse. It is believed to be our priviledge and responsibility to share in Christ's death by "dying to" our selfish abuse of others and of ourselves and our denial of grace. But then we are "raised" with Christ to a new life of joy and right relationship, not just in some idealized heaven, but here and now. And the vast majority of us aren't monks, monasticism being a whole other issue. Actually, as a Christian myself, I identify with the ones who walk away from Omelas, refusing to live any longer by benefitting from the suffering of others. Of course, that's a difficult issue for me, as I struggle with the implications of being an American and having so many luxuries due to the abuse of the two-thirds world. But once again, I reiterate that I am not speaking for all Christians in their understanding of the death and resurrection of Christ, only for myself and those that I live in community with. --Grey To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Jul 19 20:50:20 2001 Received: from mu.egroups.com (mu.egroups.com [64.211.240.238]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29901 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:23:27 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-223-995563406-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2001 17:23:27 -0000 X-Sender: dorothea@terracom.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 19 Jul 2001 17:23:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 84563 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2001 17:22:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Jul 2001 17:22:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mendota.terracom.net) (208.170.71.129) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2001 17:22:23 -0000 Received: from dorothea (3C2-131.terracom.net [208.170.95.131]) by mendota.terracom.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29360 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:28:53 -0500 (CDT) To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010718203943.02691470@pop.netmeg.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Dorothea Salo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 12:21:43 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] Whose Lathe? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: e6723fc0697a8f3b28b329e3bff954c6 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 175 > How is this a tool of destruction or even equalization? Is there some > obsolete usage I need to be educated to? No, I think you've hit it -- but the idea is that the lathe (plus the cutting tool) is instrumental to smoothing out the item being turned. A subtle point: the lathe does not actually *do* the smoothing, merely *enables* it. Like George Orr, it is basically passive, a tool rather than an actor. > Regarding James' hypothesis: Isn't the deal he describes -- that one > individual might pay in misery and suffering for ths gifts of joy offeredto > others -- precisely the core of Christian mythology? And even of Christian > practice -- monks living lives of prayer and abstention and work in order > to balance out the sin of the world so humanity might know the gift of > God's grace ? Is this what Omelas is about? After a fashion. It's mostly about the other side of the equation -- not the monks, but the non-monks. Imagine me as a Christian for a moment (yes, you'd have to imagine). I can look at these monks who have taken on the burden of balancing out my sin, and I can: accept that and go on sinning, try to be sinless to relieve them of the burden insofar as in me lies -- or go be a monk (okay, nun) myself. _Omelas_ has the added wrinkle that the burden falls on a subject who is never given the chance to accept or reject it. Monks at least choose to be what they are and do what they do, understanding the bargain they're making. (Sometimes less clear in the case of nuns, but let's not complicate things.) Monks also merit great reward after death; the subject in _Omelas_ cannot be given any reward, ever, as the "trade" would then be invalidated. The ethical puzzle is a little less easy to solve. > Is this my next self-assigned reading? It's a good story, and not the worst ethical compass one could choose, either, IMO. By the way, I'm Dorothea Salo, longtime LeGuin admirer just coming out of lurk mode. You have already made the acquaintance of my husband David. Dorothea -- dorothea@terracom.net | http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea/ "Cuando me paro a contemplar mi estado/y a ver los pasos por do me ha traido/hallo, segun por do anduve perdido/ que a mayor mal pudiera haber llegado..." -- G. de la Vega To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Jul 19 20:49:31 2001 Received: from hm.egroups.com (hm.egroups.com [208.50.99.198]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA28493 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 09:51:37 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-222-995561466-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2001 16:51:07 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 19 Jul 2001 16:51:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 64113 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2001 16:49:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Jul 2001 16:49:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2001 16:49:50 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (fred178.u3.cos.pcisys.net [208.205.225.178]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f6JGnjj23729 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:49:45 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B571EDD.3030208@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 10:54:37 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: d82a93737ff6179406feff5fbc407ff6 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 160 Ian W. Riddell wrote: > There is also the difference that Jesus had some will in the matter > and knew > why he was making his sacrifice. > > I haven't read "Omelas" in years, but I don't remember the sufferer > being at > all aware of the reason for their suffering. Good point. You're right about Omelas--if I remember, they believed that if the suffering child understood at all what was going on, that would decrease the totality of the suffering. --Grey To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Jul 19 20:51:02 2001 Received: from mu.egroups.com (mu.egroups.com [64.211.240.238]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA04587 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:35:17 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-224-995567711-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2001 18:35:13 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 19 Jul 2001 18:35:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 62151 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2001 18:33:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jul 2001 18:33:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2001 18:33:40 -0000 Received: from [208.8.55.50] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 6104295 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:36:01 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010719113339.008a3100@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010718202603.02697bf0@pop.netmeg.net> References: <3B55C0F5.8050304@pcisys.net> <72.d0a79c9.2883264b@aol.com> <3B54E867.F7EFAA20@virgin.net> <5.1.0.14.1.20010718111627.026a3920@pop.netmeg.net> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:33:39 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: e21ae39381731b589a7324e7bdc93e42 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 196 At 08:38 PM 7/18/01 -0400, you wrote: >Regarding James' hypothesis: Isn't the deal he describes -- that one >individual might pay in misery and suffering for ths gifts of joy offeredto >others -- precisely the core of Christian mythology? And even of Christian >practice -- monks living lives of prayer and abstention and work in order >to balance out the sin of the world so humanity might know the gift of >God's grace ? Is this what Omelas is about? I didn't get that feeling from either Dostoyevsky's version or the later version by LeGuin. In both cases, children were involved--the innocent who did not choose to be in this situation. I also get the feeling they don't understand what is going on either. The situations you mention, Chirst and the monks and nuns in monastic life, all involve a deliberate and informed choice. Moreover, except for Christ who was executed, many of the monastics do not suffer the brutality that these children were undergoing. >Is this my next self-assigned reading? If you haven't read it, I would recommend it; it is quite short. -=Fred=- My very bone-ends... Made contact with the icy quilts of deep December... - Buson - email: fredr@gci-net.com To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Jul 19 20:51:48 2001 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA11743 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:51:37 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-225-995575866-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2001 20:51:06 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 19 Jul 2001 20:51:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 80787 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2001 20:50:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jul 2001 20:50:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.62) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2001 20:50:39 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:50:39 -0700 Received: from 139.80.123.34 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 20:50:39 GMT X-Originating-IP: [139.80.123.34] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jul 2001 20:50:39.0711 (UTC) FILETIME=[77F936F0:01C11094] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 08:50:39 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Whose Lathe? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 2288e2a4fa53ab3fa7a4ac8d08df24e9 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 245 >And what is a Lathe, anyway? I know a lathe as a machine tool for >makingvradially symmetrical objects like table legs, screws, gun barrels, >wheels, engine parts and the like from wood or metal by turning them on the >long axis and cutting them from the side. >How is this a tool of destruction or even equalization? Is there some >obsolete usage I need to be educated to? I was talking with my Mum about this the other night. Silly me, I always thought it was something that sorted grains (a big sieve? How did I ever come up with that). But we decided that Lathe was used because, as you said it is something that makes symetrical objects and I think the thing to note here is that marvelous word -balance-. In balancing the object, in whittling it down to a perfectly radial, symmetrical object... what is a Lathe but an equalizer? So a Lathe is a perfect image to capture that balance that is the universe in action.. it's a shame it's not an accurate tanslation, becaue it works so well. As far as it being a tool of construction goes? I just thought that it is you that will bring destruction, if you step away from the balance of the universe, the Late simply keeps things in balance and destroys or change anything that has gone.. of it's axis so to say. Can anyone explain this last bit, I'm not doing too well. I'm just trying to say that it's not the Lathe itself that is the destroyer, but simply that there is no place in the universe for anything that is out of balance. Like in The Lathe of Heaven... JenN (trying desperately to think and keep one eye on the clock at the same time because she has a lecture, like NOW) Can someone else explain it? please? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Jul 19 20:52:54 2001 Received: from cj.egroups.com (cj.egroups.com [208.50.144.68]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA16590 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:29:13 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-227-995581751-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2001 22:29:12 -0000 X-Sender: dfabi@shrike.depaul.edu X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 19 Jul 2001 22:29:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 1575 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2001 22:28:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Jul 2001 22:28:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n4.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.43) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2001 22:28:53 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: dfabi@shrike.depaul.edu Received: from [10.1.2.28] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2001 22:28:52 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9j7mv2+3ju6@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 140.192.38.27 From: "Dexter Fabi" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 22:28:50 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Sci-fi Channel and LeGuin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: d25c8a0979a2beb082563cd69b4e1ea9 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 274 Apparently the SciFi channel is in pre-production stages with many of UKL's works: http://www.13thstreet.com/scanner/contentcomm.cfm?Epitaph=C49D87EC- 8FED-4C07-A0EAEE573E5743A2 D. Fabi To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Jul 19 20:52:54 2001 Received: from fk.egroups.com (fk.egroups.com [64.211.240.232]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA14663 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 14:51:02 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-226-995579461-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Jul 2001 21:51:01 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 19 Jul 2001 21:50:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 60394 invoked from network); 19 Jul 2001 21:50:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Jul 2001 21:50:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Jul 2001 21:50:19 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (gilligan11.pci1.cos.pcisys.net [216.229.35.11]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f6JLoIj21769 for ; Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:50:18 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B57654B.8070207@pcisys.net> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <5.1.0.14.2.20010718192359.02011ec0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:55:07 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: crones Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: bac17cfdafb7c81ee079f9f1adf15d5f Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 260 Janice E. Dawley wrote: > At 09:11 AM 7/19/01 +1200, Grey Walker wrote: > >Actually, I rather get the feeling that she's proud of being a crone. > > Speaking of crones, while reading *Always Coming Home* today I came > across > a sentence that made me laugh delightedly: > > "My grandmother got drunk and disorderly, and spent the night in the > barns, > gambling." > > That's the kind of crone I want to be... at least once in a while, while > celebrating the Wine, say. Yes! Y'know, I wonder if everyone celebrated the Wine properly once a year, we might not be a lot better off... --efenblide, Grey To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Jul 21 09:36:11 2001 Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (n10.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.60]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA11023 for ; Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:17:07 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-228-995649396-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Jul 2001 17:16:37 -0000 X-Sender: peterseyferth@mac.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 20 Jul 2001 17:16:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 27670 invoked from network); 20 Jul 2001 17:16:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Jul 2001 17:16:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailrelay2.lrz-muenchen.de) (129.187.254.102) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Jul 2001 17:16:31 -0000 Received: from [212.224.54.245] by mailrelay2.lrz-muenchen.de with ESMTP for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:16:30 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Outlook-Express-Macintosh-Edition/5.02.2106 To: Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <995633922.168.97195.l10@yahoogroups.com> From: Peter Seyferth MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:18:27 +0200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Lathe translation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 09d8d1ff29d8ea42e4e8165552160c35 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 198 > So a Lathe is a perfect image to capture that balance that is the universe > in action.. it's a shame it's not an accurate tanslation, becaue it works so > well. I have read The Lathe of Heaven in its German translation a few months ago. The German title is "Die Geissel des Himmels". "des Himmels" means "of Heaven", that is no problem. "Die Geissel" is more difficult to translate. Theoretically, "Geissel" could mean flagellum, but that would be nonsense. Two more meanings are possible, whip and scourge (as nouns). I much more liked the German translation of the novel's title than the English original, because scourge made more sense to me than lathe. I thought the phenomenon that every attempt to force the world to a better state fails in a dystopian way was a bad thing. Dr. Haber is not evil; he tries to make a better world - not just better for him but better for all people. And in his presumption he does not create an utopia but a hell. Personally I like the idea that you can change the world towards utopia (I don't know if we can reach it). So I understood the automatism of failing that happens to Dr. Haber with every attempt to shape the world as something conservative, even as something sick. Now, after your (and your Mother's) explanation I understand what "lathe" stands for and I think that it is not conservative or sick, but leaves us at least a chance of changing things as long as we respect the balance - just like Ged has to respect the balance when he uses magic. So thank you for having enlightened me. Peter To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Jul 21 09:43:02 2001 Received: from n17.groups.yahoo.com (n17.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.67]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA09298 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 03:58:46 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-229-995713096-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 21 Jul 2001 10:58:16 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 21 Jul 2001 10:58:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 5019 invoked from network); 21 Jul 2001 10:58:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Jul 2001 10:58:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.31) by mta3 with SMTP; 21 Jul 2001 10:58:14 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 03:58:14 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.12 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 10:58:13 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.12] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 21 Jul 2001 10:58:14.0234 (UTC) FILETIME=[0A0B5BA0:01C111D4] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 22:58:13 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Lathe translation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 653d86f38d1038d0e95d851e6a4346ea I agree with you Peter, because it seems to me that in many things we try too hard in one direction, rather than trying equally in all directions, striving for balance. I wonder if this is maybe why Le Guin suggests going backwards to get to utopia... if perhaps this is her reaction. If maybe this is her way of getting things back into balance. It kind of reminds me of chaos theory as well... if Dr. Haber is trying to make all these good things happen, surely that will inversely affect someone else, somewhere in a world. Maybe that's why Heaven, the great equalliser, is a destroyer, for the sake of the balance. >I thought the phenomenon that every attempt to force the world to a >better >state fails in a dystopian way was a bad thing. Dr. Haber is >not evil; he >tries to make a better world - not just better for him >but better for all >people. And in his presumption he does not create >an utopia but a hell. >Personally I like the idea that you can change >the world towards utopia (I >don't know if we can reach it). So I >understood the automatism of failing that happens to Dr. Haber with >every >attempt to shape the world as something conservative, even as >something >sick. Now, after your (and your Mother's) explanation I >understand what >"lathe" stands for and I think that it is not >conservative or sick, but >leaves us at least a chance of changing >things as long as we respect the >balance - just like Ged has to >respect the balance when he uses magic. > >So thank you for having enlightened me. > >Peter > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Jul 23 18:55:42 2001 Received: from n17.groups.yahoo.com (n17.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.67]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA20560 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:16:18 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-230-995764307-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jul 2001 01:11:47 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 22 Jul 2001 01:11:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 5399 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2001 01:11:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 22 Jul 2001 01:11:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.125) by mta1 with SMTP; 22 Jul 2001 01:11:46 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.66.56]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Sun, 22 Jul 2001 02:11:45 +0100 Message-ID: <3B5A27C6.EC64EA68@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <3B571EDD.3030208@pcisys.net> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 02:09:26 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 7d8717dffe7db29b82dc9953d5d5202a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 87 The essence of 'The Ones who Walk Away from Omelas' is not the child in the broom closet (whether the child symbolises Christ or anything else), but those who leave the city. They embody this idea:- "So long as one soul is unjustly jailed I am not free" (from 'Malafrena' again. 1981 Panther Granada page 24 line 11) chiz chiz rdg P.S. Grey Walker wrote: > ... about Omelas--if I remember, they believed > that if the suffering child understood at all what was going on, that > would decrease the totality of the suffering. I'm afraid you mis-remember. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Jul 23 18:55:42 2001 Received: from n13.groups.yahoo.com (n13.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.63]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA20862 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:44:34 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-231-995765792-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jul 2001 01:36:32 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 22 Jul 2001 01:36:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 56179 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2001 01:36:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 22 Jul 2001 01:36:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.121) by mta2 with SMTP; 22 Jul 2001 01:36:30 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.66.56]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Sun, 22 Jul 2001 02:36:30 +0100 Message-ID: <3B5A2D92.34608E98@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 02:34:11 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Freedom vs Happiness Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 170fc96f651e73bf082227a606103347 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 89 Jenn Martin wrote: > I can't think of any quotes... but I know they are there.. there are places > where Le Guin talks about freedom and happiness directly, Can anyone think > of any? I know I posted one quote already, but I just finished another post, regarding 'Omelas', and I want to quote more extensively. "...he wrestled for some hours with the angel, the messenger, who had challenged him that afternoon. he put up the best fight he could, since, for a nineteen-year-old, he regarded clear thinking highly; but the angel won hands down. Itale could not refuse what he had wanted and sought: the idea of human greatness, not embodied in a person, but to be won for all by the fellowship of mankind. So long as one soul is unjustly jailed I am not free, thought the new convert, and when he thought of these things his face took on a stern expression, and also a look of great happiness." Ah me, if only I were nineteen... Seriously though, don't you think that one of the best aspects of Ms LeGuin's work is this sort of stuff. She says to us, we _can_ make a difference - so try! I note also that this passage says, contra the Grand Inquisitor, that freedom and happiness go together. chiz chiz rdg To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Jul 23 18:55:42 2001 Received: from n16.groups.yahoo.com (n16.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.66]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA20884 for ; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:45:28 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-232-995766298-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mo.egroups.com with NNFMP; 22 Jul 2001 01:44:58 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 22 Jul 2001 01:44:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 22448 invoked from network); 22 Jul 2001 01:44:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 22 Jul 2001 01:44:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.212) by mta1 with SMTP; 22 Jul 2001 01:44:56 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 21 Jul 2001 18:44:56 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.11 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 22 Jul 2001 01:44:55 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.11] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Jul 2001 01:44:56.0027 (UTC) FILETIME=[E8C8BAB0:01C1124F] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 13:44:55 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] crones Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 5f708a8493fc611e6ecb18019c436b97 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 90 It's details and people like this that make me love Always Coming Home. When is anyone going to get round to speaking about it on the FFSFU Listserve? I'm afraid to speak up, but time's running out. Jenn >At 09:11 AM 7/19/01 +1200, Grey Walker wrote: > >Actually, I rather get the feeling that she's proud of being a crone. > >Speaking of crones, while reading *Always Coming Home* today I came across >a sentence that made me laugh delightedly: > >"My grandmother got drunk and disorderly, and spent the night in the barns, >gambling." > >That's the kind of crone I want to be... at least once in a while, while >celebrating the Wine, say. > >----- >Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT >http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ >Listening to: Radiohead -- Amnesiac >"...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; >the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and >servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Jul 29 14:19:57 2001 Received: from n6.groups.yahoo.com (n6.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.56]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA12069 for ; Tue, 24 Jul 2001 05:54:53 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-233-995979263-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jul 2001 12:54:23 -0000 X-Sender: peson@bigfoot.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 24 Jul 2001 12:54:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 36658 invoked from network); 24 Jul 2001 12:21:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 24 Jul 2001 12:21:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n9.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.48) by mta1 with SMTP; 24 Jul 2001 12:21:20 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: peson@bigfoot.com Received: from [10.1.10.117] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Jul 2001 12:21:19 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9jjp7u+qr97@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 195.149.141.30 From: "Fredrik Petersson" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:21:18 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Looking for stuff inspired by Le Guin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 8b47e993e2d7f2f025b4420ca354b212 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 91 Hi all I'm going to create a new section on my Le Guin site (Le Guin's World, http://surf.to/le.guin/) for stuff that is "inspired by" Le Guin. First up is a draft for a screenplay for _A wizard of Earthsea_ by Rizwan Virk. (It's not up yet) So now I'm looking for more stuff that you would like to share. Things like artwork, games (Where are all the RPG buffs?!), maps, stories, etc. And also, other stuff like reviews and writeups (Let's see what you wrote about _The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas_...) If you have anything you want the world to see, I'll be happy to post it at Le Guin's World. (Submissions go to leguinsworld@mail.com) Also, I'm looking for scans of front covers of the books, especially non-english editions. Fredrik for Le Guin's World To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Aug 04 12:47:32 2001 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com (n11.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.61]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA14980 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 07:37:03 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-234-996849392-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2001 14:36:32 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 3 Aug 2001 14:36:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 27449 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2001 14:36:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2001 14:36:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (209.43.95.188) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2001 14:36:07 -0000 Received: from vin.steel-tango.com ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f73Ea6N19357 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:36:06 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010803103457.026a5cb0@pop.netmeg.net> X-Sender: vincent@pop.netmeg.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9jjp7u+qr97@eGroups.com> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 10:37:02 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Hey! Is this thing on? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 0128460e94a1af6bc05752df1e5494bd Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1178 I recently reconfigured my email filters and haven't seen any postings since 7/24. Has this group been dormant, or did I break something here...? thanks vin ================================================================ "Human Being, eh? Well, I suppose one's heard mixed reports..." - Fentible Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Aug 04 12:48:16 2001 Received: from n14.groups.yahoo.com (n14.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.64]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA15727 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:04:46 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-235-996851055-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by jk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2001 15:04:16 -0000 X-Sender: paula@ba.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 3 Aug 2001 15:04:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 2266 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2001 15:02:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Aug 2001 15:02:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pop1.lc-2.la.inter.net) (66.60.8.6) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2001 15:02:50 -0000 Received: from paula (h066060045112.isol.net.ar [66.60.45.112]) by pop1.lc-2.la.inter.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA11309 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:01:27 -0400 Message-ID: <002001c11c2d$86b80f00$7d2d3c42@paula> To: References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010803103457.026a5cb0@pop.netmeg.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "paula" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:03:58 -0300 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Hey! Is this thing on? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: c5d349d26fc4bc943cca1906416ae5c6 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1191 I don't know? i haven't received any mails, so i guess members are on holidays :o) or very busy at this time of year. i'm here! take care, paula. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Aug 04 12:48:16 2001 Received: from n1.groups.yahoo.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA16131 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:20:32 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-236-996851896-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2001 15:19:58 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 3 Aug 2001 15:18:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 26293 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2001 15:18:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2001 15:18:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (209.43.95.188) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2001 15:18:06 -0000 Received: from vin.steel-tango.com ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f73FI6N26390 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:18:06 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010803111304.026af850@pop.netmeg.net> X-Sender: vincent@pop.netmeg.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <002001c11c2d$86b80f00$7d2d3c42@paula> References: <5.1.0.14.1.20010803103457.026a5cb0@pop.netmeg.net> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 11:19:01 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Hey! Is this thing on? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 959911aff4c7e126cb696b78a9f69800 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1198 Thanks, Paul. I'm glad you're here. Why aren't you on holiday or busy? best vin At 12:03 PM 8/3/01 -0300, you wrote: >I don't know? i haven't received any mails, so i guess members are on >holidays :o) or very busy at this time of year. >i'm here! > >take care, >paula. > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ================================================================ "Never take a fence down until you know why it was put up." - Robert Frost Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Aug 04 12:48:16 2001 Received: from n25.groups.yahoo.com (n25.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.75]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA16244 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:25:00 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-237-996852267-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2001 15:24:29 -0000 X-Sender: vincent@steel-tango.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 3 Aug 2001 15:24:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 40584 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2001 15:23:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2001 15:23:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO yourpalsat.astrian.net) (209.43.95.188) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2001 15:23:03 -0000 Received: from vin.steel-tango.com ([216.213.78.28]) by yourpalsat.astrian.net (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f73FN2N26816 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:23:02 -0400 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.1.20010803112304.026ac1c0@pop.netmeg.net> X-Sender: vincent@pop.netmeg.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010803111304.026af850@pop.netmeg.net> References: <002001c11c2d$86b80f00$7d2d3c42@paula> <5.1.0.14.1.20010803103457.026a5cb0@pop.netmeg.net> X-eGroups-From: Vin Urbanowski From: Vin Urbanowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 11:23:58 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Hey! Is this thing on? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a7c26e3431a4ae7f6d9a10c94776a75c Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1199 I mean, "Thanks Paula." Sorry about the butterfingers At 11:19 AM 8/3/01 -0400, you wrote: >Thanks, Paul. I'm glad you're here. Why aren't you on holiday or busy? > > >best > >vin > >At 12:03 PM 8/3/01 -0300, you wrote: > >I don't know? i haven't received any mails, so i guess members are on > >holidays :o) or very busy at this time of year. > >i'm here! > > > >take care, > >paula. > > > > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > >================================================================ >"Never take a fence down until you know why it was put up." > - Robert Frost > > >Vin Urbanowski >Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services >v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com >================================================================ > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ================================================================ "Never take a fence down until you know why it was put up." - Robert Frost Vin Urbanowski Steel Tango Strategic Creative Services v: 203 820 8640 e: vincent@steel-tango.com ================================================================ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Aug 04 12:48:53 2001 Received: from n19.groups.yahoo.com (n19.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.69]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA19587 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:52:59 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-238-996857548-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mw.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Aug 2001 16:52:29 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 3 Aug 2001 16:52:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 8010 invoked from network); 3 Aug 2001 16:50:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Aug 2001 16:50:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Aug 2001 16:50:43 -0000 Received: from [208.2.167.186] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 6537600 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 03 Aug 2001 09:53:19 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010803095042.008b64e0@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010803103457.026a5cb0@pop.netmeg.net> References: <9jjp7u+qr97@eGroups.com> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 09:50:42 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Hey! Is this thing on? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 94899ac7b5c53fd3844f0eb3793a3162 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1221 At 10:37 AM 8/3/01 -0400, you wrote: >I recently reconfigured my email filters and haven't seen any postings >since 7/24. Has this group been dormant, or did I break something here...? > >thanks > >vin It has been quiet recently. -=Fred=- Lonely umbrella Passing the house at twilight First snow falling soft - Yana - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Aug 04 12:51:09 2001 Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10023 for ; Fri, 3 Aug 2001 17:16:39 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-239-996884168-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Aug 2001 00:16:09 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 4 Aug 2001 00:16:08 -0000 Received: (qmail 98330 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2001 00:16:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2001 00:16:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.121) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Aug 2001 00:16:07 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.72.221]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Sat, 4 Aug 2001 01:07:39 +0100 Message-ID: <3B6B3C31.E8DF8C81@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <002001c11c2d$86b80f00$7d2d3c42@paula> <5.1.0.14.1.20010803103457.026a5cb0@pop.netmeg.net> <5.1.0.14.1.20010803112304.026ac1c0@pop.netmeg.net> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 01:05:06 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Hey! Is this thing on? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 459b58936a9b6327262eed77fe378831 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1312 Vin Urbanowski wrote: > I mean, "Thanks Paula." Sorry about the butterfingers Well really! Gratuitous, wanton sorry-ing! Harrumph...I refuse to be drawn. meanwhile, back on topic... (That last line is a verbatim quote from Kilgore Trout's "lost years" novel, 'Topic: planet of dreams') The last LeGuin I bought was 'Four Ways to Forgiveness', five years ago. Now I've been given a book token, enough for one hardback book. Which book from the last five years do the members of the Ekumen recommend I buy? chiz chiz rdg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Aug 04 12:52:16 2001 Received: from n6.groups.yahoo.com (n6.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.56]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA21356 for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2001 07:55:25 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-240-996936894-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Aug 2001 14:54:54 -0000 X-Sender: dorothea@terracom.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 4 Aug 2001 14:54:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 86833 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2001 14:54:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 4 Aug 2001 14:54:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mendota.terracom.net) (208.170.71.129) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Aug 2001 14:54:53 -0000 Received: from [208.170.95.71] (3C2-71.terracom.net [208.170.95.71]) by mendota.terracom.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11186 for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2001 09:54:24 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dorothea@terracom.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B6B3C31.E8DF8C81@virgin.net> References: <002001c11c2d$86b80f00$7d2d3c42@paula> <5.1.0.14.1.20010803103457.026a5cb0@pop.netmeg.net> <5.1.0.14.1.20010803112304.026ac1c0@pop.netmeg.net> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dorothea Salo MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 08:45:50 -0600 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Hey! Is this thing on? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 458867072e17aa70a8a47ae6d925e037 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1359 >The last LeGuin I bought was 'Four Ways to Forgiveness', five years ago. Now >I've been given a book token, enough for one hardback book. Which book from >the last five years do the members of the Ekumen recommend I buy? My vote would be _Tales from Earthsea_ in hardback, because of the terrific maps on the end-papers. Not saying anything against _The Telling_ (except that I don't believe it's out in paperback yet), but there isn't a comparable "bonus" to buying the hardback for that one. Dorothea ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dorothea Salo <*> |"He querido mas vivir en mi peque~a casa, dorothea@terracom.net |exenta, y se~ora, que no en sus ricos http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea |palacios, sojuzgada y cativa."_Celestina_ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Aug 04 12:52:16 2001 Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA21425 for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2001 08:01:08 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-241-996937238-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Aug 2001 15:00:38 -0000 X-Sender: RachelBOsb@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 4 Aug 2001 15:00:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 57697 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2001 15:00:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2001 15:00:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r10.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.106) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 Aug 2001 15:00:37 -0000 Received: from RachelBOsb@aol.com by imo-r10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.9.) id r.120.289a2d2 (4398) for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2001 11:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <120.289a2d2.289d680b@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 139 From: RachelBOsb@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 11:00:27 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 084ad3883c22b012b859c51095c2ffe7 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1361 In a message dated 8/4/01 4:34:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com writes: > The last LeGuin I bought was 'Four Ways to Forgiveness', five years ago. Now > I've been given a book token, enough for one hardback book. Which book from > the last five years do the members of the Ekumen recommend I buy? > I really liked The Telling and it's one that holds up to rereadings therefore good to own. A Fisherman of the Inland Sea is also an excellent story collection and, as I remember it, some of the stories relate to Four Ways to Forgiveness. Rachel ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Aug 04 12:57:59 2001 Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (n10.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.60]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA22128 for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2001 08:54:58 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-242-996940468-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Aug 2001 15:54:28 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 4 Aug 2001 15:54:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 27333 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2001 15:54:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2001 15:54:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Aug 2001 15:54:25 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-234.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.234]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f74FsOk28733 for ; Sat, 4 Aug 2001 09:54:24 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B6C2743.8520D170@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <120.289a2d2.289d680b@aol.com> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 09:48:03 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: after Four Ways Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 7c73427e02241cce4f39e16ac0ac4787 RachelBOsb@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/4/01 4:34:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > The last LeGuin I bought was 'Four Ways to Forgiveness', five years > ago. Now > > I've been given a book token, enough for one hardback book. Which > book > from > > the last five years do the members of the Ekumen recommend I buy? > > > > > I really liked The Telling and it's one that holds up to rereadings > therefore > good to own. A Fisherman of the Inland Sea is also an excellent story > collection and, as I remember it, some of the stories relate to Four > Ways to > Forgiveness. I really like _Fisherman_, too. In fact, I'm starting a discussion group based on an idea I read in "Another Story." But, since it was published a year before _Four Ways_, Roddy may already have it? In that case, I'd throw in my vote for _Tales from Earthsea_ --- unless you are one of those of us who prefer LeGuin's sf to her fantasy. In that case, _Telling_ is also great. Grey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 06 15:14:47 2001 Received: from n5.groups.yahoo.com (n5.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.55]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA13915 for ; Sun, 5 Aug 2001 12:05:35 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-243-997038305-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Aug 2001 19:05:05 -0000 X-Sender: dorothea@terracom.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 5 Aug 2001 19:05:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 98415 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2001 19:05:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2001 19:05:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mendota.terracom.net) (208.170.71.129) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2001 19:05:03 -0000 Received: from [208.170.95.136] (3C2-136.terracom.net [208.170.95.136]) by mendota.terracom.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07804 for ; Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:04:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3B5A27C6.EC64EA68@virgin.net> References: <3B571EDD.3030208@pcisys.net> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dorothea Salo MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 11:17:38 -0600 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 470ddcb4decf600f2e6295e0f8a94242 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 >The essence of 'The Ones who Walk Away from Omelas' is not the child in the >broom closet (whether the child symbolises Christ or anything else), but >those who leave the city. They embody this idea:- > > "So long as one soul is unjustly jailed I am not free" But note that this idea is completely unintelligible without the "one soul." I don't like to argue about the "essence" of a story, though; it strikes me as reductionist. The strength of "Omelas" to me is that it is *not* reductionist. It's quite evenhanded and understated. It does *not* fulminate about the poor poor chiiiiiii-yuld (as, for example, a Sheri Tepper story might do -- not that I don't read and enjoy Tepper, just that she doesn't have LeGuin's sure touch with understated criticism). It does *not* heap invective on the heads of those who leave the child in squalor. It does *not* sing the praises of those who leave; it merely remarks quietly that "they seem to know where they are going." It's not even clear to me that *freedom* is the central issue at hand. Equity is an issue, certainly. Exploitation is an issue. But freedom? The child in the closet lacks a great deal more than freedom. If the door were opened, as the story says, would the child really be any better off? Unable to speak, unable to make sense of the world, probably unable to survive? What good is "freedom" in that case? I believe that a (note: I won't say "the") central question posed by "Omelas" is the difference between *causing* a not-ideal state and *accepting the benefits and consequences* of that state, *once caused*. None of the residents of Omelas shut the child in the closet. They are not the direct cause of the child's misery. Moreover, in the child's current state, they are essentially *powerless to relieve that misery* (seriously, what would happen to an Omelasian who attempted to open that door? Omelasian lynch mob!). Because the responsibility is distant and diluted, it's a great deal easier to collude, and a great deal harder to walk away. (Easier still, of course, because the child is out of sight nearly all the time.) I myself haven't walked away from Omelas. I cringe every time I read the story, because *I live in Omelas* and I know it. I didn't cause Omelas; it existed before I was born, and it's much too big for me to cause in any case. I didn't ask to live in Omelas; no one can choose a place of birth. Nevertheless, I bear responsibility for the many, many children in closets all over the world, because I have not walked away from the Omelasian bargain. I think I know where I might go, if I chose to walk away. But I haven't gone there. Moreover, it would be utterly facile and false of me to say that "freedom" is the sum total of what I have here in Omelas that non-Omelasians lack. "Equity," social and economic, covers a great deal more ground than "freedom." (Insert obligatory comment about rich and poor being equally free to sleep under bridges.) Let me stir up one more controversy, just for fun. It's not clear to me that LeGuin is completely happy with the ones who walk away from Omelas, any more than she is with those who live there. After all, those who walk away leave the child in the closet. Their consciences may be cleaner, since they no longer benefit from the child's exploitation, but how does that help the child? Dorothea ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dorothea Salo <*> |"He querido mas vivir en mi peque~a casa, dorothea@terracom.net |exenta, y se~ora, que no en sus ricos http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea |palacios, sojuzgada y cativa."_Celestina_ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 06 15:14:47 2001 Received: from n19.groups.yahoo.com (n19.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.69]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA14668 for ; Sun, 5 Aug 2001 12:58:29 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-244-997041479-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mw.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Aug 2001 19:57:59 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 5 Aug 2001 19:57:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 67286 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2001 19:57:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2001 19:57:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2001 19:57:57 -0000 Received: from [208.32.92.221] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 6578481 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 05 Aug 2001 13:00:38 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010805125752.008c2ec0@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <3B5A27C6.EC64EA68@virgin.net> <3B571EDD.3030208@pcisys.net> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 12:57:52 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a31dfe1a9ea6953c770271386b0e03f0 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 49 At 11:17 AM 8/5/01 -0600, you wrote: > Let me stir up one more controversy, just for fun. It's not clear >to me that LeGuin is completely happy with the ones who walk away from >Omelas, any more than she is with those who live there. After all, those >who walk away leave the child in the closet. Their consciences may be >cleaner, since they no longer benefit from the child's exploitation, but >how does that help the child? >Dorothea Possibly LeGuin is suggesting that we live in a less than ideal world, full of paradoxes and contradictions and complex grey areas, a world where we are not omnipotent, the real world where some things may not be possible. To simplify matters, it seems to me that most problems or situations have three broad categories of responses: One would be to accept the situation as it is. Another would be to change whatever one can, perhaps only one small part of it, but still do what one can and live with the rest, if one can. However, what if one can't accept the situation one sees as evil, and what if one realistically can't change the situation, even a small part of it? Then the response, as I see it, is to refuse to be a part of it, and therefore one must walk away. What I find interesting also is that all know of it. There is no attempt to hide this. All are told between the ages of eight and twelve. This, therefore, is an informed decision made by all--to stay or to leave. (An aside here: With my copy of the story is Le Guin's explanation for why she gives credit to W. James instead of Dostoyevsky, where she first read it. Her prejudices are quite obvious as she "conveniently" forgets that even though Dostoyevsky became a "violent reactionary" [too bad she doesn't tell us what she means by that--as far as I remember, Dostoyevsky was not a violent man], it was when he was a "violent reactionary" that he wrote Brothers Karamazov, which is where the story first appeared. Ivan and Alexy, if I remember correctly, would both walk away from Omelas.) LeGuin in the story seems to suggest that it is knowledge of the pain and suffering that creates the arts, that whatever good there may be on the planet comes from suffering, whether it be the suffering of many or of one. -=Fred=- Lonely umbrella Passing the house at twilight First snow falling soft - Yana - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 06 15:14:47 2001 Received: from n33.groups.yahoo.com (n33.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.83]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA15349 for ; Sun, 5 Aug 2001 13:43:22 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-245-997044172-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Aug 2001 20:42:52 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 5 Aug 2001 20:42:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 82632 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2001 20:42:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2001 20:42:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Aug 2001 20:42:51 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-14.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.14]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f75KgoS09126 for ; Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:42:50 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B6DBEFF.1AD59692@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <3B571EDD.3030208@pcisys.net> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 14:47:43 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Omelas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: cd1dc5c474208d56f65a780329875f7a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 52 Dorothea Salo wrote: > I myself haven't walked away from Omelas. I cringe every time I > read the story, because *I live in Omelas* and I know it. I didn't > cause > Omelas; it existed before I was born, and it's much too big for me to > cause > in any case. I didn't ask to live in Omelas; no one can choose a place > of > birth. Nevertheless, I bear responsibility for the many, many children > in > closets all over the world, because I have not walked away from the > Omelasian bargain. I think I know where I might go, if I chose to walk > > away. But I haven't gone there. I also admitted this about myself earlier. And yet, I think that if we are entangled in this world, if our roots, as it were, are entwined with the roots of those around us, those whom we love and those to whom we have obligations, it may not be such an easy thing to simply get up and walk away from Omelas. Is this what you meant, Fred? For my part, sometimes I think I spend my life attempting to make decisions that are in effect like moving into houses that are further and further towards the outskirts of Omelas, if still hooked up to city water, so to speak. Maybe it isn't enough, but it's what I've been doing. Grey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Aug 14 12:07:41 2001 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com (n11.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.61]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA08855 for ; Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:23:34 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-246-997813383-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 14 Aug 2001 18:23:03 -0000 X-Sender: jhyde@christschool.org X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 14 Aug 2001 18:23:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 10952 invoked from network); 14 Aug 2001 18:21:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 14 Aug 2001 18:21:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.christschool.org) (208.131.129.57) by mta2 with SMTP; 14 Aug 2001 18:21:20 -0000 Received: from christschool.org (www.christschool.org [208.131.129.58]) by mail.christschool.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f7EIMUB17169 for ; Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:22:30 -0400 Message-ID: <3B796D9A.FAE1AA9D@christschool.org> Organization: Christ School St. Dunstan's Library X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <002001c11c2d$86b80f00$7d2d3c42@paula> <5.1.0.14.1.20010803103457.026a5cb0@pop.netmeg.net> <5.1.0.14.1.20010803112304.026ac1c0@pop.netmeg.net> <3B6B3C31.E8DF8C81@virgin.net> From: Jane Hyde MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:27:38 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Hey! Is this thing on? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 9fd3f1d6c1fd034347fb7c2a864f2220 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 260 "The Telling." You won't regret it. Sorry to be brief, but I'm trying to catch up here. -- Jane Hyde To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Aug 16 21:49:09 2001 Received: from n15.groups.yahoo.com (n15.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.65]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA01790 for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:05:37 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-247-998010307-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Aug 2001 01:05:07 -0000 X-Sender: iwr77@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 17 Aug 2001 01:05:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 79193 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2001 01:05:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Aug 2001 01:05:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n6.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.45) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 Aug 2001 01:05:06 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: iwr77@hotmail.com Received: from [10.1.10.68] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Aug 2001 01:05:06 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9lhqk1+fjf0@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 65.9.172.44 From: "Ian W. Riddell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 01:05:05 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] O Frabjous Day!!! It's Here!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 7357f254e3f59fc9659a9ec32db995da Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 629 So, I went into the Barnes and Noble I used to work at, expecting just a nice visit with my friends and what should they put in my hand . . . The Other Wind!!! I'm so excited. I sooo want to start this, but I just don't want to get to the end and then have to wait for another book for a long time. I have recently re-read all of the other Earthsea books to prepare myself for this one. I think I'll make it an annual habit. And darn, I had just started reading "The Lathe of Heaven" for the only the second time and now I'm going to have to put it aside for a week. I'm blathering on. I'd better give in and start reading. blessings widdy To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Aug 16 21:49:09 2001 Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA02365 for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 18:25:08 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-248-998011478-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 17 Aug 2001 01:24:38 -0000 X-Sender: dorothea@terracom.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 17 Aug 2001 01:24:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 6165 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2001 01:24:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 Aug 2001 01:24:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mendota.terracom.net) (208.170.71.129) by mta1 with SMTP; 17 Aug 2001 01:24:37 -0000 Received: from [208.170.95.44] (3C2-44.terracom.net [208.170.95.44]) by mendota.terracom.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08265 for ; Thu, 16 Aug 2001 20:24:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9lhqk1+fjf0@eGroups.com> References: <9lhqk1+fjf0@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dorothea Salo MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 20:25:27 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] O Frabjous Day!!! It's Here!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3c61c5ad9b266683d6bdf77275bfb277 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 645 >So, I went into the Barnes and Noble I used to work at, expecting >just a nice visit with my friends and what should they put in my >hand . . . > >The Other Wind!!! Thanks. You started a -- well, we'll call it a negotiation -- between my husband and me over who has to walk to the bookstore to pick it up. *grin* Dorothea (I have to go to the bookstore tomorrow after work; he has to take out the trash) -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dorothea Salo <*> |"He querido mas vivir en mi peque~a casa, dorothea@terracom.net |exenta, y se~ora, que no en sus ricos http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea |palacios, sojuzgada y cativa."_Celestina_ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 20 05:25:59 2001 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com (n2.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.52]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA21978 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 04:54:23 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-249-998135632-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2001 11:53:52 -0000 X-Sender: dsalo@softhome.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 18 Aug 2001 11:53:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 98325 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2001 11:53:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Aug 2001 11:53:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mendota.terracom.net) (208.170.71.129) by mta2 with SMTP; 18 Aug 2001 11:53:50 -0000 Received: from [208.170.95.208] (3C2-208.terracom.net [208.170.95.208]) by mendota.terracom.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA13942 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 06:53:22 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dsalo@pop.softhome.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9lhqk1+fjf0@eGroups.com> References: <9lhqk1+fjf0@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: David Salo MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 06:53:25 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 48d5a3ecd8fd415357b44a098b9db24c Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8 I have just finished reading "The Other Wind". It is an excellent book, which I can strongly recommend to anyone who likes Le Guin's work. However, it is difficult to say more about it without revealing too much about its contents, especially the very important change (internal and external to the story) that forms its core. If you thought that The Farthest Shore, Tehanu, and Dragonfly had altered too much that was 'canonical' about Earthsea, you may have similar problems with The Other Wind. On the other hand, if you can accept Earthsea as a changing world rather than as a static place of eternal verities, you are likely to find The Other Wind refreshing, though shocking, like a slap of cold water on the face. Like The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas, The Other Wind turns its focus toward the best-hidden of the cruelties its characters live with every day and accept as a condition for the way society is. In Hardic Earthsea, that way is the way of True Names and wizards' magic. But behind and beneath the power and the glory of the wizards, there is a dark, shameful secret -- something which everyone is aware of, but which is not discussed or even questioned, because it is inconvenient to do so. The reader of the other Earthsea books may find that he or she is a participant in this convenient act of forgetfulness, being just as aware of this secret as any inhabitant of Earthsea, and having put it aside for the enjoyment of wizards' spells, heroes' adventures, and the white towers of Havnor. But Le Guin -- perhaps feeling a little guilty herself -- now exposes it, and uses her 'magical' power as author and narrator to change things, framing a story that will permanently alter our understanding of Earthsea. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 20 05:26:00 2001 Received: from n20.groups.yahoo.com (n20.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.70]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA26664 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:32:30 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-250-998155920-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2001 17:32:00 -0000 X-Sender: heyiya@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 18 Aug 2001 17:32:00 -0000 Received: (qmail 67407 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2001 17:31:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Aug 2001 17:31:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.18) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 Aug 2001 17:31:59 -0000 Received: from [216.26.3.147] (i48-07-19.pdx.du.teleport.com [216.26.3.147]) by goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28731 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:31:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: heyiya@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9lhqk1+fjf0@eGroups.com> References: <9lhqk1+fjf0@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: heather w MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:34:40 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] O Frabjous Day!!! It's Here!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: db09117f950c7927ff482d8be755b45c Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 39 where are you? the bookstores in Portland, OR, all have a September release date in their computers and no copies in stock... I even checked amazon.com, and they don't have it ready either. Heather, not pleased with the irony of no copies in the author's home town... * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple heyiya@earthlink.net To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 20 05:26:16 2001 Received: from n13.groups.yahoo.com (n13.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.63]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA28385 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:48:35 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-251-998160485-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2001 18:48:05 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 18 Aug 2001 18:48:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 29305 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2001 18:48:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Aug 2001 18:48:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp4vepub.verizon.net) (206.46.170.25) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 Aug 2001 18:48:02 -0000 Received: from zion.bellatlantic.net (pool-64-222-82-230.burl.east.verizon.net [64.222.82.230]) by smtp4vepub.verizon.net with ESMTP for ; id NAA75463667 Sat, 18 Aug 2001 13:48:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010818144940.00a725d0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Sender: jdawley@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <9lhqk1+fjf0@eGroups.com> <9lhqk1+fjf0@eGroups.com> From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:52:41 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] O Frabjous Day!!! It's Here!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 198402f4f098a65bb2e0422259f5e9d6 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 67 At 10:34 AM 8/18/01 -0800, heather whipple wrote: >where are you? the bookstores in Portland, OR, all have a September >release date in their computers and no copies in stock... I even >checked amazon.com, and they don't have it ready either. I bought my copy yesterday evening at our local Borders in Burlington, Vermont. Perhaps some stores are displaying the book before they are supposed to? If so, too late -- I have it and I'm not giving it back! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Massive Attack -- Mezzanine "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 20 05:27:15 2001 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com (n2.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.52]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA03115 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 15:41:46 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-252-998174475-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2001 22:41:15 -0000 X-Sender: iwr77@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 18 Aug 2001 22:41:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 54602 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2001 22:41:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Aug 2001 22:41:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.124) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 Aug 2001 22:41:14 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 15:41:14 -0700 Received: from 65.9.172.44 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 22:41:14 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.9.172.44] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2001 22:41:14.0760 (UTC) FILETIME=[E329D880:01C12836] From: "Ian W. Riddell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:41:14 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] O Frabjous Day!!! It's Here!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 507fb290353740923240a530b008234f Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 90 I'm in central Pennsylvania. Maybe my store messed up on a strict on-sale date! widdy >From: heather w >Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] O Frabjous Day!!! It's Here!! >Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:34:40 -0800 > >where are you? the bookstores in Portland, OR, all have a September >release date in their computers and no copies in stock... I even >checked amazon.com, and they don't have it ready either. > >Heather, not pleased with the irony of no copies in the author's home >town... > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >heather whipple >heyiya@earthlink.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 20 05:27:15 2001 Received: from n22.groups.yahoo.com (n22.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.72]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA03137 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 15:42:45 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-253-998174534-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2001 22:42:15 -0000 X-Sender: dorothea@terracom.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 18 Aug 2001 22:42:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 74852 invoked from network); 18 Aug 2001 22:42:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Aug 2001 22:42:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mendota.terracom.net) (208.170.71.129) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 Aug 2001 22:42:13 -0000 Received: from [208.170.95.51] (3C2-51.terracom.net [208.170.95.51]) by mendota.terracom.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10874 for ; Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:41:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <9lhqk1+fjf0@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dorothea Salo MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:43:07 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] O Frabjous Day!!! It's Here!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 5ad6ec75673c258c498adafa6d79762b Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 92 >where are you? the bookstores in Portland, OR, all have a September >release date in their computers and no copies in stock... I even >checked amazon.com, and they don't have it ready either. Madison, Wisconsin. Borders had it, though it hadn't yet been put on the shelves. A frustrating book, this. She could never have written it when she was young. It had too much to explain, to tie up, I think. The fascination of _Tehanu_ for me was that it did *not* explain, did *not* tie up, left me guessing at the same time I delighted in the marvelous characters. Several characters in _The Other Wind_ feel decidedly shortchanged to me. I could wish LeGuin had been a bit more leisurely in her writing, a bit less focused on plot and more on character and idea. Which is not to say I disliked the book. On the contrary. But I don't think it's all it could have been -- and I agree with my husband that it's damned hard to discuss it without spoilers, so I won't say any more for now! Dorothea -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dorothea Salo <*> |"He querido mas vivir en mi peque~a casa, dorothea@terracom.net |exenta, y se~ora, que no en sus ricos http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea |palacios, sojuzgada y cativa."_Celestina_ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Aug 20 05:28:34 2001 Received: from n9.groups.yahoo.com (n9.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.59]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA09252 for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 07:47:40 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-254-998232430-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 19 Aug 2001 14:47:10 -0000 X-Sender: Judyldubois@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 19 Aug 2001 14:47:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 92253 invoked from network); 19 Aug 2001 14:47:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Aug 2001 14:47:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m02.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.5) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Aug 2001 14:47:09 -0000 Received: from Judyldubois@aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id r.72.e9e51f6 (17526) for ; Sun, 19 Aug 2001 10:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <72.e9e51f6.28b12b66@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 115 From: judyldubois@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 10:47:02 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: b480855a35563c75e757a6fe1330e779 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 134 I'm living in France and have ordered, but not yet received Earthsea Tales and The Telling. What is The Other Wind? Another new book? I gather it is set in Earthsea. Three new Le Guin books all at once, I'm going to have to temporarily divorce my family to find time to read them. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Aug 21 12:00:11 2001 Received: from n5.groups.yahoo.com (n5.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.55]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA00672 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:48:28 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-255-998318877-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 14:47:57 -0000 X-Sender: awkword@prodigy.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 14:47:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 67060 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 14:46:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 14:46:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.2.220) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 14:46:08 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: awkword@prodigy.net Received: from [10.1.10.33] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 14:46:08 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9lr7rd+lglr@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 209.254.90.29 From: "Eric Silvernale" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:46:05 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Borders the Other Wind and catching up Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: b258891ed89fab7af859548a8da4d099 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 96 I just bought a copy of Other Wind at the St Paul, MN, Borders. I had to ask for it since they had yet to get around to shelving it. I don't know the policy now but I worked for Borders a few years ago and for B&N for a decade before that and sell dates were limited to a few bestsellers. Plus, if you ever have proof that another store is selling the book before sell date, have the bookstore call the publisher. The publisher will then release the book for general sale. This has been an amazing year for Le Guin fans! All these fabulous books to read. I'm falling way behind and loving it. I've been trying to get a hard copy of The Farthest Shore but with no success. Atheneum put out new hardcovers in the 90s and since first editions of the Earthsea trilogy is unheard of, I am aiming for that edition. Does anyone know a good web store to try? Babbittsbooks.com has always been successful for me but have no copies of the Farthest Shore. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Aug 21 12:00:12 2001 Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA02130 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:47:08 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-256-998322397-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 Aug 2001 15:46:38 -0000 X-Sender: heyiya@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_1); 20 Aug 2001 15:46:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 51215 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2001 15:45:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 Aug 2001 15:45:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.121.50) by mta2 with SMTP; 20 Aug 2001 15:45:26 -0000 Received: from [216.26.3.147] (i48-01-46.pdx.du.teleport.com [216.26.2.46]) by avocet.mail.pas.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03095 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:45:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: heyiya@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9lr7rd+lglr@eGroups.com> References: <9lr7rd+lglr@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: heather w MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 08:48:02 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Borders etc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3145b1005a0ee87785cef986891d360e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 112 Thanks for all the reports of where you got your copy. I'm a little disturbed by the implication that the big chains *MAY* have gotten copies before the local independant bookstores I contacted, but that's a problem for another mailing list. Or maybe it's a bias in favor of the eastern half of the country. I'll get my copy eventually! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple heyiya@earthlink.net To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Aug 29 18:42:01 2001 Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (n10.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.60]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA29867 for ; Tue, 28 Aug 2001 22:40:40 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-257-999063610-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Aug 2001 05:40:10 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 29 Aug 2001 05:40:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 4563 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2001 05:40:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Aug 2001 05:40:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-1.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Aug 2001 05:40:09 -0000 Received: from [207.229.172.193] (207-229-148-153.d.enteract.com [207.229.148.153]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E106039 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:40:07 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 00:40:00 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 2f3df362adf9bb8cbcdd6d87f9d820f9 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 14 Well, I just finished The Other Wind. I found a copy last week at a Barnes & Ignoble here in Chicago, and while I would normally wait to buy it at Women & Children First or Unabridged Books, somehow I couldn't put it down once I had it in my hands. Like other early readers, I will avoid a spoilerizing review, but I will say this: Wonderful. Sublime. I found it deeply satisfying, profound and uplifting. I think it's the best thing UKL has written since Four Ways to Forgiveness, and it's my second favorite book in the Earthsea series, a close second after Wizard. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Aug 29 18:43:31 2001 Received: from n16.groups.yahoo.com (n16.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.66]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA14128 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:16:21 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-258-999101512-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by mo.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Aug 2001 16:15:50 -0000 X-Sender: heyiya@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 29 Aug 2001 16:11:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 37037 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2001 16:10:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Aug 2001 16:10:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.65) by mta3 with SMTP; 29 Aug 2001 16:10:30 -0000 Received: from [216.26.2.230] ([216.26.3.243]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f7TGAPb02006 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:10:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: heyiya@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: heather w MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:13:22 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: dcce1e64d31bd2efda54dd7413323775 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 120 I was struck by a similarity between The Other Wind and Philip Pullman's Amber Spyglass and wondered if anyone else has read them both. If you haven't read Golden Compass, Subtle Knife, and Amber Spyglass by Philip Pullman, get thee to a bookstore or library. Spoiler space for both books. : 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 Disclaimer: I read TOW in about 4 hours, and TAS almost a year ago, so I should have probably reread them both before posting this. in both worlds, a central event is the transformation of the afterlife from a dark, joyless imprisonment of sorts to a return/dissolution of the spirit's component parts back into the world, for a sort of reincarnation into life/spirit. In both books, that transformation dissolves the self -- there is no permanent self or soul in this philosophy, and reincarnation occurs only on a molecular level (or whatever particles make up the soul; Dust in the case of His Dark Materials (Pullman)). I find this view of death intriguing personally, and remarkable that it should be so fervently espoused in my most anticipated book ever (Amber Spyglass) and by my favorite author ever (UKL) in the same 12-month period. Is this a view of death common in other fantasy works? None that I can recall, but then there are many authors I've not read. Heather * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple heyiya@earthlink.net ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Aug 29 18:44:46 2001 Received: from n21.groups.yahoo.com (n21.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.71]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA25534 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:34:20 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-259-999113629-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Aug 2001 19:33:49 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 29 Aug 2001 19:33:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 98798 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2001 19:32:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Aug 2001 19:32:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Aug 2001 19:32:18 -0000 Received: from [195.8.88.219] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15cB4F-0002v2-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:32:17 +0100 Message-ID: <003a01c130c1$36839920$db5808c3@dan> To: References: <9lhqk1+fjf0@eGroups.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:31:33 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 8c077b2c2604a6d7227389e593d86bd4 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 189 Well! This is interesting. Glad I joined the group. Please enlighten me - what is 'Dragonfly' and 'Earthsea tales'? 'The Telling' is not available in UK bookstores but I got it through Amazon. I have seen nothing of these, or of 'The Other Wind' except when I found this group. I must admit, I'm slightly downhearted to hear about the similarity to 'the ones who walk away from Omelas.' Together with 'the word for world is forest' I have found this the most difficult of UKL's writings since I got addicted to reading and rereading her in 1971. I find it disturbing that 'forest' was written after she stayed in the UK for a while! And I always feel unclear about her message in Omelas - is it a commentary on perceived inevitable weakness in all societies or a specific allegory of a specific situation? Generally her handling of dark issues such as in 'Four Ways to Forgiveness' and 'Threshold' seems to open up a way through to the light, but I always have trouble with the other 2 and re-read them less. What does anyone else think? Hannah Robins ----- Original Message ----- From: David Salo To: Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 12:53 PM Subject: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > I have just finished reading "The Other Wind". It is an > excellent book, which I can strongly recommend to anyone who likes Le > Guin's work. However, it is difficult to say more about it without > revealing too much about its contents, especially the very important > change (internal and external to the story) that forms its core. If > you thought that The Farthest Shore, Tehanu, and Dragonfly had > altered too much that was 'canonical' about Earthsea, you may have > similar problems with The Other Wind. On the other hand, if you can > accept Earthsea as a changing world rather than as a static place of > eternal verities, you are likely to find The Other Wind refreshing, > though shocking, like a slap of cold water on the face. > Like The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas, The Other Wind turns > its focus toward the best-hidden of the cruelties its characters live > with every day and accept as a condition for the way society is. In > Hardic Earthsea, that way is the way of True Names and wizards' > magic. But behind and beneath the power and the glory of the > wizards, there is a dark, shameful secret -- something which everyone > is aware of, but which is not discussed or even questioned, because > it is inconvenient to do so. The reader of the other Earthsea books > may find that he or she is a participant in this convenient act of > forgetfulness, being just as aware of this secret as any inhabitant > of Earthsea, and having put it aside for the enjoyment of wizards' > spells, heroes' adventures, and the white towers of Havnor. But Le > Guin -- perhaps feeling a little guilty herself -- now exposes it, > and uses her 'magical' power as author and narrator to change things, > framing a story that will permanently alter our understanding of > Earthsea. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Win a Marvel vs. CapCom 2 Arcade System! Click Here to Enter... http://us.click.yahoo.com/j7i9xD/o58CAA/_ZuFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Aug 29 18:44:46 2001 Received: from n18.groups.yahoo.com (n18.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.68]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA25699 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:37:09 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-260-999113797-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mr.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Aug 2001 19:36:39 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 29 Aug 2001 19:36:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 45519 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2001 19:35:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Aug 2001 19:35:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Aug 2001 19:35:23 -0000 Received: from [195.8.88.219] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15cB7R-000318-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:35:22 +0100 Message-ID: <004101c130c1$accb23a0$db5808c3@dan> To: References: <9lr7rd+lglr@eGroups.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:34:51 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Borders the Other Wind and catching up Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3958ece431ab6ca511fc64c64143381e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 193 Try 'abebooks.com'. Assuming you're ok with second hand. I just tried it for you and it offered 10 hardback copies of 'the Farthest shore' Hannah Robins ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Silvernale To: Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 3:46 PM Subject: [the-ekumen] Borders the Other Wind and catching up > I just bought a copy of Other Wind at the St Paul, MN, Borders. I > had to ask for it since they had yet to get around to shelving it. I > don't know the policy now but I worked for Borders a few years ago > and for B&N for a decade before that and sell dates were limited to a > few bestsellers. Plus, if you ever have proof that another store is > selling the book before sell date, have the bookstore call the > publisher. The publisher will then release the book for general > sale. > This has been an amazing year for Le Guin fans! All these fabulous > books to read. I'm falling way behind and loving it. > I've been trying to get a hard copy of The Farthest Shore but with no > success. Atheneum put out new hardcovers in the 90s and since first > editions of the Earthsea trilogy is unheard of, I am aiming for that > edition. Does anyone know a good web store to try? > Babbittsbooks.com has always been successful for me but have no > copies of the Farthest Shore. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Aug 29 18:46:04 2001 Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA01070 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:10:59 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-262-999119429-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Aug 2001 21:10:29 -0000 X-Sender: dsalo@softhome.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 29 Aug 2001 21:10:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 863 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2001 20:58:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Aug 2001 20:58:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO waltz.SoftHome.net) (204.144.231.8) by mta3 with SMTP; 29 Aug 2001 20:58:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 19577 invoked by uid 417); 29 Aug 2001 20:18:10 -0000 Message-ID: <20010829201810.19576.qmail@softhome.net> References: <9lhqk1+fjf0@eGroups.com> <003a01c130c1$36839920$db5808c3@dan> In-Reply-To: <003a01c130c1$36839920$db5808c3@dan> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Sender: dsalo@softhome.net From: dsalo@softhome.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:18:10 GMT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 27d4d0682e8cfdd31a65b937402a421a > I must admit, I'm slightly downhearted to hear about the similarity to 'the > ones who walk away from Omelas.' I shouldn't exaggerate the resemblance, though there is a nearly-direct reference to it at one place. I think that The Other Wind has a happier ending -- though it is still very thought provoking. David Salo ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Aug 29 18:46:04 2001 Received: from n28.groups.yahoo.com (n28.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.78]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA01411 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 14:17:25 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-263-999119815-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by f19.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Aug 2001 21:16:55 -0000 X-Sender: dsalo@softhome.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 29 Aug 2001 21:16:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 74448 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2001 21:06:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Aug 2001 21:06:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO waltz.SoftHome.net) (204.144.231.8) by mta3 with SMTP; 29 Aug 2001 21:06:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 20455 invoked by uid 417); 29 Aug 2001 20:25:42 -0000 Message-ID: <20010829202542.20454.qmail@softhome.net> References: In-Reply-To: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Sender: dsalo@softhome.net From: dsalo@softhome.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 20:25:42 GMT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 8fa98da166dc5982be643b35d4c2778f heather w writes: > I was struck by a similarity between The Other Wind and Philip > Pullman's Amber Spyglass and wondered if anyone else has read them > both. My wife, Dorothea, and I have, and we both noticed the similarity, though I was more inclined to attribute the resemblance to chance: both drawing on classical underworld accounts, and both perhaps having similar philosophical viewpoints - although Pullman's book is more obviously polemical, with specific philosophical and institutional targets in mind. I think Le Guin's target is more nearly herself, or her assumptions when she started writing these books back in the '60s; the development, I think, reflects a growing engagement with the characters, and some feeling that they ought to be treated better. A Wizard of Earthsea is, perhaps, more "anthropological", with the author looking at the world with more distance, as a curious people who just happen to live in such-and-such a world, and have such-and-such beliefs. At risk of seeming slightly off topic, I should note that this month is "Ghost Month" in China, when Chinese Taoists and Buddhists make offerings to redeem their departed parents and ancestors. David Salo ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Aug 29 18:44:46 2001 Received: from n35.groups.yahoo.com (n35.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.85]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA26522 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:54:39 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-261-999114845-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Aug 2001 19:54:05 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 29 Aug 2001 19:54:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 59293 invoked from network); 29 Aug 2001 19:52:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 Aug 2001 19:52:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta3 with SMTP; 29 Aug 2001 19:52:47 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-124.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.124]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f7TJqiP05398 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:52:44 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B8D5747.29D8695@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 13:57:44 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 747e3224f60c5d87fcbc497b02c5662b Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 201 heather w wrote: > I was struck by a similarity between The Other Wind and Philip > Pullman's Amber Spyglass and wondered if anyone else has read them > both. I just finished The Other Wind, and I'd agree with you about the similarity to The Amber Spyglass. Except I didn't enjoy Pullman's series very much, and I (obviously) love Earthsea. OK, everyone else, hurry up and read The Other Wind, so we can discuss it w/out ruining the story for you! Grey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Aug 29 18:48:11 2001 Received: from n16.groups.yahoo.com (n16.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.66]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA12837 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:19:10 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-264-999134318-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mo.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Aug 2001 01:18:40 -0000 X-Sender: stkaufman@mindspring.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 30 Aug 2001 01:18:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 15999 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2001 01:17:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Aug 2001 01:17:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO granger.mail.mindspring.net) (207.69.200.148) by mta2 with SMTP; 30 Aug 2001 01:17:47 -0000 Received: from oemcomputer (user-2injg08.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.192.8]) by granger.mail.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA32166 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001a01c130f1$9c8ca880$08c079a5@oemcomputer> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 From: "Stephen R. Kaufman" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:17:53 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 385230ae709536695b95abe3bb004822 I'm trying to locate "The Ones Who Walked Away..." I think it's a short story. If so, what short story collection is it in. Thanks. Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Aug 30 11:48:55 2001 Received: from n4.groups.yahoo.com (n4.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.54]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA14252 for ; Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:11:07 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-265-999137433-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Aug 2001 02:10:37 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 30 Aug 2001 02:10:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 69024 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2001 02:09:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Aug 2001 02:09:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp7vepub.verizon.net) (206.46.170.28) by mta2 with SMTP; 30 Aug 2001 02:09:40 -0000 Received: from zion.bellatlantic.net (pool-64-222-82-190.burl.east.verizon.net [64.222.82.190]) by smtp7vepub.verizon.net with ESMTP for ; id VAA12394952 Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:09:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010829221435.00a884b0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Sender: jdawley@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001a01c130f1$9c8ca880$08c079a5@oemcomputer> From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:15:38 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f463acad53d8aba91aecc5c047627ba8 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6 At 09:17 PM 8/29/01 -0400, Steve wrote: >I'm trying to locate "The Ones Who Walked Away..." I think it's a short >story. If so, what short story collection is it in. Thanks. It is included in *The Wind's Twelve Quarters*, as well as numerous collections that are assigned in college English classes. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Massive Attack -- Mezzanine "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Aug 30 11:49:26 2001 Received: from n34.groups.yahoo.com (n34.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.84]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA06140 for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:30:37 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-266-999192607-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Aug 2001 17:30:07 -0000 X-Sender: Judyldubois@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 30 Aug 2001 17:30:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 1464 invoked from network); 30 Aug 2001 17:24:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Aug 2001 17:24:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r08.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.104) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 Aug 2001 17:24:59 -0000 Received: from Judyldubois@aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id r.14b.247061 (16641) for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <14b.247061.28bfd0e2@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 115 From: judyldubois@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:24:50 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 109 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 4d2bacdcb996d693b86149012446ac30 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 142 In reply to Robin's reading of The Ones Who Walked Away from Omelas, I don't find the story that negative. It seems to me that Le Guin shows great faith in human nature when she states that some people living in an ideal society would give it up and walk into a dark unknown if they thought that their happiness was bought at the price of someone else's misery. Those people who walk away are an almost daily inspiration to me. Judy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 09:51:34 2001 Received: from n17.groups.yahoo.com (n17.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.67]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA14104 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 01:52:21 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-267-999247910-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 31 Aug 2001 08:51:50 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 31 Aug 2001 08:51:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 52413 invoked from network); 31 Aug 2001 08:51:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 31 Aug 2001 08:51:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.126) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 Aug 2001 08:51:49 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.72.241]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:51:59 +0100 Message-ID: <3B8F4F7F.980DAA9@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <001a01c130f1$9c8ca880$08c079a5@oemcomputer> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:49:04 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f5f24e9b040d9e9048a4218837ade343 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 166 "Stephen R. Kaufman" wrote: > I'm trying to locate "The Ones Who Walked Away..." But note that if you come across the Panther two volume paperback edition, it's volume two that you want. >>>ALERT! >>>NIT BEING PICKED! >>> it is called "The Ones who Walk Away from Omelas". As an aide-memoire, note that much of the story is cast in the present tense. << FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 09:53:45 2001 Received: from n2.groups.yahoo.com (n2.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.52]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA11100 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:10:37 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-268-999288606-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hi.egroups.com with NNFMP; 31 Aug 2001 20:10:07 -0000 X-Sender: mairen@bigpond.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 31 Aug 2001 20:10:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 86769 invoked from network); 31 Aug 2001 20:08:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 Aug 2001 20:08:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailin6.bigpond.com) (139.134.6.79) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 Aug 2001 20:08:51 -0000 Received: from dialup ([139.134.4.52]) by mailin6.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GIY88V00.673 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 06:14:55 +1000 Received: from FLPP-p-144-134-19-234.prem.tmns.net.au ([144.134.19.234]) by mail5.bigpond.com(MailRouter V2.9i 9/414366); 01 Sep 2001 06:08:46 To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20010829202542.20454.qmail@softhome.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal From: "Maire" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 06:07:29 +1000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 2d6a7a2cf0e71fcaef41ed82f8b5c2a7 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 251 Hallo everyone, Iam afriad I have been lurking for some time. This is because I have not read much of le Guin's works, yet, at the same time, I very often describe her as my favourite author. I can just tell, ok : ) I have been meaning to ask people where to start... I read Always Coming Home and the earthsea quartet as a early teen, and her books had a profound effect on my- very graeful to my mother for bringing mr them home. Now, Im afriad the reason I came out of lurkdome at this moment is to point out something rather silly. I am a member of thislist, obviously, and i am also a member of the dark Materials list. As I was flicking through my mail, I came across this post, comparing le Guin to Pullman in The Other Wind and the Amber Spyglass. I then went to the next email, which was about the group comparing JK Rowling to PUllman... the next email being from the Pullman list. I thought this rather funny... if Le Guin is being compared to Pullman, and Pullman to Rowling.... does that mean that Le Guin and Rowling have somethingin common? ANyway, it tickled me at the time. BTW, I would appreciate help with where to start. (I have read The Word for World is Forest, as well, and I have most of her books). I didnt want to just leap in anywhere, and I have been wanting to get started for ages Maire Currently Reading: The Riddle-Master Trilogy by Patricia McKilip; Half the Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; Elric by Moorcock; Threshold by Sara Douglass; The Master-Harper of Pern by Anne McCaffrey Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; The Keepers by Pauline Kirk; Ender;s Game by OSC -----Original Message----- From: dsalo@softhome.net [mailto:dsalo@softhome.net] Sent: Thursday, 30 August 2001 6:26 AM To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind heather w writes: > I was struck by a similarity between The Other Wind and Philip > Pullman's Amber Spyglass and wondered if anyone else has read them > both. My wife, Dorothea, and I have, and we both noticed the similarity, though I was more inclined to attribute the resemblance to chance: both drawing on classical underworld accounts, and both perhaps having similar philosophical viewpoints - although Pullman's book is more obviously polemical, with specific philosophical and institutional targets in mind. I think Le Guin's target is more nearly herself, or her assumptions when she started writing these books back in the '60s; the development, I think, reflects a growing engagement with the characters, and some feeling that they ought to be treated better. A Wizard of Earthsea is, perhaps, more "anthropological", with the author looking at the world with more distance, as a curious people who just happen to live in such-and-such a world, and have such-and-such beliefs. At risk of seeming slightly off topic, I should note that this month is "Ghost Month" in China, when Chinese Taoists and Buddhists make offerings to redeem their departed parents and ancestors. David Salo Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT You can, too! Start here... Height: 345678 ft 01234567891011in Weight: lbs. kg. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Learn Trading Tips the Professional Traders Use! Free Newsletter from Optionetics.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/q1ufhB/ZR9CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 09:53:45 2001 Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12229 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:31:21 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-269-999289851-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 31 Aug 2001 20:30:51 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 31 Aug 2001 20:30:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 39664 invoked from network); 31 Aug 2001 20:30:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 31 Aug 2001 20:30:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 31 Aug 2001 20:30:30 -0000 Received: from [208.8.55.5] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 8883794 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:33:56 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010831133022.007fa7a0@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <20010829202542.20454.qmail@softhome.net> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:30:22 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a484a5700f945018eec589abd82e2315 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 270 At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, you wrote: >Hallo everyone, >next email being from the Pullman list. I thought this rather funny... if Le >Guin is being compared to Pullman, and Pullman to Rowling.... does that mean >that Le Guin and Rowling have somethingin common? ANyway, it tickled me at >the time. On the surface anyway--both have written a work featuring a young male (JK Rowling seems to have no problems about this, so far, while LeGuin seems to have regretted choosing to write about a male) who goes to wizard school and has adventures there. LeGuin's work is one of those "young adult" books that adults get the most out of while Rowlings wrote a book for the under 8 reader. At least, this adult got nothing out of it and finished it only under protest. >BTW, I would appreciate help with where to start. (I have read The Word for >World is Forest, as well, and I have most of her books). I didnt want to >just leap in anywhere, and I have been wanting to get started for ages >Maire > >Currently Reading: The Riddle-Master Trilogy by Patricia McKilip; Half the >Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; Elric by Moorcock; Threshold by Sara >Douglass; The Master-Harper of Pern by Anne McCaffrey >Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; The >Keepers by Pauline Kirk; Ender;s Game by OSC > > -----Original Message----- > From: dsalo@softhome.net [mailto:dsalo@softhome.net] > Sent: Thursday, 30 August 2001 6:26 AM > To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > > > > heather w writes: > > > I was struck by a similarity between The Other Wind and Philip > > Pullman's Amber Spyglass and wondered if anyone else has read them > > both. > > My wife, Dorothea, and I have, and we both noticed the similarity, > though I was more inclined to attribute the resemblance to chance: both > drawing on classical underworld accounts, and both perhaps having similar > philosophical viewpoints - although Pullman's book is more obviously > polemical, with specific philosophical and institutional targets in mind. > I think Le Guin's target is more nearly herself, or her assumptions when > she started writing these books back in the '60s; the development, I >think, > reflects a growing engagement with the characters, and some feeling that > they ought to be treated better. A Wizard of Earthsea is, perhaps, more > "anthropological", with the author looking at the world with more >distance, > as a curious people who just happen to live in such-and-such a world, and > have such-and-such beliefs. > > At risk of seeming slightly off topic, I should note that this month is > "Ghost Month" in China, when Chinese Taoists and Buddhists make offerings > to redeem their departed parents and ancestors. > > > David Salo > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > You can, too! Start here... > > Height: > 345678 ft 01234567891011in > > Weight: > lbs. kg. > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > -=Fred=- On the old plum tree, One blossom at a time, The spring thaw is born - Ransetsu - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> The Nissan Sentra Everything but compact http://NissanDriven.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/3vsIKC/txlCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 09:53:45 2001 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12351 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:33:56 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-270-999290006-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 31 Aug 2001 20:33:26 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 31 Aug 2001 20:33:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 6367 invoked from network); 31 Aug 2001 20:32:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 Aug 2001 20:32:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta2 with SMTP; 31 Aug 2001 20:32:41 -0000 Received: from [208.8.55.5] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 8883889 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:36:04 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010831133233.007df990@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <20010829202542.20454.qmail@softhome.net> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:32:33 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 5e520f5fbeb7e69c4d1fa441639a1b1d Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 271 At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, you wrote: >BTW, I would appreciate help with where to start. (I have read The Word for >World is Forest, as well, and I have most of her books). I didnt want to >just leap in anywhere, and I have been wanting to get started for ages >Maire Should have added this to previous message. Yo can always start with the LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, one of the best SF books ever written, or with "The Earthsea Trilogy," a superb fantasy series. -=Fred=- On the old plum tree, One blossom at a time, The spring thaw is born - Ransetsu - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Win a Marvel vs. CapCom 2 Arcade System! Click Here to Enter... http://us.click.yahoo.com/g9XZmB/o58CAA/_ZuFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 09:53:45 2001 Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA13967 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 14:05:57 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-271-999291925-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 31 Aug 2001 21:05:26 -0000 X-Sender: Hiran@hsgk.org X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 31 Aug 2001 21:05:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 20884 invoked from network); 31 Aug 2001 21:05:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 Aug 2001 21:05:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net) (194.217.242.90) by mta1 with SMTP; 31 Aug 2001 21:05:12 -0000 Received: from sampath.demon.co.uk ([193.237.130.232] helo=vaio) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 15cvTT-000MPm-0W for the-ekumen@egroups.com; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:05:11 +0100 Message-ID: <005501c13268$ddabdca0$e882edc1@vaio> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "Hiran Karunaratna" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:04:10 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] The other wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 8aeba457ba83918067fc629ecf3e81b0 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 281 Could some one in the UK confirm if it is possible to buy "The Other Wind" in the UK Thanks Hiran [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Win a Marvel vs. CapCom 2 Arcade System! Click Here to Enter... http://us.click.yahoo.com/g9XZmB/o58CAA/_ZuFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 09:54:06 2001 Received: from n15.groups.yahoo.com (n15.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.65]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA18301 for ; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 15:34:42 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-272-999297250-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 31 Aug 2001 22:34:10 -0000 X-Sender: iwr77@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 31 Aug 2001 22:34:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 17796 invoked from network); 31 Aug 2001 22:34:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 Aug 2001 22:34:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.72) by mta1 with SMTP; 31 Aug 2001 22:34:05 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 15:34:05 -0700 Received: from 65.9.172.44 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:34:05 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.9.172.44] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2001 22:34:05.0703 (UTC) FILETIME=[0ACBB170:01C1326D] From: "Ian W. Riddell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:34:05 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 29c85fca12034dfdd37b28f831438a84 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 303 >From: Fred Runk >Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind >Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:30:22 -0700 > >At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, you wrote: > >Hallo everyone, > > >next email being from the Pullman list. I thought this rather funny... if >Le > >Guin is being compared to Pullman, and Pullman to Rowling.... does that >mean > >that Le Guin and Rowling have somethingin common? ANyway, it tickled me >at > >the time. > >On the surface anyway--both have written a work featuring a young male (JK >Rowling seems to have no problems about this, so far, while LeGuin seems to >have regretted choosing to write about a male) who goes to wizard school >and has adventures there. LeGuin's work is one of those "young adult" >books that adults get the most out of while Rowlings wrote a book for the >under 8 reader. > >At least, this adult got nothing out of it and finished it only under >protest. > > > > I, however, loved it (Harry Potter). Although I really wouldn't compare it to Le Guin at all. Completely different tone and different issues being dealt with. Besides, any author who can get a 10-year-old boy to read a 700-page novel is cool in my book blessings widdy ex-children's bookseller _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Win a Marvel vs. CapCom 2 Arcade System! Click Here to Enter... http://us.click.yahoo.com/g9XZmB/o58CAA/_ZuFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 09:55:51 2001 Received: from n29.groups.yahoo.com (n29.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.79]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA05822 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 01:33:40 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-273-999333189-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by b05.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2001 08:33:09 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 1 Sep 2001 08:33:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 60458 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2001 08:33:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2001 08:33:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Sep 2001 08:33:08 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.143] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15d6DC-0005ew-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:33:06 +0100 Message-ID: <001601c132c0$a10a4900$8f847ed4@dan> To: References: <20010829202542.20454.qmail@softhome.net> <3.0.5.32.20010831133022.007fa7a0@208.2.166.100> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 09:32:24 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] leGuin & Rowling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 5a91b1760cf997f0e6abfe76ec343fef Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 368 Bothe UKL and JKR are fine writers - but exceedingly different! I adore the Harry Potter books as splendid and cleverly written escapism. And in this country it has had the effect of reconciling many boys to the activity of reading novels, as well as being popular with girls and adults (I would expect few under-8's to be able to deal with them unless they are read aloud) But all the different Le Guin books - ekumen, Earthsea and others deal in some way with reality seen from another, deeper perspective 'through a glass darkly'- I read Harry Potter to escape from life but Ged to reconcile me with it. Other views? Hannah Robins ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Runk To: Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 9:30 PM Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, you wrote: > >Hallo everyone, > > >next email being from the Pullman list. I thought this rather funny... if Le > >Guin is being compared to Pullman, and Pullman to Rowling.... does that mean > >that Le Guin and Rowling have somethingin common? ANyway, it tickled me at > >the time. > > On the surface anyway--both have written a work featuring a young male (JK > Rowling seems to have no problems about this, so far, while LeGuin seems to > have regretted choosing to write about a male) who goes to wizard school > and has adventures there. LeGuin's work is one of those "young adult" > books that adults get the most out of while Rowlings wrote a book for the > under 8 reader. > > At least, this adult got nothing out of it and finished it only under protest. > > > > > > > > >BTW, I would appreciate help with where to start. (I have read The Word for > >World is Forest, as well, and I have most of her books). I didnt want to > >just leap in anywhere, and I have been wanting to get started for ages > >Maire > > > >Currently Reading: The Riddle-Master Trilogy by Patricia McKilip; Half the > >Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; Elric by Moorcock; Threshold by Sara > >Douglass; The Master-Harper of Pern by Anne McCaffrey > >Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; The > >Keepers by Pauline Kirk; Ender;s Game by OSC > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dsalo@softhome.net [mailto:dsalo@softhome.net] > > Sent: Thursday, 30 August 2001 6:26 AM > > To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > > > > > > > > heather w writes: > > > > > I was struck by a similarity between The Other Wind and Philip > > > Pullman's Amber Spyglass and wondered if anyone else has read them > > > both. > > > > My wife, Dorothea, and I have, and we both noticed the similarity, > > though I was more inclined to attribute the resemblance to chance: both > > drawing on classical underworld accounts, and both perhaps having similar > > philosophical viewpoints - although Pullman's book is more obviously > > polemical, with specific philosophical and institutional targets in mind. > > I think Le Guin's target is more nearly herself, or her assumptions when > > she started writing these books back in the '60s; the development, I > >think, > > reflects a growing engagement with the characters, and some feeling that > > they ought to be treated better. A Wizard of Earthsea is, perhaps, more > > "anthropological", with the author looking at the world with more > >distance, > > as a curious people who just happen to live in such-and-such a world, and > > have such-and-such beliefs. > > > > At risk of seeming slightly off topic, I should note that this month is > > "Ghost Month" in China, when Chinese Taoists and Buddhists make offerings > > to redeem their departed parents and ancestors. > > > > > > David Salo > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > You can, too! Start here... > > > > Height: > > 345678 ft 01234567891011in > > > > Weight: > > lbs. kg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > -=Fred=- > > On the old plum tree, > One blossom at a time, > The spring thaw is born > - Ransetsu - > > email: fredr@gci-net.com > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> The Nissan Sentra Everything but compact http://NissanDriven.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/3vsIKC/txlCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 09:55:51 2001 Received: from n7.groups.yahoo.com (n7.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.57]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA05996 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 01:43:23 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-274-999333773-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2001 08:42:53 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 1 Sep 2001 08:42:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 56737 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2001 08:42:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2001 08:42:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Sep 2001 08:42:51 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.143] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15d6Mc-0005lG-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:42:50 +0100 Message-ID: <001f01c132c1$fd2630e0$8f847ed4@dan> To: References: <20010829202542.20454.qmail@softhome.net> <3.0.5.32.20010831133233.007df990@208.2.166.100> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 09:42:06 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 54352500fb7dcaad63181de8974817cc Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 369 personally I read first The Wizard of Earthsea (first of the Earthsea books) and then Rocannon's World. This was in 71/72, so not much else was around. Cetainly The Left Hand of Darkness is very very fine, but judging from some of the other books you say you're reading I would go for Earthsea or one of the earlier science fiction books first to get your appetite up. Chronologically, in so far as that applies, I guess the Ekumen books go Rocannon's World Planet of Exile City of Illusions The Left Hand of Darkness The Disposessed Word for World is Forest Four Ways to Forgiveness (my current favourite, but maybe that's reading from an older woman's perspective) The Telling (excluding the short stories). Hannah Robins ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Runk To: Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 9:32 PM Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, you wrote: > >BTW, I would appreciate help with where to start. (I have read The Word for > >World is Forest, as well, and I have most of her books). I didnt want to > >just leap in anywhere, and I have been wanting to get started for ages > >Maire > > > Should have added this to previous message. Yo can always start with the > LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, one of the best SF books ever written, or with "The > Earthsea Trilogy," a superb fantasy series. > > -=Fred=- > > On the old plum tree, > One blossom at a time, > The spring thaw is born > - Ransetsu - > > email: fredr@gci-net.com > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 09:55:51 2001 Received: from n26.groups.yahoo.com (n26.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.76]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA06045 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 01:47:36 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-275-999334025-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by fg.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2001 08:47:05 -0000 X-Sender: mairen@bigpond.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 1 Sep 2001 08:47:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 62059 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2001 08:47:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2001 08:47:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailin9.bigpond.com) (139.134.6.86) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Sep 2001 08:46:59 -0000 Received: from dialup ([139.134.4.56]) by mailin9.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GIZ7C900.663 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:52:57 +1000 Received: from WYPP-p-144-134-9-90.prem.tmns.net.au ([144.134.9.90]) by mail3.bigpond.com(MailRouter V2.9i 5/763432); 01 Sep 2001 18:46:48 To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <001f01c132c1$fd2630e0$8f847ed4@dan> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal From: "Maire" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:45:24 +1000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 0a11777b2e2ec34c69a7ec88687f0835 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 370 ohh.. sorry, my current reading isnt probably the best way to tell my tastes. I read a lot of stuff from BOTM on lists, or just to see what the fuss is about. My favourites are soft sf (sociolofical/ anthopological science fiction) Maire Currently Reading: The Riddle-Master Trilogy by Patricia McKilip; Half the Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; Elric by Moorcock; Threshold by Sara Douglass; The Master-Harper of Pern by Anne McCaffrey Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; The Keepers by Pauline Kirk; Ender;s Game by OSC -----Original Message----- From: Robins - one of [mailto:robins@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2001 6:42 PM To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind personally I read first The Wizard of Earthsea (first of the Earthsea books) and then Rocannon's World. This was in 71/72, so not much else was around. Cetainly The Left Hand of Darkness is very very fine, but judging from some of the other books you say you're reading I would go for Earthsea or one of the earlier science fiction books first to get your appetite up. Chronologically, in so far as that applies, I guess the Ekumen books go Rocannon's World Planet of Exile City of Illusions The Left Hand of Darkness The Disposessed Word for World is Forest Four Ways to Forgiveness (my current favourite, but maybe that's reading from an older woman's perspective) The Telling (excluding the short stories). Hannah Robins ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Runk To: Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 9:32 PM Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, you wrote: > >BTW, I would appreciate help with where to start. (I have read The Word for > >World is Forest, as well, and I have most of her books). I didnt want to > >just leap in anywhere, and I have been wanting to get started for ages > >Maire > > > Should have added this to previous message. Yo can always start with the > LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, one of the best SF books ever written, or with "The > Earthsea Trilogy," a superb fantasy series. > > -=Fred=- > > On the old plum tree, > One blossom at a time, > The spring thaw is born > - Ransetsu - > > email: fredr@gci-net.com > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Start here... Height: 345678 ft 01234567891011in Weight: lbs. kg. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 09:55:51 2001 Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA06148 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 01:53:52 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-276-999334402-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2001 08:53:22 -0000 X-Sender: mairen@bigpond.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 1 Sep 2001 08:53:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 69729 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2001 08:53:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2001 08:53:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailin7.bigpond.com) (139.134.6.95) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Sep 2001 08:53:20 -0000 Received: from dialup ([139.134.4.56]) by mailin7.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GIZ7E400.4HT for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:54:04 +1000 Received: from WYPP-p-144-134-9-90.prem.tmns.net.au ([144.134.9.90]) by mail3.bigpond.com(MailRouter V2.9i 5/763905); 01 Sep 2001 18:47:55 To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <001f01c132c1$fd2630e0$8f847ed4@dan> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal From: "Maire" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 18:46:31 +1000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ba31c5e2305d5ca4e007b1c4d9541362 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 371 Thanks Robin... do people agree that this is a good way to rea the books? In chronological order (according to the Ekumen) ... or is that not the order she wrote them in, and if not, is that a better way? Maire Currently Reading: The Riddle-Master Trilogy by Patricia McKilip; Half the Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; Elric by Moorcock; Threshold by Sara Douglass; The Master-Harper of Pern by Anne McCaffrey Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; The Keepers by Pauline Kirk; Ender;s Game by OSC -----Original Message----- From: Robins - one of [mailto:robins@clara.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2001 6:42 PM To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind personally I read first The Wizard of Earthsea (first of the Earthsea books) and then Rocannon's World. This was in 71/72, so not much else was around. Cetainly The Left Hand of Darkness is very very fine, but judging from some of the other books you say you're reading I would go for Earthsea or one of the earlier science fiction books first to get your appetite up. Chronologically, in so far as that applies, I guess the Ekumen books go Rocannon's World Planet of Exile City of Illusions The Left Hand of Darkness The Disposessed Word for World is Forest Four Ways to Forgiveness (my current favourite, but maybe that's reading from an older woman's perspective) The Telling (excluding the short stories). Hannah Robins ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Runk To: Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 9:32 PM Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, you wrote: > >BTW, I would appreciate help with where to start. (I have read The Word for > >World is Forest, as well, and I have most of her books). I didnt want to > >just leap in anywhere, and I have been wanting to get started for ages > >Maire > > > Should have added this to previous message. Yo can always start with the > LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, one of the best SF books ever written, or with "The > Earthsea Trilogy," a superb fantasy series. > > -=Fred=- > > On the old plum tree, > One blossom at a time, > The spring thaw is born > - Ransetsu - > > email: fredr@gci-net.com > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Start here... Height: 345678 ft 01234567891011in Weight: lbs. kg. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 09:55:51 2001 Received: from n17.groups.yahoo.com (n17.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.67]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA06260 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 01:59:12 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-277-999334722-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2001 08:58:42 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 1 Sep 2001 08:58:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 77942 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2001 08:58:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2001 08:58:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Sep 2001 08:58:41 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.143] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15d6bv-0006AF-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 01 Sep 2001 09:58:39 +0100 Message-ID: <008401c132c4$32fe7400$8f847ed4@dan> To: References: <14b.247061.28bfd0e2@aol.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 09:57:58 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 109 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: c3530b344c85347b5a7226d2f6d78dd9 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 372 judy et al Yeh - walking away - ok - but that doesn't do anything for the feeble minded child in the cellar, who leaves me miserable. So am I being like Dr Haber? I don't think so - George Orr did change things, in the end he didn't walk away - he even didn't walk away from Dr Haber. And in Four Ways to Forgiveness Havzhiva did something for the supressed women - in an appropriate way. One of my favourite quotes from UKL (not that I get to quote them often because up to now although I know some who read her I haven't met any who shared my enthusiasm - who said obsession?) is from The Left Hand of Darkness when Ashe comes to get Genry ai to ask him to take money to Harth. It says 'he had just taught me a lesson: that shifgrethor can be played on the level of ethics, and that the expert player will win'. Not walking away -just doing the appropriate thing But I'm still willing to be convinced. And who is the feeble minded child in the cellar - the poor? the deprived? Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 109 > In reply to Robin's reading of The Ones Who Walked Away from Omelas, I don't > find the story that negative. It seems to me that Le Guin shows great faith > in human nature when she states that some people living in an ideal society > would give it up and walk into a dark unknown if they thought that their > happiness was bought at the price of someone else's misery. Those people who > walk away are an almost daily inspiration to me. Judy > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 09:55:51 2001 Received: from n32.groups.yahoo.com (n32.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.82]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA06339 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 02:01:51 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-278-999334881-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2001 09:01:21 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 1 Sep 2001 09:01:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 37102 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2001 09:01:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2001 09:01:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Sep 2001 09:01:20 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.143] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15d6eU-0006Cs-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 01 Sep 2001 10:01:18 +0100 Message-ID: <009a01c132c4$91a3e260$8f847ed4@dan> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 10:00:37 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ab24a76e51b35049c6b408e7ecb7951b Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 373 Maire and everybody by the way, Robins is my surname it's just that the whole family share the e-mail adress - my name is Hannah Hannah currently reading A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth - long, but worth it ----- Original Message ----- From: Maire To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 9:45 AM Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > ohh.. sorry, my current reading isnt probably the best way to tell my > tastes. I read a lot of stuff from BOTM on lists, or just to see what the > fuss is about. My favourites are soft sf (sociolofical/ anthopological > science fiction) > Maire > > Currently Reading: The Riddle-Master Trilogy by Patricia McKilip; Half the > Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; Elric by Moorcock; Threshold by Sara > Douglass; The Master-Harper of Pern by Anne McCaffrey > Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; The > Keepers by Pauline Kirk; Ender;s Game by OSC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robins - one of [mailto:robins@clara.co.uk] > Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2001 6:42 PM > To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > > > personally I read first The Wizard of Earthsea (first of the Earthsea > books) > and then Rocannon's World. This was in 71/72, so not much else was > around. > Cetainly The Left Hand of Darkness is very very fine, but judging from > some > of the other books you say you're reading I would go for Earthsea or one > of > the earlier science fiction books first to get your appetite up. > Chronologically, in so far as that applies, I guess the Ekumen books go > Rocannon's World > Planet of Exile > City of Illusions > The Left Hand of Darkness > The Disposessed > Word for World is Forest > Four Ways to Forgiveness (my current favourite, but maybe that's reading > from an older woman's perspective) > The Telling > (excluding the short stories). > Hannah Robins > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fred Runk > To: > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 9:32 PM > Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > > > > At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, you wrote: > > >BTW, I would appreciate help with where to start. (I have read The Word > for > > >World is Forest, as well, and I have most of her books). I didnt want > to > > >just leap in anywhere, and I have been wanting to get started for ages > > >Maire > > > > > > Should have added this to previous message. Yo can always start with > the > > LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, one of the best SF books ever written, or with > "The > > Earthsea Trilogy," a superb fantasy series. > > > > -=Fred=- > > > > On the old plum tree, > > One blossom at a time, > > The spring thaw is born > > - Ransetsu - > > > > email: fredr@gci-net.com > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > Start here... > > Height: > 345678 ft 01234567891011in > > Weight: > lbs. kg. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> The Nissan Sentra Everything but compact http://NissanDriven.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/3vsIKC/txlCAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 10:04:22 2001 Received: from n33.groups.yahoo.com (n33.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.83]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA17019 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:01:40 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-279-999367269-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ei.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2001 18:01:09 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 1 Sep 2001 18:01:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 55057 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2001 18:01:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2001 18:01:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Sep 2001 18:01:08 -0000 Received: from [208.2.167.181] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 8998307 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 01 Sep 2001 11:04:33 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010901110059.007fa8f0@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 11:00:59 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: e490b0345c8a0582d86b565cc73902e6 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 417 At 06:34 PM 8/31/01 -0400, you wrote: >I, however, loved it (Harry Potter). Although I really wouldn't compare it >to Le Guin at all. Completely different tone and different issues being >dealt with. I have met other adults who like it also. Personally, I can't see it, but different strokes as they say... >Besides, any author who can get a 10-year-old boy to read a 700-page novel >is cool in my book Perhaps that's the problem. My edition had nothing like 700 pages. That was one of its better aspects--it was short. Perhaps mine was the abridged version with all the good parts cut out. > >blessings > >widdy >ex-children's bookseller > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > -=Fred=- On the old plum tree, One blossom at a time, The spring thaw is born - Ransetsu - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Win a Marvel vs. CapCom 2 Arcade System! Click Here to Enter... http://us.click.yahoo.com/g9XZmB/o58CAA/_ZuFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 10:04:23 2001 Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA17499 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:26:03 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-280-999368732-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2001 18:25:32 -0000 X-Sender: mairen@bigpond.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 1 Sep 2001 18:25:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 10179 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2001 18:25:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2001 18:25:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailin1.bigpond.com) (139.134.6.21) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Sep 2001 18:25:30 -0000 Received: from dialup ([139.134.4.55]) by mailin1.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GIZY4N00.C3N for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 04:31:35 +1000 Received: from FLPP-p-144-134-20-100.prem.tmns.net.au ([144.134.20.100]) by mail4.bigpond.com(MailRouter V2.9i 7/11296316); 02 Sep 2001 04:25:41 To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010901110059.007fa8f0@208.2.166.100> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal From: "Maire" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 04:23:55 +1000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 429bf20b80f4ab49078fa497658922d5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 420 The books in the Harry Potter series are of very different lengths... one of them is about 300? and then the next one (i think) is very thick. Maire Currently Reading: The Riddle-Master Trilogy by Patricia McKilip; Half the Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; Threshold by Sara Douglass; The Eyre Affair by some bloke; 18th Gardner Dozois Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; The Keepers by Pauline Kirk; Ender;s Game by OSC -----Original Message----- From: Fred Runk [mailto:fredr@gci-net.com] Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2001 4:01 AM To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind At 06:34 PM 8/31/01 -0400, you wrote: >I, however, loved it (Harry Potter). Although I really wouldn't compare it >to Le Guin at all. Completely different tone and different issues being >dealt with. I have met other adults who like it also. Personally, I can't see it, but different strokes as they say... >Besides, any author who can get a 10-year-old boy to read a 700-page novel >is cool in my book Perhaps that's the problem. My edition had nothing like 700 pages. That was one of its better aspects--it was short. Perhaps mine was the abridged version with all the good parts cut out. > >blessings > >widdy >ex-children's bookseller > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > -=Fred=- On the old plum tree, One blossom at a time, The spring thaw is born - Ransetsu - email: fredr@gci-net.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 01 10:04:23 2001 Received: from n1.groups.yahoo.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA17592 for ; Sat, 1 Sep 2001 11:30:17 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-281-999368987-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Sep 2001 18:29:47 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 1 Sep 2001 18:29:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 89665 invoked from network); 1 Sep 2001 18:29:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Sep 2001 18:29:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp7vepub.verizon.net) (206.46.170.28) by mta2 with SMTP; 1 Sep 2001 18:29:45 -0000 Received: from zion.bellatlantic.net ([64.222.81.234]) by smtp7vepub.verizon.net with ESMTP for ; id NAA14167907 Sat, 1 Sep 2001 13:29:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010901133718.00a95ec0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Sender: jdawley@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010831133022.007fa7a0@208.2.166.100> References: <20010829202542.20454.qmail@softhome.net> From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 14:35:36 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Le Guin and Rowling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 1b581293c5f27d317f048a7f827c092c Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 421 At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, Maire wrote: > >If Le Guin is being compared to Pullman, and Pullman to Rowling.... does > >that mean that Le Guin and Rowling have something in common? ANyway, > >it tickled me at the time. And at 01:30 PM 8/31/01 -0700, Fred Runk wrote: >On the surface anyway--both have written a work featuring a young male (JK >Rowling seems to have no problems about this, so far, while LeGuin seems to >have regretted choosing to write about a male) who goes to wizard school >and has adventures there. LeGuin's work is one of those "young adult" >books that adults get the most out of while Rowlings wrote a book for the >under 8 reader. > >At least, this adult got nothing out of it and finished it only under protest. Le Guin has actually commented on the resemblance between her Earthsea books and the Harry Potter series in Book Magazine (full article available online at http://www.bookmagazine.com/issue12/trailblazer.shtml): "This year's phenomenon of publishing, J.K Rowling's Harry Potter books, both pleases and puzzles Ursula Le Guin. 'I'm glad kids are reading,' she says. 'But when grownups sit around saying that there's never been anything like Harry Potter, well, gee, I had a wizard school in 1968 (in *A Wizard of Earthsea*). These people simply haven't been reading this stuff. They've been sneering at fantasy until the huge success of a fantasy made them read it. 'And then they say there's nothing like this, and it breaks my heart. When I think of all the great fantasies around. And [J.K.] Rowling has certainly read me; it's obvious she's read me.' " I think what she's getting at, somewhat indirectly, is the sense that Harry Potter is a not-so-subtle collection of borrowings from earlier works that inexplicably rocketed to the top of the best-seller lists. Certainly when I read *Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone* I kept thinking to myself, "I've seen this before and done better." But I disagree that Rowling "wrote a book for the under 8 reader." These books have become such a phenomenon, the talk of the publishing world, because they appeal to adults as much as they do to children. I've spent quite a lot of time wondering why that is, and reached no firm conclusions so far. However, I have a hunch that it is partly because they are indeed "escapism" in the sense that Hollywood blockbusters are -- they take the status quo as a template, superficially twist a few elements of it to provide a taste of the exotic and end with the hero on top and the Order of Things restored. In addition, I think the streak of nastiness that runs through the books appeals to many adult readers. The Dursleys and the Slytherins (and others) are there to be hated, and unfortunately I think many people enjoy singling out an Other (or Others) and hating it without reservation. Le Guin's work is not entirely free of cardboard cutout villains. I have always felt that the depiction of Davidson in *The Word for World Is Forest* was so heavy-handed that it fatally marred the book. But in general I think Le Guin does a pretty good job of psychologically investigating why people do bad things and pointing out how "they" could easily be "us." Something that Rowling, at least in the first Harry Potter book (and from what I have gathered, the others also), does not do. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Massive Attack -- Mezzanine "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 02 19:43:01 2001 Received: from n26.groups.yahoo.com (n26.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.76]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA00213 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 19:16:23 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-288-999483352-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by fg.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2001 02:15:52 -0000 X-Sender: mairen@bigpond.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 3 Sep 2001 02:15:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 73842 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2001 02:15:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Sep 2001 02:15:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailin1.bigpond.com) (139.134.6.21) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Sep 2001 02:15:45 -0000 Received: from dialup ([139.134.4.55]) by mailin1.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GIZYT900.1YX for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 04:46:21 +1000 Received: from FLPP-p-144-134-20-100.prem.tmns.net.au ([144.134.20.100]) by mail4.bigpond.com(MailRouter V2.9i 7/11298278); 02 Sep 2001 04:40:26 To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010901133718.00a95ec0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal From: "Maire" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 04:38:39 +1000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] Re: Le Guin and Rowling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: e4af17cad4162e289e81babff4af2f38 Janice:Le Guin's work is not entirely free of cardboard cutout villains. I have always felt that the depiction of Davidson in *The Word for World Is Forest* was so heavy-handed that it fatally marred the book. But in general I think Le Guin does a pretty good job of psychologically investigating why people do bad things and pointing out how "they" could easily be "us." Something that Rowling, at least in the first Harry Potter book (and from what I have gathered, the others also), does not do. Janice, your words struck a chord with me... I also felt that Davidson lessened the Word for World.... to me, his character seemed dated. Of course, that may just have been because it *was* given that i was reading the book so long after it as published. Am I correct in thinking that this book is the only one of Le Guin;s out of print? I read it for a uni text, and the uni had to reprint it on a4 paper. Anyway- I belive firmly that it is essential to examine the motivations and thought processes of those who do wrong.... as you say, "they" could easily be "us" and I truly believe that (not to mention the fact that I have been "they" once or twice). What your comment brougt to my mind was actually Octavia Butler's work, I believe that this is a theme of great importance to her, as so often she uses villains that are incredibly sympathetic, to the extent that we are unsure who to identify with... for example, the aliens in Xenogenesis, and the protagnist's slave ancestor in Kindred, the telepaths who beat their children in the Pattern-Master series. Maire Currently Reading: The Riddle-Master Trilogy by Patricia McKilip; Half the Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; Threshold by Sara Douglass; The Eyre Affair by some bloke; 18th Gardner Dozois Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; The Keepers by Pauline Kirk; Ender;s Game by OSC -----Original Message----- From: Janice E. Dawley [mailto:jdawley@bellatlantic.net] Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2001 4:36 AM To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Le Guin and Rowling At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, Maire wrote: > >If Le Guin is being compared to Pullman, and Pullman to Rowling.... does > >that mean that Le Guin and Rowling have something in common? ANyway, > >it tickled me at the time. And at 01:30 PM 8/31/01 -0700, Fred Runk wrote: >On the surface anyway--both have written a work featuring a young male (JK >Rowling seems to have no problems about this, so far, while LeGuin seems to >have regretted choosing to write about a male) who goes to wizard school >and has adventures there. LeGuin's work is one of those "young adult" >books that adults get the most out of while Rowlings wrote a book for the >under 8 reader. > >At least, this adult got nothing out of it and finished it only under protest. Le Guin has actually commented on the resemblance between her Earthsea books and the Harry Potter series in Book Magazine (full article available online at http://www.bookmagazine.com/issue12/trailblazer.shtml): "This year's phenomenon of publishing, J.K Rowling's Harry Potter books, both pleases and puzzles Ursula Le Guin. 'I'm glad kids are reading,' she says. 'But when grownups sit around saying that there's never been anything like Harry Potter, well, gee, I had a wizard school in 1968 (in *A Wizard of Earthsea*). These people simply haven't been reading this stuff. They've been sneering at fantasy until the huge success of a fantasy made them read it. 'And then they say there's nothing like this, and it breaks my heart. When I think of all the great fantasies around. And [J.K.] Rowling has certainly read me; it's obvious she's read me.' " I think what she's getting at, somewhat indirectly, is the sense that Harry Potter is a not-so-subtle collection of borrowings from earlier works that inexplicably rocketed to the top of the best-seller lists. Certainly when I read *Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone* I kept thinking to myself, "I've seen this before and done better." But I disagree that Rowling "wrote a book for the under 8 reader." These books have become such a phenomenon, the talk of the publishing world, because they appeal to adults as much as they do to children. I've spent quite a lot of time wondering why that is, and reached no firm conclusions so far. However, I have a hunch that it is partly because they are indeed "escapism" in the sense that Hollywood blockbusters are -- they take the status quo as a template, superficially twist a few elements of it to provide a taste of the exotic and end with the hero on top and the Order of Things restored. In addition, I think the streak of nastiness that runs through the books appeals to many adult readers. The Dursleys and the Slytherins (and others) are there to be hated, and unfortunately I think many people enjoy singling out an Other (or Others) and hating it without reservation. Le Guin's work is not entirely free of cardboard cutout villains. I have always felt that the depiction of Davidson in *The Word for World Is Forest* was so heavy-handed that it fatally marred the book. But in general I think Le Guin does a pretty good job of psychologically investigating why people do bad things and pointing out how "they" could easily be "us." Something that Rowling, at least in the first Harry Potter book (and from what I have gathered, the others also), does not do. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Massive Attack -- Mezzanine "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 02 12:48:55 2001 Received: from n17.groups.yahoo.com (n17.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.67]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA08617 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 01:13:48 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-282-999418398-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mq.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2001 08:13:18 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 2 Sep 2001 08:13:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 92880 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2001 08:13:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Sep 2001 08:13:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Sep 2001 08:13:14 -0000 Received: from [195.8.79.84] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15dSNS-0003uQ-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Sep 2001 09:13:11 +0100 Message-ID: <000f01c13387$020702e0$544f08c3@dan> To: References: <20010829202542.20454.qmail@softhome.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20010901133718.00a95ec0@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 09:12:02 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Le Guin and Rowling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 59b3c2b2d7ea2675db6123b21939f15e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 Yes, that is a major thing I dislike about *The Word for World Is Forest*. Rowlings cardboard cut-out baddies are more obviously caricatures. One thing which Rowling probably does better than leGuin is humour. There is a certain amount of slapstick which is probably part of the reason for her success with young males. LeGuin writes of humour delighfully - but I don't recall her being funny. In the latest Harry Potter (Goblet of fire?) there was some excellent subtle humour about adolescent girls and boys, and Harry's complete obtuseness about his treatment of Parvati at the Ball had me in stitches. In this book (the long one and 4th in the series wrt another conversation on this) Rowling is also starting to get more subtle in a psychological sense - but I don't see her ever rivalling leGuin on this, or on her grasp of the workings of complex social, political, spiritual themes across a whole society. Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Janice E. Dawley To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 7:35 PM Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Le Guin and Rowling > At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, Maire wrote: > > >If Le Guin is being compared to Pullman, and Pullman to Rowling.... does > > >that mean that Le Guin and Rowling have something in common? ANyway, > > >it tickled me at the time. > > And at 01:30 PM 8/31/01 -0700, Fred Runk wrote: > >On the surface anyway--both have written a work featuring a young male (JK > >Rowling seems to have no problems about this, so far, while LeGuin seems to > >have regretted choosing to write about a male) who goes to wizard school > >and has adventures there. LeGuin's work is one of those "young adult" > >books that adults get the most out of while Rowlings wrote a book for the > >under 8 reader. > > > >At least, this adult got nothing out of it and finished it only under protest. > > Le Guin has actually commented on the resemblance between her Earthsea > books and the Harry Potter series in Book Magazine (full article available > online at http://www.bookmagazine.com/issue12/trailblazer.shtml): > > "This year's phenomenon of publishing, J.K Rowling's Harry Potter books, > both pleases and puzzles Ursula Le Guin. > > 'I'm glad kids are reading,' she says. 'But when grownups sit around saying > that there's never been anything like Harry Potter, well, gee, I had a > wizard school in 1968 (in *A Wizard of Earthsea*). These people simply > haven't been reading this stuff. They've been sneering at fantasy until the > huge success of a fantasy made them read it. > > 'And then they say there's nothing like this, and it breaks my heart. When > I think of all the great fantasies around. And [J.K.] Rowling has certainly > read me; it's obvious she's read me.' " > > I think what she's getting at, somewhat indirectly, is the sense that Harry > Potter is a not-so-subtle collection of borrowings from earlier works that > inexplicably rocketed to the top of the best-seller lists. Certainly when I > read *Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone* I kept thinking to myself, > "I've seen this before and done better." > > But I disagree that Rowling "wrote a book for the under 8 reader." These > books have become such a phenomenon, the talk of the publishing world, > because they appeal to adults as much as they do to children. I've spent > quite a lot of time wondering why that is, and reached no firm conclusions > so far. However, I have a hunch that it is partly because they are indeed > "escapism" in the sense that Hollywood blockbusters are -- they take the > status quo as a template, superficially twist a few elements of it to > provide a taste of the exotic and end with the hero on top and the Order of > Things restored. In addition, I think the streak of nastiness that runs > through the books appeals to many adult readers. The Dursleys and the > Slytherins (and others) are there to be hated, and unfortunately I think > many people enjoy singling out an Other (or Others) and hating it without > reservation. > > Le Guin's work is not entirely free of cardboard cutout villains. I have > always felt that the depiction of Davidson in *The Word for World Is > Forest* was so heavy-handed that it fatally marred the book. But in general > I think Le Guin does a pretty good job of psychologically investigating why > people do bad things and pointing out how "they" could easily be "us." > Something that Rowling, at least in the first Harry Potter book (and from > what I have gathered, the others also), does not do. > > ----- > Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT > http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ > Listening to: Massive Attack -- Mezzanine > "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; > the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and > servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 02 12:48:55 2001 Received: from n19.groups.yahoo.com (n19.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.69]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA08806 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 01:24:15 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-283-999419024-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by mw.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2001 08:23:44 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 2 Sep 2001 08:23:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 73068 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2001 08:23:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2001 08:23:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Sep 2001 08:23:39 -0000 Received: from [195.8.79.84] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15dSXZ-00049M-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Sep 2001 09:23:37 +0100 Message-ID: <001601c13388$77a2a080$544f08c3@dan> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 09:22:54 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 17c4ecac6224cfbcb3e01070899cf7a7 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 23 Maire Yes, sorry, this is the order she published them (I don't know about wrote). In fact, in terms of Ekumen history, the first has got to be The Disposessed, where Shevek's work on simultaneity leads to the invention of the Ansible and ftl ships, which play a key part in the plot of Rocannon's world as new inventions with reference to Cetian being used in the broadcasts. When I first read the Disposessed I didn't rate it that much because I thought Urras was too allegorical, with Benbili being South America, A-Io being USA and Thuvia being USSR (which still existed then!) However, as I have got older my appreciation of the book increased amazingly. However I don't recommend it as a first read unless you're in to science, politics and philosophy migled together, As far as the history 'time line' of the others I don't know.. Rocannon's World Planet of Exile City of Illusions are definitely in sequence, but apart from that - maybe she decided to go for Simultaneity and lost interest in Sequency what does anyone else think? Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Maire To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 9:46 AM Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > Thanks Robin... do people agree that this is a good way to rea the books? In > chronological order (according to the Ekumen) ... or is that not the order > she wrote them in, and if not, is that a better way? > Maire > > Currently Reading: The Riddle-Master Trilogy by Patricia McKilip; Half the > Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; Elric by Moorcock; Threshold by Sara > Douglass; The Master-Harper of Pern by Anne McCaffrey > Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; The > Keepers by Pauline Kirk; Ender;s Game by OSC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robins - one of [mailto:robins@clara.co.uk] > Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2001 6:42 PM > To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > > > personally I read first The Wizard of Earthsea (first of the Earthsea > books) > and then Rocannon's World. This was in 71/72, so not much else was > around. > Cetainly The Left Hand of Darkness is very very fine, but judging from > some > of the other books you say you're reading I would go for Earthsea or one > of > the earlier science fiction books first to get your appetite up. > Chronologically, in so far as that applies, I guess the Ekumen books go > Rocannon's World > Planet of Exile > City of Illusions > The Left Hand of Darkness > The Disposessed > Word for World is Forest > Four Ways to Forgiveness (my current favourite, but maybe that's reading > from an older woman's perspective) > The Telling > (excluding the short stories). > Hannah Robins > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Fred Runk > To: > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 9:32 PM > Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind > > > > At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, you wrote: > > >BTW, I would appreciate help with where to start. (I have read The Word > for > > >World is Forest, as well, and I have most of her books). I didnt want > to > > >just leap in anywhere, and I have been wanting to get started for ages > > >Maire > > > > > > Should have added this to previous message. Yo can always start with > the > > LEFT HAND OF DARKNESS, one of the best SF books ever written, or with > "The > > Earthsea Trilogy," a superb fantasy series. > > > > -=Fred=- > > > > On the old plum tree, > > One blossom at a time, > > The spring thaw is born > > - Ransetsu - > > > > email: fredr@gci-net.com > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > Start here... > > Height: > 345678 ft 01234567891011in > > Weight: > lbs. kg. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 02 12:49:39 2001 Received: from n32.groups.yahoo.com (n32.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.82]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA18693 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:10:53 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-284-999450622-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hn.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2001 17:10:22 -0000 X-Sender: awkword@prodigy.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 2 Sep 2001 17:10:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 55463 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2001 17:10:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2001 17:10:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n3.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Sep 2001 17:10:21 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: awkword@prodigy.net Received: from [10.1.10.113] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2001 17:10:21 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9mtp5t+54kk@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 209.254.185.237 From: "Eric Silvernale" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 17:10:21 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] le guin quotes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a3099066d1180b230430fe28196f1463 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 50 One of my favorite quotes is from Le Guin: "I am a woman without answers. I said I'd respond, and I have no responses." -Woman Without Answers (Dancing at the Edge of the World) In this very short myth piece, she explores her Coyote theme and the quote doesn't have the resonance it has when read within the story. I recommend re-reading the piece if you have a copy. A wonderful statement on Le Guin's world view. Does anyone else have favorite quotes? Eric Silvernale awkword@prodigy.net www.redhector.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 02 12:49:39 2001 Received: from n15.groups.yahoo.com (n15.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.65]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21821 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:39:21 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-285-999459530-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2001 19:38:51 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 2 Sep 2001 19:38:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 48005 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2001 19:38:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2001 19:38:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Sep 2001 19:38:49 -0000 Received: from [195.8.79.244] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15dd4x-000I66-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 02 Sep 2001 20:38:48 +0100 Message-ID: <001601c133e6$cc2424e0$f44f08c3@dan> To: References: <9mtp5t+54kk@eGroups.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:38:09 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] le guin quotes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 72497718bfcda3f87994aca2cd31cda5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 'praise then creation unfinished' and 'shifgrethor can be played on the level of ethics' (The Left Hand of Darkness) 'Can one dismiss either being, or becoming, as an illusion? Becoming without being is meaningless. Being without becoming is a big bore. ' (The Disposessed) 'Love doesn't just sit there, like a stone. it has to be made, like bread; re-made all the time, made new.' (The Lathe of Heaven) are some Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Silvernale To: Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 6:10 PM Subject: [the-ekumen] le guin quotes > One of my favorite quotes is from Le Guin: > > "I am a woman without answers. I said I'd respond, and I have no > responses." > -Woman Without Answers (Dancing at the Edge of the World) > In this very short myth piece, she explores her Coyote theme and the > quote doesn't have the resonance it has when read within the story. > I recommend re-reading the piece if you have a copy. A wonderful > statement on Le Guin's world view. > > Does anyone else have favorite quotes? > > Eric Silvernale > awkword@prodigy.net > www.redhector.com > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 02 12:49:39 2001 Received: from n15.groups.yahoo.com (n15.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.65]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21895 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:42:20 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-286-999459710-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2001 19:41:50 -0000 X-Sender: iwr77@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 2 Sep 2001 19:41:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 7784 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2001 19:41:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2001 19:41:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.144) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Sep 2001 19:41:49 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:41:49 -0700 Received: from 65.9.172.44 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 02 Sep 2001 19:41:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.9.172.44] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Sep 2001 19:41:49.0844 (UTC) FILETIME=[4EF84540:01C133E7] From: "Ian W. Riddell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 15:41:49 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 4161acfc553ffbfd1536b229b90c6435 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 59 >From: Fred Runk >Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] The Other Wind >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 11:00:59 -0700 > >At 06:34 PM 8/31/01 -0400, you wrote: > >I, however, loved it (Harry Potter). Although I really wouldn't compare >it > >to Le Guin at all. Completely different tone and different issues being > >dealt with. > > >I have met other adults who like it also. Personally, I can't see it, but >different strokes as they say... > > > > >Besides, any author who can get a 10-year-old boy to read a 700-page >novel > >is cool in my book > >Perhaps that's the problem. My edition had nothing like 700 pages. That >was one of its better aspects--it was short. > >Perhaps mine was the abridged version with all the good parts cut out. > > Actually, the 4th book in the series has 700 pages. The other 3 are much shorter. widdy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 02 13:46:15 2001 Received: from n1.groups.yahoo.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA22312 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:59:47 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-287-999460774-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Sep 2001 19:59:34 -0000 X-Sender: nobody@bbc.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 2 Sep 2001 19:59:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 42533 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2001 19:59:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2001 19:59:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO www6.thdo.bbc.co.uk) (212.58.224.36) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Sep 2001 19:59:30 -0000 Received: (from nobody@localhost) by www6.thdo.bbc.co.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) id UAA07510; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:59:30 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <200109021959.UAA07510@www6.thdo.bbc.co.uk> X-Authentication-Warning: www6.thdo.bbc.co.uk: nobody set sender to nobody@bbc.co.uk using -f X-Disclaimer: This message was sent to you using the "Email a friend" facility on the BBC's WWW site, http://www.bbc.co.uk/. If you wish to complain about this email, please forward it in its entirety to webmaster@bbc.co.uk. The BBC is not responsible for the content of this email, and anything said in this email does not necessarily reflect the BBC's views. X-Maybe-Originating-IP-Address: 195.8.79.244; X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 95; DigExt) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: robins@clara.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:59:30 +0100 (BST) Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] [BBC] doris lessing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 03077e93a56066cd5d7c8613db114db5 http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/discover/interviews/discover_interview2.shtml a quite different author to compare UKL to - I once heard an interview where Doris Lessing had the good taste to praise UKL - I think in some ways she is good in the same sort of way although I think she should leave science fication alone - leave it to UKL - and of course she is a much more wodely recognised great literary figure - 'golden notebook' remains my favourite - anyway I thought some of you might be interested in this interview -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was sent to you using the "Email a friend" facility on the BBC's WWW site, http://www.bbc.co.uk/. If you wish to complain about this email, please forward it in its entirety to webmaster@bbc.co.uk. The BBC is not responsible for the content of this email, and anything said in this email does not necessarily reflect the BBC's views. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Sep 03 09:20:27 2001 Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA02799 for ; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 21:12:35 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-289-999490325-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2001 04:12:05 -0000 X-Sender: mairen@bigpond.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 3 Sep 2001 04:12:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 55579 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2001 04:11:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Sep 2001 04:11:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mailin5.bigpond.com) (139.134.6.78) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Sep 2001 04:11:54 -0000 Received: from dialup ([139.134.4.55]) by mailin5.bigpond.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id GJ2JSO00.C7A for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:14:48 +1000 Received: from 144.138.135.70 ([144.138.135.70]) by mail4.bigpond.com(MailRouter V2.9i 7/11884448); 03 Sep 2001 14:09:00 To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200109021959.UAA07510@www6.thdo.bbc.co.uk> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 From: "Maire" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 14:06:39 +1000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] [BBC] doris lessing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 1796abcf4b63af9a101560e1e137815d Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2 I think Doris Lessing's sf is very underrated. I read Mara and Dann when it came out and was very impressed. I havent read the Shikasta series yet, though I have them all, scrounged from various used book-stores. Has anyone read them? I have heard varying reports. Maire Currently Reading: The Riddle-Master Trilogy by Patricia McKilip; Half the Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; Threshold by Sara Douglass; The Eyre Affair by some bloke; 18th Gardner Dozois Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; The Keepers by Pauline Kirk; Ender;s Game by OSC -----Original Message----- From: robins@clara.co.uk [mailto:robins@clara.co.uk] Sent: Monday, 3 September 2001 5:59 AM To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] [BBC] doris lessing http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/discover/interviews/discover_interview2.shtml a quite different author to compare UKL to - I once heard an interview where Doris Lessing had the good taste to praise UKL - I think in some ways she is good in the same sort of way although I think she should leave science fication alone - leave it to UKL - and of course she is a much more wodely recognised great literary figure - 'golden notebook' remains my favourite - anyway I thought some of you might be interested in this interview -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message was sent to you using the "Email a friend" facility on the BBC's WWW site, http://www.bbc.co.uk/. If you wish to complain about this email, please forward it in its entirety to webmaster@bbc.co.uk. The BBC is not responsible for the content of this email, and anything said in this email does not necessarily reflect the BBC's views. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Start here... Height: 345678 ft 01234567891011in Weight: lbs. kg. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Sep 03 09:20:28 2001 Received: from n27.groups.yahoo.com (n27.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA10042 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 04:19:29 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-290-999515938-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by fh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2001 11:18:58 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 3 Sep 2001 11:18:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 77821 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2001 11:18:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Sep 2001 11:18:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Sep 2001 11:18:57 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([213.48.143.247]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:56:10 +0100 Message-ID: <3B935307.D9D9CB11@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 10:53:11 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] [BBC] doris lessing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a7d4f4216e276a69fbb95902546931a8 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 26 Maire wrote: > >>off topic and prolix<< ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Sep 03 09:20:49 2001 Received: from n35.groups.yahoo.com (n35.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.85]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA14476 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:50:55 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-291-999528625-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2001 14:50:25 -0000 X-Sender: awkword@prodigy.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 3 Sep 2001 14:50:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 95596 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2001 14:49:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Sep 2001 14:49:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.2.220) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Sep 2001 14:49:00 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: awkword@prodigy.net Received: from [10.1.10.103] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2001 14:49:00 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9n058p+tm1l@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 209.254.185.106 From: "Eric Silvernale" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 14:48:57 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Dorris and Ursula Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 67ec10e1cbbf40103e02a64cbd825202 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 38 I tried to read Lessing's science fiction series and I started with Marriages Between Zones Three Four and Five. I did so because Philip Glass wrote a piece for that book and if Philip Glass liked it, I thought I would. I didn't. I found it very difficult to read... perhaps too realisitic... like I was reading an actual report with little narrative support. And it was very political. I have always had trouble with highly political fiction (see Babylon 5 which tends to focus on political issues rather than adventure of interpersonal issues.) Perhaps I didn't give Dorris a fair chance and maybe I should have started at the beginning of the series. I will try her again in the future for I loved the Golden Notebook. One of the joys of reading Ursula is how personal the political is. The politics in her worlds never overshadow her character... they enhance the character. So much of current fantasy fiction dwells on who is king/queen and what duke is plotting what scandal. Many of you will hate me for this but that was my biggest problem with The Mists of Avalon. I've never enjoyed that in my reading and prefer the real struggles of kings/queens in historical reading to that of fantasy fiction. I am grateful that Le Guin stears clear of that. Excellent example: the political enviroment on Terra gives strength and structure to Dalzul in Dancing to Ganam (Fisherman of the Inland Sea)...not the otherway around. At least, that's how I see it. I guess I'm just a fool for a good fairy tale! Eric Silvernale www.redhector.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Sep 04 10:21:30 2001 Received: from n28.groups.yahoo.com (n28.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.78]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA26187 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:56:27 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-296-999622557-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by f19.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Sep 2001 16:55:57 -0000 X-Sender: anariska@smartt.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 4 Sep 2001 16:55:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 3525 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2001 16:35:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Sep 2001 16:35:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smartt.com) (209.52.5.253) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Sep 2001 16:35:19 -0000 Received: from anariska.smartt.com (burn-mx09005.smartt.com [209.52.2.174]) by smartt.com (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f84Gjcm22568 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 09:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010903093342.00801100@smartt.com> X-Sender: anariska@smartt.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <999594402.902.67921.l10@yahoogroups.com> From: Susan Armstrong MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 09:33:42 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 114 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 917e6c8ead65c0d2cd84affeb82136fa Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 149 >... I remember from some book - not sure if it >is one of Ursula's or not, a passage where someone says 'this transcends the >personal' and the other person says (fiercely I believe) 'in that case it is >immoral!' Anyone recognise that? That's in LHOD. Ashe, Estraven's ex-kemmering, reacts after Genly pompously proclaims that "the mission I am on overrides all personal debts and loyalties." - Susan ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Sep 03 11:20:28 2001 Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (n10.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.60]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA18266 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:56:23 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-292-999539752-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2001 17:55:52 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 3 Sep 2001 17:55:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 19027 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2001 17:53:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Sep 2001 17:53:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Sep 2001 17:53:55 -0000 Received: from [208.32.92.4] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 9152636 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Sep 2001 10:57:29 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010903105353.00801800@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9mtp5t+54kk@eGroups.com> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 10:53:53 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] le guin quotes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: de59ff4e9b17219bbdeaa8b3f30cbee1 One of my favorite quotes from Le Guin: "A man wants his virility regarded, a woman wants her femininity appreciated, however indirect and subtle the indications of regard and appreciation. On Winter they will not exist. One is respected and judged only as a human being. It is an appalling experience." Chapter 7 Left Hand of Darkness -=Fred=- A solitary crow on a bare branch-- Autumn evening - Basho - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Sep 03 12:08:56 2001 Received: from n9.groups.yahoo.com (n9.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.59]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA20058 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:09:01 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-293-999544111-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2001 19:08:31 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 3 Sep 2001 19:08:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 79904 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2001 19:06:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Sep 2001 19:06:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Sep 2001 19:06:26 -0000 Received: from [212.126.134.144] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15dz37-000CYV-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Sep 2001 20:06:22 +0100 Message-ID: <003201c134ab$738da840$90867ed4@dan> To: References: <9n058p+tm1l@eGroups.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:05:51 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Doris, Ursula, Katherine and politics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 419a6d30e0c740b5ae1310d9b41fa47d I think the key is that Ursula makes the political and interpersonal irreversibly linked. One of the appealing things in The Dispossessed (a higly political novel, surely!) is that, to Odonians it is not possible to be impersonally political. And I remember from some book - not sure if it is one of Ursula's or not, a passage where someone says 'this transcends the personal' and the other person says (fiercely I believe) 'in that case it is immoral!' Anyone recognise that? Doris, of course, started as a political novelist and only got into scifi later on, as I understand, grounds of principle as the right place to be. An exception is 'the summer before the dark'. Whereas I think Ursula writes what she writes because she sees it as the best medium for saying what she has to say. I also had no time for Mists of Avalon, I'm afraid. But what about the novels of Katherine Kerr? She also develops a delightful coherent complex society and history and spritual/mystical reality, although I don't rate her as high as Ursula. What is it that makes Ursula so magic and so the source of inspiration to me? I don't know, and hope that by joining this group I can ask your help in sorting out an answer. But of course, it may be 'an unanswerable question'! Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Silvernale To: Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 3:48 PM Subject: [the-ekumen] Dorris and Ursula > I tried to read Lessing's science fiction series and I started with > Marriages Between Zones Three Four and Five. I did so because Philip > Glass wrote a piece for that book and if Philip Glass liked it, I > thought I would. I didn't. I found it very difficult to read... > perhaps too realisitic... like I was reading an actual report with > little narrative support. And it was very political. I have always > had trouble with highly political fiction (see Babylon 5 which tends > to focus on political issues rather than adventure of interpersonal > issues.) Perhaps I didn't give Dorris a fair chance and maybe I > should have started at the beginning of the series. I will try her > again in the future for I loved the Golden Notebook. > One of the joys of reading Ursula is how personal the political is. > The politics in her worlds never overshadow her character... they > enhance the character. So much of current fantasy fiction dwells on > who is king/queen and what duke is plotting what scandal. Many of > you will hate me for this but that was my biggest problem with The > Mists of Avalon. I've never enjoyed that in my reading and prefer > the real struggles of kings/queens in historical reading to that of > fantasy fiction. I am grateful that Le Guin stears clear of that. > Excellent example: the political enviroment on Terra gives strength > and structure to Dalzul in Dancing to Ganam (Fisherman of the Inland > Sea)...not the otherway around. > At least, that's how I see it. I guess I'm just a fool for a good > fairy tale! > Eric Silvernale > www.redhector.com > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Sep 03 12:16:12 2001 Received: from n4.groups.yahoo.com (n4.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.54]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA20251 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 12:15:08 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-294-999544477-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2001 19:14:38 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 3 Sep 2001 19:14:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 54381 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2001 19:13:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Sep 2001 19:13:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Sep 2001 19:13:44 -0000 Received: from [212.126.134.144] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15dzAD-000CnO-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 03 Sep 2001 20:13:42 +0100 Message-ID: <004e01c134ac$79c8b320$90867ed4@dan> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 20:13:10 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Le Guin and Rowling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: fa69561853fde51b0199c4e39a67f1f1 So people actually study Le Guin as an academic subject in the US. Amazing! She's always been a hobby to me. Does anyone in the UK study her? Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Maire To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 7:38 PM Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] Re: Le Guin and Rowling > Janice:Le Guin's work is not entirely free of cardboard cutout villains. I > have > always felt that the depiction of Davidson in *The Word for World Is > Forest* was so heavy-handed that it fatally marred the book. But in general > I think Le Guin does a pretty good job of psychologically investigating why > people do bad things and pointing out how "they" could easily be "us." > Something that Rowling, at least in the first Harry Potter book (and from > what I have gathered, the others also), does not do. > > > > Janice, your words struck a chord with me... I also felt that Davidson > lessened the Word for World.... to me, his character seemed dated. Of > course, that may just have been because it *was* given that i was reading > the book so long after it as published. Am I correct in thinking that this > book is the only one of Le Guin;s out of print? I read it for a uni text, > and the uni had to reprint it on a4 paper. > Anyway- I belive firmly that it is essential to examine the motivations and > thought processes of those who do wrong.... as you say, "they" could easily > be "us" and I truly believe that (not to mention the fact that I have been > "they" once or twice). What your comment brougt to my mind was actually > Octavia Butler's work, I believe that this is a theme of great importance to > her, as so often she uses villains that are incredibly sympathetic, to the > extent that we are unsure who to identify with... for example, the aliens in > Xenogenesis, and the protagnist's slave ancestor in Kindred, the telepaths > who beat their children in the Pattern-Master series. > Maire > Currently Reading: The Riddle-Master Trilogy by Patricia McKilip; Half the > Day is Night by Maureen F. McHugh; Threshold by Sara Douglass; The Eyre > Affair by some bloke; 18th Gardner Dozois > Just Read: Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson; City of Sorcery by MZB; The > Keepers by Pauline Kirk; Ender;s Game by OSC > > -----Original Message----- > From: Janice E. Dawley [mailto:jdawley@bellatlantic.net] > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2001 4:36 AM > To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Le Guin and Rowling > > > At 06:07 AM 9/1/01 +1000, Maire wrote: > > >If Le Guin is being compared to Pullman, and Pullman to Rowling.... > does > > >that mean that Le Guin and Rowling have something in common? ANyway, > > >it tickled me at the time. > > And at 01:30 PM 8/31/01 -0700, Fred Runk wrote: > >On the surface anyway--both have written a work featuring a young male > (JK > >Rowling seems to have no problems about this, so far, while LeGuin seems > to > >have regretted choosing to write about a male) who goes to wizard school > >and has adventures there. LeGuin's work is one of those "young adult" > >books that adults get the most out of while Rowlings wrote a book for the > >under 8 reader. > > > >At least, this adult got nothing out of it and finished it only under > protest. > > Le Guin has actually commented on the resemblance between her Earthsea > books and the Harry Potter series in Book Magazine (full article available > online at http://www.bookmagazine.com/issue12/trailblazer.shtml): > > "This year's phenomenon of publishing, J.K Rowling's Harry Potter books, > both pleases and puzzles Ursula Le Guin. > > 'I'm glad kids are reading,' she says. 'But when grownups sit around > saying > that there's never been anything like Harry Potter, well, gee, I had a > wizard school in 1968 (in *A Wizard of Earthsea*). These people simply > haven't been reading this stuff. They've been sneering at fantasy until > the > huge success of a fantasy made them read it. > > 'And then they say there's nothing like this, and it breaks my heart. When > I think of all the great fantasies around. And [J.K.] Rowling has > certainly > read me; it's obvious she's read me.' " > > I think what she's getting at, somewhat indirectly, is the sense that > Harry > Potter is a not-so-subtle collection of borrowings from earlier works that > inexplicably rocketed to the top of the best-seller lists. Certainly when > I > read *Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone* I kept thinking to myself, > "I've seen this before and done better." > > But I disagree that Rowling "wrote a book for the under 8 reader." These > books have become such a phenomenon, the talk of the publishing world, > because they appeal to adults as much as they do to children. I've spent > quite a lot of time wondering why that is, and reached no firm conclusions > so far. However, I have a hunch that it is partly because they are indeed > "escapism" in the sense that Hollywood blockbusters are -- they take the > status quo as a template, superficially twist a few elements of it to > provide a taste of the exotic and end with the hero on top and the Order > of > Things restored. In addition, I think the streak of nastiness that runs > through the books appeals to many adult readers. The Dursleys and the > Slytherins (and others) are there to be hated, and unfortunately I think > many people enjoy singling out an Other (or Others) and hating it without > reservation. > > Le Guin's work is not entirely free of cardboard cutout villains. I have > always felt that the depiction of Davidson in *The Word for World Is > Forest* was so heavy-handed that it fatally marred the book. But in > general > I think Le Guin does a pretty good job of psychologically investigating > why > people do bad things and pointing out how "they" could easily be "us." > Something that Rowling, at least in the first Harry Potter book (and from > what I have gathered, the others also), does not do. > > ----- > Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT > http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ > Listening to: Massive Attack -- Mezzanine > "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; > the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and > servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Sep 03 20:09:08 2001 Received: from n27.groups.yahoo.com (n27.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA00516 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 15:39:12 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-295-999556721-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 Sep 2001 22:38:41 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 3 Sep 2001 22:38:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 51595 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2001 22:38:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Sep 2001 22:38:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta3 with SMTP; 3 Sep 2001 22:38:40 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-49.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.49]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f83McdW28240 for ; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 16:38:39 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3B9415AA.E9CA97D9@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <3.0.5.32.20010903105353.00801800@208.2.166.100> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 16:43:38 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: le guin quotes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 0ea4dd5fbc3d96cc3fff6e8f33679b93 Fred Runk wrote: > One of my favorite quotes from Le Guin: > > "A man wants his virility regarded, a woman wants her femininity > appreciated, however indirect and subtle the indications of regard and > > appreciation. On Winter they will not exist. One is respected and > judged > only as a human being. It is an appalling experience." > Chapter 7 > Left Hand of Darkness > LOL! I remember that. I love it, too. Grey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Sep 04 10:21:30 2001 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com (n11.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.61]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA26616 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:02:45 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-297-999622933-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Sep 2001 17:02:15 -0000 X-Sender: Judyldubois@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 4 Sep 2001 17:02:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 79022 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2001 16:41:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Sep 2001 16:41:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d01.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.33) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Sep 2001 16:41:37 -0000 Received: from Judyldubois@aol.com by imo-d01.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id r.130.125848f (17529) for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:41:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <130.125848f.28c65e37@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 115 From: judyldubois@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:41:27 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 114 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: b9b6fd6b1dd878664d748ff5952d6ae3 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 155 I've been busy and every time I read a new digest I think, I've got to answer that, but then a day or so goes by and there's another digest with even more thought provoking ideas, so I guess what I really want to say is thank you, all of you, for turning on so many lights. Thanks to whoever it was, (Rodney) who pointed out that the title is "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas". This isn't nitpicking because the whole idea of the story is that Ursula asks us to imagine something that does not exist anywhere. It's a hypothesis and she even leaves the details up to the reader to fill in. Which explains why the story is written in the present tense and not the narrative past. Part of the hypothesis, and I think some of you missed this, is that there is nothing that can be done for the child. Ursula goes to some length to make this clear. Everyone in Omelas has to live with the idea that it's too late, the child is permanently damaged, and it might be even more miserable if it was "freed". Those who say that it's wrong to walk away, have not accepted the condition of her hypothesis. Here, once again, she is showing her Taoist beliefs. As Westerners our reaction is to want to act, to do something for the child. Yet, there are in life situations in which nothing can be done, however much we regret it, and the only response left is to refuse to be part of the situation, to continue to benefit from the child's abuse. What if all the citizens of Omelas walked away? What if all the _______________ (fill in the blank with Israelis, Macedonians, Irish Protestants etc, etc) just walked away and said our presence causes others to suffer, therefore we no longer wish to be part of this situation? My favorite quote? "The cats elsewhere may be green, the cats here don't care." That's from memory, it may not be word perfect. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Sep 04 13:42:04 2001 Received: from n18.groups.yahoo.com (n18.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.68]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08319 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:58:46 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-298-999633495-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by mr.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Sep 2001 19:58:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 2167 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2001 19:31:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Sep 2001 19:31:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n22.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.2.82) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Sep 2001 19:31:58 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: notify@yahoogroups.com Received: from [10.1.2.51] by cj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Sep 2001 19:31:58 -0000 Message-ID: <999631913.545.63791.ab@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: poll From: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 4 Sep 2001 19:31:53 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] New poll for the-ekumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: b27460676159d4d075fbad91f19b45b4 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the the-ekumen group: Which of Le Guin's novels have you revisited the most number of times? o Always Coming Home o The Beginning Place o City of Illusions o The Dispossessed o The Eye of the Heron o The Farthest Shore o The Lathe of Heaven o The Left Hand of Darkness o Malafrena o The Other Wind o Planet of Exile o Rocannon's World o Tehanu o The Telling o The Tombs of Atuan o Very Far Away from Anywhere Else o A Wizard of Earthsea o The Word for World Is Forest To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-ekumen/polls Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Sep 04 13:42:52 2001 Received: from n18.groups.yahoo.com (n18.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.68]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA10798 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 13:35:35 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-299-999635704-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by mr.egroups.com with NNFMP; 04 Sep 2001 20:35:05 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 4 Sep 2001 20:35:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 42366 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2001 20:09:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Sep 2001 20:09:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 Sep 2001 20:09:26 -0000 Received: from [208.32.92.217] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 9213456 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 04 Sep 2001 13:13:02 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010904130921.007d1210@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <3B9415AA.E9CA97D9@pcisys.net> References: <3.0.5.32.20010903105353.00801800@208.2.166.100> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 13:09:21 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: le guin quotes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 38d06d4d7ce751207df90b86cb7fed53 At 04:43 PM 9/3/01 -0700, you wrote: >LOL! I remember that. I love it, too. > >Grey I found it a real shocker when I read it. I keep going back to it, even after all these years. -=Fred=- A solitary crow on a bare branch-- Autumn evening - Basho - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Sep 07 19:03:33 2001 Received: from n20.groups.yahoo.com (n20.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.70]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA27465 for ; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:18:07 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-300-999652657-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by c9.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Sep 2001 01:17:37 -0000 X-Sender: awkword@prodigy.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2); 5 Sep 2001 01:17:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 98782 invoked from network); 5 Sep 2001 01:17:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Sep 2001 01:17:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n13.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.91) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Sep 2001 01:17:34 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: awkword@prodigy.net Received: from [10.1.10.133] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 05 Sep 2001 01:17:34 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9n3ufd+6vb7@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <003201c134ab$738da840$90867ed4@dan> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 63.253.199.191 From: "Eric Silvernale" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 01:17:33 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Doris, Ursula, Katherine and politics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 87642d19c5e7e05d28cf6ec287bd7c2b Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 81 --- In the-ekumen@y..., "Robins - one of" wrote: And I remember from some book - not sure if it > is one of Ursula's or not, a passage where someone says 'this transcends the > personal' and the other person says (fiercely I believe) 'in that case it is > immoral!' > But what about the > novels of Katherine Kerr? She also develops a delightful coherent complex > society and history and spritual/mystical reality, although I don't rate her > as high as Ursula Robins - one of, Thank you for your response! It helped clear up some of my foggy thoughts. I haven't read Kerr. I will look into her. Eric ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Sep 07 19:08:58 2001 Received: from n1.groups.yahoo.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA15339 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:40:38 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-301-999895207-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Sep 2001 20:40:07 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_1); 7 Sep 2001 20:40:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 72506 invoked from network); 7 Sep 2001 20:39:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Sep 2001 20:39:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Sep 2001 20:39:18 -0000 Received: from [212.126.133.174] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15fSPE-000BYn-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 07 Sep 2001 21:39:17 +0100 Message-ID: <001901c137dd$0e5f20e0$ae857ed4@dan> To: References: <999631913.545.63791.ab@yahoogroups.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:38:30 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] New poll for the-ekumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: d90534b3f45868b2dc5bc9c63185b3c6 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1024 what is The Beginning Place? Something else I haven't read? ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:31 PM Subject: [the-ekumen] New poll for the-ekumen > > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the > the-ekumen group: > > Which of Le Guin's novels have you > revisited the most number of times? > > o Always Coming Home > o The Beginning Place > o City of Illusions > o The Dispossessed > o The Eye of the Heron > o The Farthest Shore > o The Lathe of Heaven > o The Left Hand of Darkness > o Malafrena > o The Other Wind > o Planet of Exile > o Rocannon's World > o Tehanu > o The Telling > o The Tombs of Atuan > o Very Far Away from Anywhere Else > o A Wizard of Earthsea > o The Word for World Is Forest > > > To vote, please visit the following web page: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-ekumen/polls > > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups > web site listed above. > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Sep 07 19:09:09 2001 Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com (n11.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.61]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA26448 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 16:34:02 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-302-999905612-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by c3.egroups.com with NNFMP; 07 Sep 2001 23:33:32 -0000 X-Sender: aquila1@ihug.co.nz X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_1); 7 Sep 2001 23:33:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 50127 invoked from network); 7 Sep 2001 23:33:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Sep 2001 23:33:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.ihug.co.nz) (203.109.252.7) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Sep 2001 23:33:29 -0000 Received: from hppav (p49-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.205.49]) by smtp1.ihug.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with SMTP id LAA16961 for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:33:26 +1200 X-Authentication-Warning: smtp1.ihug.co.nz: Host p49-tnt8.akl.ihug.co.nz [203.173.205.49] claimed to be hppav To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <001901c137dd$0e5f20e0$ae857ed4@dan> Importance: Normal From: "Aquila" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:25:13 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] New poll for the-ekumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 005d93b28cf914e0622af0a6201609af Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1053 The beginning place was also published as Threshold. Aquila "Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." -Rudyard Kipling > -----Original Message----- > From: Robins - one of [mailto:robins@clara.co.uk] > Sent: Saturday, 8 September 2001 8:39 a.m. > To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] New poll for the-ekumen > > > what is The Beginning Place? Something else I haven't read? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:31 PM > Subject: [the-ekumen] New poll for the-ekumen > > > > > > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the > > the-ekumen group: > > > > Which of Le Guin's novels have you > > revisited the most number of times? > > > > o Always Coming Home > > o The Beginning Place > > o City of Illusions > > o The Dispossessed > > o The Eye of the Heron > > o The Farthest Shore > > o The Lathe of Heaven > > o The Left Hand of Darkness > > o Malafrena > > o The Other Wind > > o Planet of Exile > > o Rocannon's World > > o Tehanu > > o The Telling > > o The Tombs of Atuan > > o Very Far Away from Anywhere Else > > o A Wizard of Earthsea > > o The Word for World Is Forest > > > > > > To vote, please visit the following web page: > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-ekumen/polls > > > > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are > > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups > > web site listed above. > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 08 16:33:22 2001 Received: from n27.groups.yahoo.com (n27.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA21177 for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 08:51:37 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-303-999964266-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by fh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Sep 2001 15:51:06 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_1); 8 Sep 2001 15:51:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 22115 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2001 15:51:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Sep 2001 15:51:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 8 Sep 2001 15:51:03 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.201] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15fkNp-000Jpm-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 08 Sep 2001 16:51:02 +0100 Message-ID: <001a01c1387d$f45baa00$c9887ed4@dan> To: References: <3.0.6.32.20010903093342.00801100@smartt.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 16:49:52 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 114 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6412529b6987d8b8b389564a7031b258 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 68 Susan Thanks! Right next to one of my favourite quotes, and part and parcel of it - but I didn't see it i.e. playing shifgrethor on the level of ethics Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Armstrong To: Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 5:33 PM Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 114 > > >... I remember from some book - not sure if it > >is one of Ursula's or not, a passage where someone says 'this transcends the > >personal' and the other person says (fiercely I believe) 'in that case it is > >immoral!' Anyone recognise that? > > That's in LHOD. Ashe, Estraven's ex-kemmering, reacts after Genly pompously > proclaims that "the mission I am on overrides all personal debts and > loyalties." > > - Susan > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 08 16:33:22 2001 Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA21281 for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 08:55:29 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-304-999964498-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Sep 2001 15:54:58 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_1); 8 Sep 2001 15:54:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 14322 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2001 15:54:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Sep 2001 15:54:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Sep 2001 15:54:56 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.201] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15fkRa-000Jy4-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 08 Sep 2001 16:54:55 +0100 Message-ID: <002b01c1387e$7f337cc0$c9887ed4@dan> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 16:54:08 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] New poll for the-ekumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 720fbdb7e67bb16d1f0e6a3e22e4c3da Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 70 Thanks. Yes, I've got that one - strange book, one of the ones that grows on you with rereading. Very much a 'psychomyth' which I still haven't got to the bottom of, all wrapped up in his relationship with his mother Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Aquila To: Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 12:25 AM Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] New poll for the-ekumen > The beginning place was also published as Threshold. > > Aquila > > "Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." > -Rudyard Kipling > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Robins - one of [mailto:robins@clara.co.uk] > > Sent: Saturday, 8 September 2001 8:39 a.m. > > To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] New poll for the-ekumen > > > > > > what is The Beginning Place? Something else I haven't read? > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:31 PM > > Subject: [the-ekumen] New poll for the-ekumen > > > > > > > > > > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the > > > the-ekumen group: > > > > > > Which of Le Guin's novels have you > > > revisited the most number of times? > > > > > > o Always Coming Home > > > o The Beginning Place > > > o City of Illusions > > > o The Dispossessed > > > o The Eye of the Heron > > > o The Farthest Shore > > > o The Lathe of Heaven > > > o The Left Hand of Darkness > > > o Malafrena > > > o The Other Wind > > > o Planet of Exile > > > o Rocannon's World > > > o Tehanu > > > o The Telling > > > o The Tombs of Atuan > > > o Very Far Away from Anywhere Else > > > o A Wizard of Earthsea > > > o The Word for World Is Forest > > > > > > > > > To vote, please visit the following web page: > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-ekumen/polls > > > > > > Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are > > > not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups > > > web site listed above. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 08 16:33:22 2001 Received: from n7.groups.yahoo.com (n7.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.57]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA21845 for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 09:14:34 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-305-999965643-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Sep 2001 16:14:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 79656 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2001 16:12:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Sep 2001 16:12:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n27.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.2.135) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Sep 2001 16:12:21 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: notify@yahoogroups.com Received: from [10.1.10.66] by fh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Sep 2001 16:12:17 -0000 Message-ID: <999965536.997.46437.j7@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Application: poll From: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 8 Sep 2001 16:12:16 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] New poll for the-ekumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: c133f871db9b68b35864f978b271f0fb Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 72 Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the the-ekumen group: Which are your favourite stories in The Winds Twelve Quarters? o Semley's Necklace o April in Paris o The Masters o Darkness Box o The Word of Unbinding o The Rule of Names o Winter's King o The Good Trip o Nine lives o Things o A trip to the Head o Vaster than Empires and more slow o The Stars below o The field of visions o Direction of the Road o TheOnes who walk away from Omelas o The day before the revolution To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-ekumen/polls Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 08 16:33:22 2001 Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA22071 for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 09:24:08 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-306-999966217-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 08 Sep 2001 16:23:37 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_1); 8 Sep 2001 16:23:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 23011 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2001 16:23:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 8 Sep 2001 16:23:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 8 Sep 2001 16:23:35 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.201] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15fktK-000L1m-00 for the-ekumen@egroups.com; Sat, 08 Sep 2001 17:23:34 +0100 Message-ID: <003801c13882$801a5d80$c9887ed4@dan> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 17:22:47 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Ursula le Guin and autism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ba58e77a466db11e2b2eae71b1974dc1 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 74 Ammari Joining this group has inspired me to go back and reread The Winds Twelve Quarters. I am not a short story person so my memory of them was patchy. It has been a great experience! One of the things I had been thinking was that a theme in many of the books was the difficulty of the indidividual in making contact with others - and the poignancy of succeeding against the odds. Think of Shevek's story about brotherhood beginning in shared pain. I thought - well this is like Autism, and lo and behold what did I find but a story which was really all about autism - Vaster than empires and more slow! Anyway I've set up a poll with a closing date of Chirstmas day to see if any of the rest of you are interested in these stories Hannah [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 09 09:22:40 2001 Received: from n13.groups.yahoo.com (n13.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.63]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA21065 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2001 05:34:45 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-307-1000038855-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Sep 2001 12:34:15 -0000 X-Sender: Judyldubois@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_1); 9 Sep 2001 12:34:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 88319 invoked from network); 9 Sep 2001 12:34:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Sep 2001 12:34:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-d06.mx.aol.com) (205.188.157.38) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Sep 2001 12:34:12 -0000 Received: from Judyldubois@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id r.14.1a47f1c8 (4256) for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:34:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <14.1a47f1c8.28ccbbbb@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 115 From: judyldubois@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:34:03 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 117 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 797230cc662ff68804b5ca44c2860e1e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 60 The new poll asks which are our favorite stories in The Wind's Twelve Quarters. Does that mean we can vote for more than one? Because otherwise, the choice is just too difficult. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 09 09:22:40 2001 Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA23122 for ; Sun, 9 Sep 2001 07:20:41 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-308-1000045210-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 09 Sep 2001 14:20:10 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_1); 9 Sep 2001 14:20:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 45514 invoked from network); 9 Sep 2001 14:20:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Sep 2001 14:20:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 9 Sep 2001 14:20:09 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.186] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15g5RP-0006DY-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 09 Sep 2001 15:20:08 +0100 Message-ID: <001701c1393a$6a901b40$ba887ed4@dan> To: References: <14.1a47f1c8.28ccbbbb@aol.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 15:19:19 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 117 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f700f2a2f11f6f1e133b2ee354b523bb Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 64 Yes- I've set it up to vote for as many as you like (tho' 17 would be a bit silly!) Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 117 > The new poll asks which are our favorite stories in The Wind's Twelve > Quarters. Does that mean we can vote for more than one? Because otherwise, > the choice is just too difficult. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Sep 11 17:35:54 2001 Received: from n13.groups.yahoo.com (n13.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.63]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA17765 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 04:00:33 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-309-1000206003-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 11 Sep 2001 11:00:03 -0000 X-Sender: aliaskeri@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_1); 11 Sep 2001 11:00:02 -0000 Received: (qmail 82947 invoked from network); 11 Sep 2001 10:58:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 11 Sep 2001 10:58:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.31.20) by mta2 with SMTP; 11 Sep 2001 10:58:56 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 03:58:53 -0700 Received: from 213.139.192.139 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:58:52 GMT X-Originating-IP: [213.139.192.139] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Sep 2001 10:58:53.0178 (UTC) FILETIME=[BEBCBDA0:01C13AB0] From: "Ali Asker Savas" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:58:52 +0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] salute ekumenics! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: cc8ee27c90bef2bc1d5ffb4623edbfae Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 637 Salute Ekumenics, My name is asker, from middle-east or "middlelandsea!" honestly, whatever you like :) salute all of you again _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Sep 14 18:08:59 2001 Received: from n20.groups.yahoo.com (n20.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.70]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA03609 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:37:29 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-310-1000507017-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by n20.onelist.org with NNFMP; 14 Sep 2001 22:36:57 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 14 Sep 2001 22:36:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 22589 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2001 21:00:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 14 Sep 2001 21:00:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 14 Sep 2001 20:59:55 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.112] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15i041-0003n2-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:59:54 +0100 Message-ID: <007701c13d60$141bb740$70887ed4@dan> To: References: <14b.247061.28bfd0e2@aol.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:58:59 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 109 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f73228328f7232e0db590a15d2fff904 Status: U belatedly replying to this, having now re-read all of The winds twelve quarters including this story. I had completely forgotten Ursula's own comments at the beginning (all except for her bit about reading signposts backwards!) She talks about the role of the scapegoat. But sorry - I don't find this convincing . Now if anyone has read Mary Renault's novels about ancient Greece she refers to the scspegoat in one of them. I can't remember which one - I'll have to see if I can track it down, but she says something like 'it came to the time of year when they drive out the scapegoat. They chose an ugly squinting fellow and '....don't remember but something to the effect that they stoned him to take away their sins, and things were very bad for the city at that point so they really laid in to him. I can see a city reverting to this type of mob behaviour far more easily than I can buy the cold locking away of the child in the cellar. Pray God that we don't see any innocent scapegoats being called upon to carry away the world's anger and grief at the moment Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 109 > In reply to Robin's reading of The Ones Who Walked Away from Omelas, I don't > find the story that negative. It seems to me that Le Guin shows great faith > in human nature when she states that some people living in an ideal society > would give it up and walk into a dark unknown if they thought that their > happiness was bought at the price of someone else's misery. Those people who > walk away are an almost daily inspiration to me. Judy > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Sep 15 07:37:16 2001 Received: from n1.groups.yahoo.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA17390 for ; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:59:19 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-311-1000540727-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by hh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 15 Sep 2001 07:58:47 -0000 X-Sender: aliaskeri@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 15 Sep 2001 07:58:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 67473 invoked from network); 15 Sep 2001 07:58:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 15 Sep 2001 07:58:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.31.41) by mta2 with SMTP; 15 Sep 2001 07:58:45 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 00:58:45 -0700 Received: from 213.139.198.243 by pv1fd.pav1.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:58:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [213.139.198.243] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Sep 2001 07:58:45.0166 (UTC) FILETIME=[3E4FFCE0:01C13DBC] From: "Ali Asker Savas" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:58:44 +0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] sorrow for all living and unliving forms.. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: db23578cd5cf953202a9a882c9264198 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 82 my sorrow is for all living forms, I don't believe any "God" but I share your words in my heart "Pray God that we don't see any innocent scapegoats being called upon to carry away the world's anger and grief at the moment" I am very sorry for all living forms and/ but unliving forms... ali >From: "Robins - one of" >Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 109 >Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 21:58:59 +0100 > >belatedly replying to this, having now re-read all of The winds twelve >quarters including this story. > >I had completely forgotten Ursula's own comments at the beginning (all >except for her bit about reading signposts backwards!) > >She talks about the role of the scapegoat. But sorry - I don't find this >convincing . Now if anyone has read Mary Renault's novels about ancient >Greece she refers to the scspegoat in one of them. I can't remember which >one - I'll have to see if I can track it down, but she says something like >'it came to the time of year when they drive out the scapegoat. They chose >an ugly squinting fellow and '....don't remember but something to the >effect >that they stoned him to take away their sins, and things were very bad for >the city at that point so they really laid in to him. I can see a city >reverting to this type of mob behaviour far more easily than I can buy the >cold locking away of the child in the cellar. > >Pray God that we don't see any innocent scapegoats being called upon to >carry away the world's anger and grief at the moment > >Hannah > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 6:24 PM >Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 109 > > > > In reply to Robin's reading of The Ones Who Walked Away from Omelas, I >don't > > find the story that negative. It seems to me that Le Guin shows great >faith > > in human nature when she states that some people living in an ideal >society > > would give it up and walk into a dark unknown if they thought that their > > happiness was bought at the price of someone else's misery. Those >people >who > > walk away are an almost daily inspiration to me. Judy > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 23 09:09:08 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (n10.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.60]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8N3udT27667 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2001 20:56:39 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-312-1001217384-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2001 03:56:24 -0000 X-Sender: mikeantholy@yahoo.ca X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 23 Sep 2001 03:56:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 88860 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2001 03:56:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Sep 2001 03:56:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n15.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.1.31) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Sep 2001 03:56:23 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: mikeantholy@yahoo.ca Received: from [10.1.2.23] by ml.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2001 03:56:23 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9ojmh6+iv5g@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 64.106.24.51 From: "M. Antholy" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 03:56:22 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] A question on Smarandache social paradox Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3f0eda9e5ce12c9a3bae3b936f75cd1f Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 181 In a democracy should the nondemocratic ideas be allowed? a) If yes, i.e. the nondemocratic ideas are allowed, then one not has a democracy anymore. (The nondemocratic ideas may overturn the society.) b) If no, i.e. other ideas are not allowed - even those nondemocratic -, then one not has a democracy either, because the freedom of speech is restricted. What is your opinion? Reference: Smarandache, Florentin, "Neutrosophy. / Neutrosophic Probability, Set, and Logic", American Research Press, Rehoboth, 1989. http://www.gallup.unm.edu/~smarandache/sociology.htm ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 23 09:09:08 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8N4oET28447 for ; Sat, 22 Sep 2001 21:50:14 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-313-1001220561-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.224] by hj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2001 04:49:59 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 23 Sep 2001 04:49:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 182 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2001 04:49:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.224 with QMQP; 23 Sep 2001 04:49:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (208.2.166.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Sep 2001 04:49:58 -0000 Received: from [208.2.167.64] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 11849470 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 22 Sep 2001 21:53:52 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010922214955.007ed9d0@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9ojmh6+iv5g@eGroups.com> From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2001 21:49:55 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] A question on Smarandache social paradox Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 98509936afd9314a4db862b89ba76934 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 186 At 03:56 AM 9/23/01 -0000, you wrote: > In a democracy should the nondemocratic ideas be allowed? >a) If yes, i.e. the nondemocratic ideas are allowed, then one not has >a >democracy anymore. (The nondemocratic ideas may overturn the >society.) One still has a democratic society if one allows nondemocratic ideas in. It is only after the non-dem ideas "overturn the society" that a democratic society may fall. And, the operational word is "MAY." No guarantees anywhere, folks. Not allowing them means one has "already" lost that society. Given the choice between having already lost and the possibility of losing a democratic society, I'll take the latter for there is no necessary link between letting different ideas in and losing a democratic society. In fact, I would argue just the opposite. -=Fred=- After the goddess sang, in silence she became a small, shy green bird - Onitsura - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 23 09:10:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n34.groups.yahoo.com (n34.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.84]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8NF30T02146 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 08:03:00 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-314-1001257365-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2001 15:02:45 -0000 X-Sender: xaraf@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 23 Sep 2001 15:02:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 34150 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2001 15:02:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Sep 2001 15:02:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.21.29) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Sep 2001 15:02:44 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 08:02:44 -0700 Received: from 62.103.218.88 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:02:43 GMT X-Originating-IP: [62.103.218.88] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Sep 2001 15:02:44.0094 (UTC) FILETIME=[CC6659E0:01C14440] From: "chara fyseki" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:02:43 +0300 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 121 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 1d2dfc5db26b1f2ace91e535ed906646 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 236 who has the final word on what is or is not a nondemokratic idea? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 23 09:10:34 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n7.groups.yahoo.com (n7.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.57]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8NFsNT03343 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 08:54:25 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-315-1001260447-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2001 15:54:07 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 23 Sep 2001 15:54:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 4360 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2001 15:54:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 Sep 2001 15:54:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-1.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Sep 2001 15:54:05 -0000 Received: from [207.229.142.190] (207-229-142-190.d.enteract.com [207.229.142.190]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528E66221 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 10:54:04 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 10:53:56 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 121 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 93fe641faf376be8c0322e566c909d7d >who has the final word on what is or is not a nondemokratic idea? In a democracy, there is never a final word. The conversation never ends. That's kind of the point, I think. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 23 12:37:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8NIE3T08358 for ; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:14:03 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-316-1001268801-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.223] by ho.egroups.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2001 18:13:47 -0000 X-Sender: fredr@gci-net.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 23 Sep 2001 18:13:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 99511 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2001 18:13:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 23 Sep 2001 18:13:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gci-net.com) (216.183.68.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 23 Sep 2001 18:13:46 -0000 Received: from [208.32.92.216] (HELO fredrunk) by gci-net.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.5) with SMTP id 11883802 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:17:44 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.20010923111343.007ede20@208.2.166.100> X-Sender: fredr@208.2.166.100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: From: Fred Runk MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 11:13:43 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 121 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: d6e2228bf3e431b788a5b09e6dc5565f At 10:53 AM 9/23/01 -0500, you wrote: >>who has the final word on what is or is not a nondemokratic idea? > >In a democracy, there is never a final word. The conversation never >ends. That's kind of the point, I think. > >Dave Beautiful answer. Seldom is it put so well and so succinctly. -=Fred=- After the goddess sang, in silence she became a small, shy green bird - Onitsura - email: fredr@gci-net.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Sep 24 14:54:09 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n27.groups.yahoo.com (n27.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8OLJ4T07947 for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 14:19:04 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-317-1001366327-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by fh.egroups.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2001 21:18:47 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 24 Sep 2001 21:18:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 6560 invoked from network); 24 Sep 2001 21:11:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 24 Sep 2001 21:11:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 24 Sep 2001 21:11:26 -0000 Received: from [195.8.79.33] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15ld0e-000NyL-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 24 Sep 2001 22:11:25 +0100 Message-ID: <001801c1453d$52070d40$214f08c3@dan> To: References: <3.0.5.32.20010923111343.007ede20@208.2.166.100> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 22:09:54 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 121 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a7d755a55d9401ddf3a34e5c5f5c04b3 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 147 yes like love it 'doesn't just sit there, like a stone, it has to be made, like bread; re-made all the time, made new' welcome back after a long stunned silence, so good to open my e-mail and see at last this conversation moving again who said 'I disagree with everything you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it'? - can't find it in my dictionary of quotations Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Runk To: Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 121 > At 10:53 AM 9/23/01 -0500, you wrote: > >>who has the final word on what is or is not a nondemokratic idea? > > > >In a democracy, there is never a final word. The conversation never > >ends. That's kind of the point, I think. > > > >Dave > > > Beautiful answer. Seldom is it put so well and so succinctly. > > > -=Fred=- > > After the goddess > sang, in silence she became > a small, shy green bird > - Onitsura - > > email: fredr@gci-net.com > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Sep 25 11:21:24 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n25.groups.yahoo.com (n25.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.75]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8PHpCT24487 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 10:51:12 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-318-1001440254-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by mv.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Sep 2001 17:50:54 -0000 X-Sender: smurray@yebo.co.za X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 25 Sep 2001 17:50:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 53215 invoked from network); 25 Sep 2001 17:40:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 25 Sep 2001 17:40:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n20.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.2.66) by mta1 with SMTP; 25 Sep 2001 17:40:06 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: smurray@yebo.co.za Received: from [10.1.10.34] by n20.onelist.org with NNFMP; 25 Sep 2001 17:40:06 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9oqfhi+o9mb@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 163.203.133.110 From: smurray@yebo.co.za MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:40:02 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] what does "genly" mean? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: e0bda3083e81dd99cb3adccae5f86045 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 61 Hi Just joined, searched the archive, as well as the internet, have a question for you clever people. Does anyone have any idea where the name "Genly" (as in Genly Ai Terraven from "Left hand of darkness") comes from? Is it a parody on some word? A wordplay perhaps? Does it have a specific meaning? My only thought is that it is a shortened version of "genderly", but even this much is a guess more than an educated opinion. Sincerely Samuel Murray-Smit on behalf of my son, Genly ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Sep 25 12:17:30 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n35.groups.yahoo.com (n35.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.85]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8PJ88T00380 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:08:08 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-319-1001444804-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.220] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Sep 2001 19:07:50 -0000 X-Sender: xaraf@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 25 Sep 2001 19:06:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 6800 invoked from network); 25 Sep 2001 18:52:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 25 Sep 2001 18:52:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.21.191) by mta2 with SMTP; 25 Sep 2001 18:53:27 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:53:27 -0700 Received: from 62.103.218.115 by lw14fd.law14.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 18:53:27 GMT X-Originating-IP: [62.103.218.115] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Sep 2001 18:53:27.0621 (UTC) FILETIME=[5C9C6F50:01C145F3] From: "chara fyseki" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:53:27 +0300 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 123 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 10acfacd61a041116bd8e7b2559dba3d you wrote: In a democracy, there is never a final word. The conversation never > >ends. That's kind of the point, I think. I agree but some people can't exept that they don't know all the answers _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/47cccB/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Sep 25 19:52:21 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n23.groups.yahoo.com (n23.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.73]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8PKPkT05941 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:25:46 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-320-1001449528-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by ck.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Sep 2001 20:25:28 -0000 X-Sender: dbratman@stanford.edu X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 25 Sep 2001 20:25:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 29316 invoked from network); 25 Sep 2001 20:07:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 25 Sep 2001 20:07:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp1.Stanford.EDU) (171.64.14.23) by mta2 with SMTP; 25 Sep 2001 20:07:43 -0000 Received: from sls-258c (sls-258c.Stanford.EDU [171.64.212.237]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.11.1/8.11.3) with SMTP id f8PK7gi06177 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20010925130448.00a2dec0@dbratman.pobox.stanford.edu> X-Sender: dbratman@dbratman.pobox.stanford.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <9oqfhi+o9mb@eGroups.com> From: "David S. Bratman" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:07:45 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] what does "genly" mean? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f2647e76075df2eafd7afe2447620f0c Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5 I believe it's "Henry" as pronounced by a people who have difficulty with some of the English sounds. Russian, for instance, lacks an H, and usually transcribes foreign H's as G's. L/R overlap in some languages is also well-attested. David Bratman At 10:40 AM 9/25/2001 , Samuel Murray-Smit wrote: >Just joined, searched the archive, as well as the internet, have a question >for you clever people. Does anyone have any idea where the name "Genly" (as >in Genly Ai Terraven from "Left hand of darkness") comes from? Is it a >parody on some word? A wordplay perhaps? Does it have a specific meaning? >My only thought is that it is a shortened version of "genderly", but even >this much is a guess more than an educated opinion. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Sep 25 19:52:23 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n7.groups.yahoo.com (n7.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.57]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8PLgnT10794 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:42:50 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-321-1001454085-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.220] by fj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 25 Sep 2001 21:42:31 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_3_2_2); 25 Sep 2001 21:41:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 30297 invoked from network); 25 Sep 2001 21:27:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 25 Sep 2001 21:27:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 25 Sep 2001 21:28:36 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-49.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.49]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f8PLSZg26473 for ; Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:28:35 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BB10644.5F17A563@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:33:40 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 123 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a8b9b2da3f27b3b964b9d419ee19f546 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 24 > > In a democracy, there is never a final word. The conversation never > > >ends. That's kind of the point, I think. > This reminds me of The Telling, which I just finished re-reading. Perhaps a good, working democracy would look a little like the Telling? Grey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/MDsVHB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Sep 28 20:10:02 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n6.groups.yahoo.com (n6.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.56]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8T16QT21733 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 18:06:26 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-322-1001725479-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.221] by hm.egroups.com with NNFMP; 29 Sep 2001 01:06:05 -0000 X-Sender: heyiya@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 29 Sep 2001 01:04:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 79096 invoked from network); 29 Sep 2001 01:04:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 29 Sep 2001 01:04:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net) (207.217.120.65) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 Sep 2001 01:06:04 -0000 Received: from [63.178.64.79] (sdn-ar-004orportP323.dialsprint.net [63.178.68.229]) by robin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (8.11.5/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f8T162L20643 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2001 18:06:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: heyiya@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3BB10644.5F17A563@pcisys.net> References: <3BB10644.5F17A563@pcisys.net> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: heather w MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 18:09:40 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] official website Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: b7fc0be287cfe2d3ff45555230b20978 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 361 UKL's website is up, with book exerpts and other fun things: http://www.ursulakleguin.com Heather * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * heather whipple heyiya@earthlink.net ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ujOgTC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 30 21:21:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f8UNtTT10492 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 16:55:29 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-323-1001894106-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.222] by hp.egroups.com with NNFMP; 30 Sep 2001 23:55:06 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 30 Sep 2001 23:55:06 -0000 Received: (qmail 44188 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2001 23:55:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 30 Sep 2001 23:55:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.122) by mta2 with SMTP; 30 Sep 2001 23:55:05 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([62.31.140.206]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Mon, 1 Oct 2001 00:55:24 +0100 Message-ID: <3BB7B021.3334159B@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <3.0.5.32.20010923111343.007ede20@208.2.166.100> <001801c1453d$52070d40$214f08c3@dan> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 00:52:00 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] >who said 'I disagree...'? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 2249acc66da046bc70ba7bac6fbc839d "Robins - one of" (Hannah) wrote: > who said 'I disagree with everything you say but I will defend to the death > your right to say it'? - can't find it in my dictionary of quotations This looks like 'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.' which (according to the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations 3rd edition) was attributed to Voltaire by S G Tallentyre (whoever she/he is). chiz chiz rdg ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ujOgTC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Sep 30 21:21:04 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (n10.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.60]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f910gvT12149 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:42:57 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-324-1001896826-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.220] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Oct 2001 00:42:16 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 1 Oct 2001 00:40:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 92834 invoked from network); 1 Oct 2001 00:40:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 1 Oct 2001 00:40:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.125) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Oct 2001 00:42:14 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([62.31.140.206]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Mon, 1 Oct 2001 01:42:33 +0100 Message-ID: <3BB7BB2E.E16142FF@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <9ojmh6+iv5g@eGroups.com> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 01:39:10 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] A question on Smarandache social paradox Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 092f853657df2945cb75719588d5ff66 "M. Antholy" wrote: > In a democracy should the nondemocratic ideas be allowed? > a) If yes, i.e. the nondemocratic ideas are allowed, then one not has > a > democracy anymore. (The nondemocratic ideas may overturn the > society.) > b) If no, i.e. other ideas are not allowed - even those > nondemocratic -, then > one not has a democracy either, because the freedom of speech is > restricted. This looks rather like Russell's paradox to me. Godel's incompleteness theorems say that there are limits to formal reasoning. Beyond such limits lie innumerable self contradictory statements. But hey!, that's the nature of our universe. As to the practicalities of democracy, I find myself resorting to a handful of cliches: the price of freedom is eternal vigilance; power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely; don't vote - the government always get in; I could go on. chiz chiz rdg PS please excuse missing umlaut, acute. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ujOgTC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 02 11:13:46 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n34.groups.yahoo.com (n34.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.84]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f920YLl26079 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:34:21 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-325-1001982837-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by mk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2001 00:33:57 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 00:33:56 -0000 Received: (qmail 33984 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 00:33:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 00:33:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.165) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 00:33:56 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:33:56 -0700 Received: from 203.109.252.12 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 00:33:56 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.12] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Oct 2001 00:33:56.0360 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB912080:01C14AD9] From: "Jenn Martin" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 12:33:56 +1200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Jan Mark and a Le Guin dedication Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 08e1d82a9b012455a5fa65467fe3c269 Status: RO X-Status: F X-Keywords: X-UID: 48 Has anyone read by Jan Mark? I went to a bookstore on Friday night after work (yes, us librarians just flit from one bookish place to another, travelling the aether like light and sound) and found this book in the children's section. It looked interesting, I was pretty keen on buying it, then I opened it and saw the dedication in clear black letters: 'for Ursula Le Guin'. It gave me a marvelous shivery feeling, the kind you got as a kid in the library when you found a book and knew it was going to change you somehow (the way Le Guin felt when she saw that mysterious eye on the cover of Lord of the Rings staring at her from the shelf). I'd be interested to hear what anyone thought of it, Phillip Pullman said of it "read it and be amazed". Jenn _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 02 11:14:22 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f92D4hl09025 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 06:04:43 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-326-1002027858-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.222] by n30.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2001 13:04:18 -0000 X-Sender: jhyde@christschool.org X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 13:04:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 56286 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 13:04:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 13:04:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.christschool.org) (208.131.129.57) by mta3 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 13:04:17 -0000 Received: from christschool.org (www.christschool.org [208.131.129.58]) by mail.christschool.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f92D76d10710 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 09:07:06 -0400 Message-ID: <3BB9BD6B.C5A034D8@christschool.org> Organization: Christ School St. Dunstan's Library X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Jane Hyde MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 09:13:15 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Jan Mark and a Le Guin dedication Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 7c34f7d8c62296d0ba9d57ab79003a5e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 126 Wow -- I'll look it up. No, I haven't read it, but Jan Mark is a very fine writer, who I think has won the Carnegie Medal at least once. and I'll read anything that Philip Pullman recommends so highly.... Thanks, Jenn. Jenn Martin wrote: > > Has anyone read by Jan Mark? > > I > I'd be interested to hear what anyone thought of it, Phillip Pullman > said of > it "read it and be amazed". > > Jenn > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > [Image] > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. -- Jane Hyde, Librarian St. Dunstan Library Christ School Arden, NC 28704 jhyde@christschool.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 02 18:22:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f92JRVl25497 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:27:31 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-327-1002050711-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.221] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2001 19:27:06 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 19:25:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 53394 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 19:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 19:25:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 19:27:04 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.141] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15oVC2-000Iyf-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 02 Oct 2001 20:27:02 +0100 Message-ID: <001601c14b78$09aee4a0$8d887ed4@dan> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:25:24 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Compass Rose Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f4807681ab3fa8ccb4f90c79b1d287b6 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9 I have been re-reading Compass Rose. Amazing! the only two stories I could remember at all were some that were published again in later collections - The Author of the Accacia Seeds (which doesn't do a lot for me) and Mazes (which is really excellent - picked leaves!) Looking at the date it was published I guess I first read it when my first daughter was born. I do remember being disappointed - but I think it was probably just part of the brain scrambling thing that that stage of your life gets you into. Speaking of which I did LOL (as usay) at Intracom, Insane Second Mate and all. So I have to unsay my previous comments that UKL does not make me laugh. What else do people laugh at? Hannah [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 02 18:22:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n12.groups.yahoo.com (n12.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.62]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f92K2Bl27575 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:02:11 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-328-1002052906-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by n12.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2001 20:01:46 -0000 X-Sender: dorothea@terracom.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 20:01:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 78250 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 20:01:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 20:01:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mendota.terracom.net) (208.170.71.129) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 20:01:45 -0000 Received: from pc (3C2-135.terracom.net [208.170.95.135]) by mendota.terracom.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27346 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:01:16 -0500 (CDT) To: Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <001601c14b78$09aee4a0$8d887ed4@dan> From: "Dorothea Salo" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:00:53 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] Compass Rose Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 19425ab332a843e41ca73e1ccffb4fda Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 16 > I have been re-reading Compass Rose. Amazing! the only two stories I > could remember at all were some that were published again in later > collections - The Author of the Accacia Seeds (which doesn't do a lot > for me) Maybe you have to be a linguistics geek. I like "Acacia Seeds," and confess (tying this into another thread) that its jabs at academic pretentiousness make me giggle. > Speaking of which I did LOL > (as usay) at Intracom, Insane Second Mate and all. So I have to > unsay my previous comments that UKL does not make me laugh. Reading "Intracom" aloud is a great party game, if you have sufficient numbers of geeks of the female persuasion to do it. > What else do people laugh at? I find most of UKL's humor a bit heavy-handed for my taste. "Encounter with the Gorgonids" is so ugly that it leaves me cold. "Ascent of the North Face" is cute but not cute enough to redeem its essential contentlessness. There are some marvelously funny bits in _Always Coming Home_, though. The brief insult-slinging between a couple of towns never fails to make me grin. Dorothea ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 02 18:22:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n14.groups.yahoo.com (n14.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.64]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f92KUTl29478 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:30:30 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-329-1002054605-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.222] by n14.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2001 20:30:05 -0000 X-Sender: dbratman@stanford.edu X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 20:30:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 22938 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 20:30:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 20:30:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp2.Stanford.EDU) (171.64.14.116) by mta2 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 20:30:00 -0000 Received: from sls-258c (sls-258c.Stanford.EDU [171.64.212.237]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f92KTxd20975 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20011002131641.00a4d3f0@dbratman.pobox.stanford.edu> X-Sender: dbratman@dbratman.pobox.stanford.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <001601c14b78$09aee4a0$8d887ed4@dan> From: "David S. Bratman" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 13:30:05 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Compass Rose Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 8980562e5d609110720536a76e84fd9a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 23 "Author of the Acacia Seeds" is one of my favorites, especially the breezy informality of the invitation to the Penguin expedition. It's almost like the Monty Python routine studying the comparative intelligence of penguins and BBC programme planners. I also like "SQ" for its caustic quality which seems so characteristic of _Compass Rose_ in general, but entirely absent from _Wind's 12_ and only sporadically reappears in her later work (Dorothea mentions bits of _Always Coming Home_, and there's a fair amount in her poetry). But what actually makes me laugh? The mock review of _The Beginning Place_ (it's in _Dancing at the Edge of the World_). Her audio reading of "Intracom" on an old record. Her retelling of the Panda joke in _Steering the Craft_. The horrible pun in "The Great Instrument of the Geggerets". David Bratman ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 02 18:22:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n34.groups.yahoo.com (n34.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.84]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f92LZ6l03622 for ; Tue, 2 Oct 2001 14:35:07 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-330-1002058481-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by n34.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2001 21:34:41 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 2 Oct 2001 21:34:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 35199 invoked from network); 2 Oct 2001 21:34:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Oct 2001 21:34:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n17.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.1.36) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Oct 2001 21:34:39 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: jdawley@bellatlantic.net Received: from [10.1.10.100] by n17.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 Oct 2001 21:22:50 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9pdb76+sdp1@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 207.140.66.216 From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:22:46 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] I've finally read *Tales from Earthsea* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 89b61d8169cd300620caef5d3dd27bde Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 35 OK, *Tales from Earthsea* has been out for five months now (at least in the US). Over the weekend I finally plucked it from my to-be-read pile and devoured it. Now I am curious what others thought of it. Here's how it seemed to me... BEWARE -- Spoilers Ahead! I must admit that I found the first couple of stories slow going. The first half of "The Finder" held my attention nicely (quicksilver mining, very creepy Gelluk, intriguing Anieb), but thereafter the tale seemed to ramble toward its somewhat dull ending. "Darkrose and Diamond" was a fairly bloodless version of the ambition vs. love story that Le Guin has written about before, in "Another Story" and *Tehanu*. I am coming to realize that Le Guin's "tell, don't show" approach to most romances frustrates me quite a bit. There was so little development of the main characters' relationship in the story that it felt empty to me. With "The Bones of the Earth", things began to pick up. The focus was sharp and clear, and refreshingly it had nothing to do with Roke. I very much liked the idea of "local knowledge" and Heleth's special bond with the island of Gont. His sacrifice was mysterious and moving. And I liked the appearance of the younger Ogion, and his use- name, Silence. The last two stories are, to me, the highlights of the collection. It has been so long since I read the other Earthsea books that I had no clue who Irioth was. Has he ever been mentioned before? In any case, I thought Le Guin did an outstanding job of depicting his shaky grip on sanity -- the thoughts and people he avoids because he fears what he might do, the bizarre things he says at times. I particularly liked the moment when he gave Gift the gold coin, she exclaimed that the whole village didn't have enough money to change it, and he replied uneasily, "It hasn't been changed." He hears the word and thinks Changed, as in magically transformed from one thing to another -- the intended meaning slips right by him because his frame of reference is so focused on what he fears -- wizardry, competition, jealousy. Post traumatic stress disorder? Ged's appearance and explanation of Irioth's condition near the end seemed a bit exposition-heavy, but I loved that the archmage slept in the barn! "Dragonfly" surprised me. Not because the main character turned out to be a dragon (*Tehanu* prepared me for that), but because of the way the story progressed. Ivory could very easily have been played as a colorless villain, but he was not. Some of his motives were nasty, but in the end his actions were not only harmless but helpful to Irian. Was his final reconciliation with her due to some inherent decency in him or her inherent dragonness refusing to be manipulated? The question is never answered, for which I am grateful. I like a little ambiguity. And a little profanity. Irian's outbursts of cursing were always amusing and occasionally startling. The moment when she noticed Thorion watching her from the streambank and stood up shouting was very strange -- it was almost as if she were speaking in tongues. After all, she had been polite to him earlier, even though he made her think of an open grave. Their confrontation on Roke Knoll was very quick, rushed even, but it worked for me. Now I burn to know -- what is with these people turning into dragons?! Happily, there's already *The Other Wind* to tell me... I hope. I'm on to that next. How did these tales strike other people? What are your favorites? Least favorites? Perhaps we could have a little discussion. ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Boiled in Lead -- Alloy "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 02 23:21:24 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n32.groups.yahoo.com (n32.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.82]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f93FXal01499 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 08:33:36 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-331-1002123190-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by n32.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Oct 2001 15:33:10 -0000 X-Sender: Kimberly.McCollum-Clark@millersville.edu X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 3 Oct 2001 15:33:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 1122 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2001 15:33:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 Oct 2001 15:33:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.millersville.edu) (166.66.56.75) by mta2 with SMTP; 3 Oct 2001 15:33:08 -0000 Received: by mail1.millersville.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:33:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: "'the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-eGroups-From: Kimberly McCollum-Clark From: Kimberly McCollum-Clark MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:33:07 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] I've finally read *Tales from Earthsea* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 4a2ed2264ec9875b1a027aed3f26c3f1 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 Hi, Janice. I too inhaled Tales from Earthsea earlier this year (I had it pre-ordered from Amazon!), and I want to respond and start a discussion, but I feel unprepared. I remember being dazzled by Irian and moved by the Finder story, but I want to re-read so I can be a more cogent discussant! Cheers. Kim > ---------- > From: Janice E. Dawley > Reply To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2001 5:22 PM > To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [the-ekumen] I've finally read *Tales from Earthsea* > > OK, *Tales from Earthsea* has been out for five months now (at least > in the US). Over the weekend I finally plucked it from my to-be-read > pile and devoured it. Now I am curious what others thought of it. > Here's how it seemed to me... > > BEWARE -- Spoilers Ahead! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I must admit that I found the first couple of stories slow going. The > first half of "The Finder" held my attention nicely (quicksilver > mining, very creepy Gelluk, intriguing Anieb), but thereafter the > tale seemed to ramble toward its somewhat dull ending. "Darkrose and > Diamond" was a fairly bloodless version of the ambition vs. love > story that Le Guin has written about before, in "Another Story" and > *Tehanu*. I am coming to realize that Le Guin's "tell, don't show" > approach to most romances frustrates me quite a bit. There was so > little development of the main characters' relationship in the story > that it felt empty to me. > > With "The Bones of the Earth", things began to pick up. The focus was > sharp and clear, and refreshingly it had nothing to do with Roke. I > very much liked the idea of "local knowledge" and Heleth's special > bond with the island of Gont. His sacrifice was mysterious and > moving. And I liked the appearance of the younger Ogion, and his use- > name, Silence. > > The last two stories are, to me, the highlights of the collection. It > has been so long since I read the other Earthsea books that I had no > clue who Irioth was. Has he ever been mentioned before? In any case, > I thought Le Guin did an outstanding job of depicting his shaky grip > on sanity -- the thoughts and people he avoids because he fears what > he might do, the bizarre things he says at times. I particularly > liked the moment when he gave Gift the gold coin, she exclaimed that > the whole village didn't have enough money to change it, and he > replied uneasily, "It hasn't been changed." He hears the word and > thinks Changed, as in magically transformed from one thing to > another -- the intended meaning slips right by him because his frame > of reference is so focused on what he fears -- wizardry, competition, > jealousy. Post traumatic stress disorder? Ged's appearance and > explanation of Irioth's condition near the end seemed a bit > exposition-heavy, but I loved that the archmage slept in the barn! > > "Dragonfly" surprised me. Not because the main character turned out > to be a dragon (*Tehanu* prepared me for that), but because of the > way the story progressed. Ivory could very easily have been played as > a colorless villain, but he was not. Some of his motives were nasty, > but in the end his actions were not only harmless but helpful to > Irian. Was his final reconciliation with her due to some inherent > decency in him or her inherent dragonness refusing to be manipulated? > The question is never answered, for which I am grateful. I like a > little ambiguity. And a little profanity. Irian's outbursts of > cursing were always amusing and occasionally startling. The moment > when she noticed Thorion watching her from the streambank and stood > up shouting was very strange -- it was almost as if she were speaking > in tongues. After all, she had been polite to him earlier, even > though he made her think of an open grave. Their confrontation on > Roke Knoll was very quick, rushed even, but it worked for me. Now I > burn to know -- what is with these people turning into dragons?! > Happily, there's already *The Other Wind* to tell me... I hope. I'm > on to that next. > > How did these tales strike other people? What are your favorites? > Least favorites? Perhaps we could have a little discussion. > > ----- > Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT > http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ > Listening to: Boiled in Lead -- Alloy > "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; > the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and > servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 02 23:21:39 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n18.groups.yahoo.com (n18.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.68]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f93I4Nl09100 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:04:23 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-332-1002132115-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.221] by n18.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Oct 2001 18:03:57 -0000 X-Sender: dfabi@shrike.depaul.edu X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 3 Oct 2001 18:01:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 59666 invoked from network); 3 Oct 2001 18:01:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 3 Oct 2001 18:01:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n23.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.2.83) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Oct 2001 18:03:56 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: dfabi@shrike.depaul.edu Received: from [10.1.2.109] by n23.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 03 Oct 2001 18:03:55 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9pfju7+abr1@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4.1.20011002131641.00a4d3f0@dbratman.pobox.stanford.edu> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 140.192.38.73 From: "Dexter Fabi" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:03:51 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Compass Rose Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 1d102df9b18920ad3b8bfed6ac8464dd Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 132 --- In the-ekumen@y..., "David S. Bratman" wrote: > "Author of the Acacia Seeds" is one of my favorites, especially the breezy > informality of the invitation to the Penguin expedition. It's almost like > the Monty Python routine studying the comparative intelligence of penguins > and BBC programme planners. > > I also like "SQ" for its caustic quality which seems so characteristic of > _Compass Rose_ in general, but entirely absent from _Wind's 12_ and only > sporadically reappears in her later work (Dorothea mentions bits of _Always > Coming Home_, and there's a fair amount in her poetry). > > But what actually makes me laugh? The mock review of _The Beginning Place_ > (it's in _Dancing at the Edge of the World_). Her audio reading of > "Intracom" on an old record. Her retelling of the Panda joke in _Steering > the Craft_. The horrible pun in "The Great Instrument of the Geggerets". For laughs, don't forget her short story "The Royals of Hegn," published in Asimov's a while back. This is probably one of funniest tales she's ever penned. The last few paragraphs will make anyone laugh enough to cry. The way she turns worlds compeletely upside down is nothing short of virtuotic. -Dexter ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 02 23:22:41 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com (n11.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.61]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9415el02504 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 18:05:40 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-333-1002157093-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.222] by n11.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Oct 2001 00:58:13 -0000 X-Sender: dorothea@terracom.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 4 Oct 2001 00:58:12 -0000 Received: (qmail 54064 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2001 00:58:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 4 Oct 2001 00:58:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mendota.terracom.net) (208.170.71.129) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 Oct 2001 00:58:10 -0000 Received: from [208.170.95.122] (3C2-122.terracom.net [208.170.95.122]) by mendota.terracom.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20571 for ; Wed, 3 Oct 2001 19:57:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9pdb76+sdp1@eGroups.com> References: <9pdb76+sdp1@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dorothea Salo MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 19:59:49 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] I've finally read *Tales from Earthsea* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 8d8620403f807bea68743cf6a37d33b0 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 251 >OK, *Tales from Earthsea* has been out for five months now (at least >in the US). Over the weekend I finally plucked it from my to-be-read >pile and devoured it. Now I am curious what others thought of it. Happy to talk about it. >Here's how it seemed to me... > >BEWARE -- Spoilers Ahead! > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I must admit that I found the first couple of stories slow going. The >first half of "The Finder" held my attention nicely (quicksilver >mining, very creepy Gelluk, intriguing Anieb), but thereafter the >tale seemed to ramble toward its somewhat dull ending. I think you're right that the story falls into two rather sharply differing parts. I don't think I minded as much as you did, though; after the relentless destruction -- of lives, of skill, of hope, of society -- all through the first part, I was happy to read about the building-up of Roke in the second. A very LeGuinnish division, I thought: destroy, then rebuild. Rebuilding is always a bit slower and more deliberate than destruction. > "Darkrose and >Diamond" was a fairly bloodless version of the ambition vs. love >story that Le Guin has written about before, in "Another Story" and >*Tehanu*. Where are you seeing this with _Tehanu_? I'm curious. The case of Ged seems more that of the individual who has achieved every imaginable ambition and has to figure out what to do next. (How *do* you retire a hero?) Tenar did not so much choose love over ambition as lack ambition in the first place. Tehanu herself has her ambitions fulfilled in _The Other Wind_. > I am coming to realize that Le Guin's "tell, don't show" >approach to most romances frustrates me quite a bit. There was so >little development of the main characters' relationship in the story >that it felt empty to me. Wish I didn't agree with you, but I do. I thought the Lebannen-Seserakh relationship in _The Other Wind_ was terribly mishandled in precisely the same way. (I thought Seserakh got shortchanged all around, as I've said before. Potentially fascinating character, largely wasted. No spoilers in this para; anyone who can't figure out what's going to happen as soon as Seserakh is introduced can't really be reading.) Curiously, LeGuin does marvelously well with mature love: Tenar and Ged, Medra and Elehal, Emer and Irioth. It's young love that she has difficulty with. I guess that's an occupational hazard of marrying happily once. :) >The last two stories are, to me, the highlights of the collection. It >has been so long since I read the other Earthsea books that I had no >clue who Irioth was. Has he ever been mentioned before? I went and looked too, thinking that so powerful and fascinating a character must have had a mention somewhere. Nope. Nothing. (Except the mention in "Dragonfly," which doesn't count.) "On the High Marsh" is my favorite from this book, though I haven't much to add to your review of it. It is so terribly rare to see a brain-sick person treated with any sympathy or understanding. I also, young though I am, very much appreciate LeGuin's willingness to write powerfully about women who don't happen to be under the (apparent) age of 30, single, and drop-dead gorgeous. Wish more fantasy writers would catch on to this. My favorite part of the story is the ending, though. A sweeter and more original expression of love I would be hard-pressed to find. It's quite perfect. There are many excellent characters in _Tales_, major and minor. I think my best-loved, though, is poor Azver the Patterner, who dares to care for a dragon. Heartbreakingly quixotic -- yet who else would dare, save one already brave enough to leave his own culture behind and excel in an entirely new and not unhostile one? I would like to see more of Azver; I hope LeGuin likes him half as much as I do. > Now I >burn to know -- what is with these people turning into dragons?! >Happily, there's already *The Other Wind* to tell me... I hope. I'm >on to that next. LeGuin does answer the question of how people turn into dragons in _The Other Wind_. I don't like her answer (though I won't spoil it here), and hope it turns out to be wrong, just as some Roke-ian assumptions about the nature of magic have been shown to be wrong. I went back and reread _Tehanu_ immediately after first reading "Dragonfly." Something that struck me about the dragon-people was that they're all women (hey, I'm NOT complaining!), and those we have some acquaintance with suffer significant abuse as children. (We don't know anything about the Woman of Kemay except what Tenar tells us secondhand, so I don't think she either affirms or contradicts my thesis.) My husband disagrees with me, but I think "Dragonfly" hints pretty strongly that Irian is sexually abused (as well as neglected, obviously) by her father. To me, that explains why Ivory's love-charm has the effect it does on her -- it's not her dragon nature, it's her defenses against forced sex asserting themselves. (And serve Ivory right. Her reaction to Thorion is not dissimilar.) Tehanu, of course, is simply brutalized. (Bear with me. There *is* a point to this.) On rereading _Tehanu_, I noticed a number of hints that Tenar herself has some dragon-nature, particularly in Tehanu's reaction to the static sparks from her hair. ("Yes. You are a red dragon.") Tenar fits the profile: she wasn't treated especially gently as Arha. So how does dragon-nature express itself in humans, then? I came to the conclusion that it is resilience, the capacity to transcend suffering and injustice and evil, to recognize them for what they are without giving in to them. I can well believe that such a quality is what the dragons respond to in the dragonlords. Everyone in Earthsea should have some dragon-nature; the question is how much, and how and when it expresses itself. Tenar comes to her transcendence too late to become a dragon, I think; Tehanu and Irian do, because they triumph much sooner, before they are entirely set in their ways as humans. Likewise, dragons should have some human-nature, though how *that* expresses itself I don't know. I accept that I am probably wrong about this, but I *still* like my conclusion better than _The Other Wind_'s, which I found entirely retconny and ad-hoc and overliteral. I also like it, of course, because it implies a certain amount of hope for Azver in his love for Irian... Dorothea (next time: language in Earthsea, and why it makes no bloody sense) ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 02 23:24:24 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n32.groups.yahoo.com (n32.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.82]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f94HSrl25088 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:28:53 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-334-1002216506-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.222] by n32.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Oct 2001 17:28:26 -0000 X-Sender: Kimberly.McCollum-Clark@millersville.edu X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 4 Oct 2001 17:28:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 29801 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2001 17:28:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 4 Oct 2001 17:28:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.millersville.edu) (166.66.56.75) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Oct 2001 17:28:24 -0000 Received: by mail1.millersville.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <4HRA6V7G>; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:28:24 -0400 Message-ID: To: "'the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-eGroups-From: Kimberly McCollum-Clark From: Kimberly McCollum-Clark MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:28:23 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] UKL article in Salon today Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ca760fa801c6c1b6f1a67ff739157f9a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 449 Friends, I just read what I think is a terrific article on UKL and the new Earthsea offerings on Salon.com. URL to follow http://salon.com/books/feature/2001/10/04/earthsea/print.html I think it gets lots of things right, except I disagree that Tenar was one-dimensional in Tehanu. Kim ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 03 04:48:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n13.groups.yahoo.com (n13.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.63]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f94K5vl04995 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:05:57 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-335-1002225928-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by n13.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Oct 2001 20:05:28 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 4 Oct 2001 20:05:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 16001 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2001 20:05:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Oct 2001 20:05:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Oct 2001 20:05:26 -0000 Received: from [195.8.88.169] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15pEkH-00065O-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 04 Oct 2001 21:05:25 +0100 Message-ID: <001201c14d0f$bb1ef160$a95808c3@dan> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 21:04:08 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] UKL article in Salon today Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 2153748cbce1f6415a63c7e13f387c4d Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 13 Thanks, Kimberley, brilliant! (if frustrating to the UK where her 2 newest books not yet avialable) And I actually enjoyed the link article at the end http://www.salon.com/people/bc/2001/01/23/le_guin/index2.html even more Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Kimberly McCollum-Clark To: Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 6:28 PM Subject: [the-ekumen] UKL article in Salon today > Friends, I just read what I think is a terrific article on UKL and the new > Earthsea offerings on Salon.com. URL to follow > > > http://salon.com/books/feature/2001/10/04/earthsea/print.html > > I think it gets lots of things right, except I disagree that Tenar was > one-dimensional in Tehanu. > > Kim > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 03 04:48:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n5.groups.yahoo.com (n5.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.55]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f94KRGl06176 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 13:27:16 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-336-1002227209-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by n5.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Oct 2001 20:26:49 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 4 Oct 2001 20:26:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 47123 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2001 20:26:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Oct 2001 20:26:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Oct 2001 20:26:47 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f94KQkW21974 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 14:26:46 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BBCD524.DB855E65@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <001201c14d0f$bb1ef160$a95808c3@dan> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 14:31:17 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: UKL article in Salon today Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 17756fb562b8c9f2996f1fc7f12e5e9e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 Robins - one of wrote: > Thanks, Kimberley, brilliant! (if frustrating to the UK where her 2 newest > books not yet avialable) And I actually enjoyed the link article at the end > http://www.salon.com/people/bc/2001/01/23/le_guin/index2.html even more > > Hannah > > > Friends, I just read what I think is a terrific article on UKL and the new > > Earthsea offerings on Salon.com. URL to follow > > > > > > http://salon.com/books/feature/2001/10/04/earthsea/print.html > > > > I think it gets lots of things right, except I disagree that Tenar was > > one-dimensional in Tehanu. > > > > Kim I agree with you, Kim. As a woman who had recently decided to stay at home with my new child, I found Le Guin's depiction of Tenar sad and moving, but without bitterness. It has continued to be sustaining to me. I also disagree with the article's claim that writers shouldn't go back and change their created worlds in fundamental ways. I think that it's certainly unusual for them to do so, but if it's done right there are echoes of a courageous realism in it. After all, many of us find our own understanding of the world changed in fundamental ways, particularly when we go through life changes or disasters. I think what Le Guin manages to do so well is the delicate task of introducing profound change without denying the beauty of her former understanding of Earthsea. I still read the earlier trilogy with the same deep satisfaction after reading the new stories. In fact, the early stories seem even richer to me now. But, all in all, I liked this article much better than my own review of *The Other Wind* --yes, I wrote one, too, for the Green Man Review. Grey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 03 04:49:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f94Lh7l10672 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 14:43:07 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-337-1002231655-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.223] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Oct 2001 21:42:41 -0000 X-Sender: Kimberly.McCollum-Clark@millersville.edu X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 4 Oct 2001 21:40:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 48499 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2001 21:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 4 Oct 2001 21:40:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail1.millersville.edu) (166.66.56.75) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 Oct 2001 21:42:39 -0000 Received: by mail1.millersville.edu with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <4HRA6YK9>; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:42:38 -0400 Message-ID: To: "'the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com'" X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-eGroups-From: Kimberly McCollum-Clark From: Kimberly McCollum-Clark MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:42:37 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] Re: UKL article in Salon today Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 32f2443ad73dee5e6e4ff77eaa5b3069 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 39 Grey, interesting that you mention saying home with your child--I re-read Tehanu when I was home with my child and was moved unbearably by Tenar's contemplation of the role of women in great events. She gave up Arha for housewifery and yet as Goha, she made/ remade/ continues to make the world around her every day. It is a subtle but incredible message--and Tehanu/Therru is the result of this different kind of Making (and then the rapprochement with the dragons is an even later result.) I didn't get that entire aspect of the book as a single woman, or even as married woman. But as a mother it was screaming at me. Do you have a URL on your review? or is it in the "other" print? Cheers Kim > ---------- > From: Grey Walker > Reply To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2001 5:31 PM > To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: UKL article in Salon today > > Robins - one of wrote: > > > Thanks, Kimberley, brilliant! (if frustrating to the UK where her 2 > newest > > books not yet avialable) And I actually enjoyed the link article at the > end > > http://www.salon.com/people/bc/2001/01/23/le_guin/index2.html even more > > > > Hannah > > > > > Friends, I just read what I think is a terrific article on UKL and the > new > > > Earthsea offerings on Salon.com. URL to follow > > > > > > > > > http://salon.com/books/feature/2001/10/04/earthsea/print.html > > > > > > I think it gets lots of things right, except I disagree that Tenar was > > > one-dimensional in Tehanu. > > > > > > Kim > > I agree with you, Kim. As a woman who had recently decided to stay at > home with > my new child, I found Le Guin's depiction of Tenar sad and moving, but > without > bitterness. It has continued to be sustaining to me. > > I also disagree with the article's claim that writers shouldn't go back > and > change their created worlds in fundamental ways. I think that it's > certainly > unusual for them to do so, but if it's done right there are echoes of a > courageous realism in it. After all, many of us find our own > understanding of > the world changed in fundamental ways, particularly when we go through > life > changes or disasters. I think what Le Guin manages to do so well is the > delicate task of introducing profound change without denying the beauty of > her > former understanding of Earthsea. I still read the earlier trilogy with > the > same deep satisfaction after reading the new stories. In fact, the early > stories seem even richer to me now. > > But, all in all, I liked this article much better than my own review of > *The > Other Wind* --yes, I wrote one, too, for the Green Man Review. > > Grey > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 03 04:49:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n33.groups.yahoo.com (n33.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.83]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f94Mkwl14163 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 15:46:59 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-339-1002235591-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by n33.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Oct 2001 22:46:32 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 4 Oct 2001 22:46:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 59681 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2001 22:46:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Oct 2001 22:46:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp005pub.verizon.net) (206.46.170.184) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Oct 2001 22:46:30 -0000 Received: from zion.bellatlantic.net (pool-64-222-81-23.burl.east.verizon.net [64.222.81.23]) by smtp005pub.verizon.net with ESMTP for ; id f94MkTW14206 Thu, 4 Oct 2001 17:46:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011004183637.009eae30@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> X-Sender: jdawley@mailbox.bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 18:46:55 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: I've finally read *Tales from Earthsea* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: f4ec98575ed5dbd60024e105855a4094 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 75 Thank you, Dorothea, for your thoughtful message. I've done a little pruning in my reply... >BEWARE -- Spoilers Ahead! (for *The Other Wind* as well as *TfE* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>"Darkrose and Diamond" was a fairly bloodless version of the ambition >>vs. love story that Le Guin has written about before, in "Another >>Story" and *Tehanu*. > >Where are you seeing this with _Tehanu_? I'm curious. The >case of Ged seems more that of the individual who has achieved every >imaginable ambition and has to figure out what to do next. (How *do* >you retire a hero?) Tenar did not so much choose love over ambition >as lack ambition in the first place. Tehanu herself has her ambitions >fulfilled in _The Other Wind_. What I was thinking of was what I recall to be Ged's somewhat frustrated and bitter retreat to the mountains with the goats because he didn't feel that people could help him. I guess I saw it as the flip side of ambition, an extravagant sense of worthlessness, which eventually eases enough for him to admit his feelings for Tenar and settle down with her and Tehanu. But I could be remembering wrongly. >>I am coming to realize that Le Guin's "tell, don't show" >>approach to most romances frustrates me quite a bit. There was so >>little development of the main characters' relationship in the story >>that it felt empty to me. > >Wish I didn't agree with you, but I do. I thought the >Lebannen-Seserakh relationship in _The Other Wind_ was terribly >mishandled in precisely the same way. (I thought Seserakh got >shortchanged all around, as I've said before. Potentially fascinating >character, largely wasted. No spoilers in this para; anyone who can't >figure out what's going to happen as soon as Seserakh is introduced >can't really be reading.) Hm. I haven't read far enough to have an opinion yet, but I will weigh in soon. (I'm more than halfway through.) >Curiously, LeGuin does marvelously well with mature love: >Tenar and Ged, Medra and Elehal, Emer and Irioth. It's young love >that she has difficulty with. I guess that's an occupational hazard >of marrying happily once. :) Well, I agree with you about Emer and Irioth, but the Medra/Elehal relationship left me unaffected. (My memories of *Tehanu* are too iffy to speak to this question.) We learn that they are attracted to one another on page 64 and by the bottom of page 65 "they [have come] through shame and fear into passion." I understand that this story isn't *about* their romance, and that could explain the poetic shorthand, but I just can't shake a feeling of being cheated. It seems like Le Guin expects us to identify with and care about her lovers, but she too often leaves out the details that any good romance depends on. Instead, we get the poetic euphemisms. I don't think it's a matter of young vs. old romance. One of my favorite Le Guin books is *Very Far Away from Anywhere Else*, which is about the loving relationship of two high school kids. It never fails to bring me to tears in its poignancy. Maybe Le Guin herself set the bar too high and I am doomed to be often disappointed? >My favorite part of the story is the ending, though. A >sweeter and more original expression of love I would be hard-pressed >to find. It's quite perfect. I liked it very much too. :-) >There are many excellent characters in _Tales_, major and >minor. I think my best-loved, though, is poor Azver the Patterner, >who dares to care for a dragon. Heartbreakingly quixotic -- yet who >else would dare, save one already brave enough to leave his own >culture behind and excel in an entirely new and not unhostile one? I >would like to see more of Azver; I hope LeGuin likes him half as much >as I do. Do you think Azver is in love with Irian? I didn't get that impression. Maybe this is revealed late in *The Other Wind*? >My husband disagrees with me, but I think "Dragonfly" hints >pretty strongly that Irian is sexually abused (as well as neglected, >obviously) by her father. To me, that explains why Ivory's love-charm >has the effect it does on her -- it's not her dragon nature, it's her >defenses against forced sex asserting themselves. (And serve Ivory >right. Her reaction to Thorion is not dissimilar.) Tehanu, of course, >is simply brutalized. I also thought the signs pointed toward sexual molestation. "She hated the curses and pledges and tears, and the slobbered caresses that followed them." (p. 198) "She felt his prying, tremulous hands on her." (p. 242) And after Ivory tries his love charm on Irian she whallops him and goes off to shout at her father and break his cup. Pretty subtle, but clear to me. And what's particularly interesting about this is that her reactions seem somewhat unconscious. Ivory casts the charm, but instead of feeling violated by and angry at him, she terrorizes her now decrepit dad. I believed her when she said she wasn't angry at Ivory, but maybe after all she was lying so she could continue to use him to get her to Roke? Any thoughts on this? >So how does dragon-nature express itself in humans, then? I >came to the conclusion that it is resilience, the capacity to >transcend suffering and injustice and evil, to recognize them for >what they are without giving in to them. I can well believe that such >a quality is what the dragons respond to in the dragonlords. > >Everyone in Earthsea should have some dragon-nature; the >question is how much, and how and when it expresses itself. Tenar >comes to her transcendence too late to become a dragon, I think; >Tehanu and Irian do, because they triumph much sooner, before they >are entirely set in their ways as humans. Likewise, dragons should >have some human-nature, though how *that* expresses itself I don't >know. I am curious as well. I have already gotten to the point in *The Other Wind* when Irian repeats Kalessin's theory of dragons and humans. He mentions that there is at least one dragon that has taken to living as a human, but he doesn't say who it is. >I accept that I am probably wrong about this, but I *still* >like my conclusion better than _The Other Wind_'s, which I found >entirely retconny and ad-hoc and overliteral. I also like it, of >course, because it implies a certain amount of hope for Azver in his >love for Irian... This looks like fertile ground for discussion, but I must wait for the end of the tale. Anyone else care to chime in? There's no reason to wait as long as you provide spoiler space! >(next time: language in Earthsea, and why it makes no bloody sense) I look forward to your disquisition! ----- Janice E. Dawley.....Burlington, VT http://homepages.together.net/~jdawley/ Listening to: Boiled in Lead -- Alloy "...the public and the private worlds are inseparably connected; the tyrannies and servilities of the one are the tyrannies and servilities of the other." Virginia Woolf, Three Guineas ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 03 04:49:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n12.groups.yahoo.com (n12.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.62]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f94MdDl13735 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 15:39:14 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-338-1002234986-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.221] by n12.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Oct 2001 22:38:47 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 4 Oct 2001 22:36:25 -0000 Received: (qmail 90871 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2001 22:36:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 4 Oct 2001 22:36:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta1 with SMTP; 4 Oct 2001 22:38:36 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f94MbjW15041 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2001 16:37:47 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BBCF3D3.86F0EEF3@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 16:42:12 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: UKL article in Salon today Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 22eb29a38619fab8ddaa63f82e16d29b Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 72 Kimberly McCollum-Clark wrote: > Grey, interesting that you mention saying home with your child--I re-read > Tehanu when I was home with my child and was moved unbearably by Tenar's > contemplation of the role of women in great events. She gave up Arha for > housewifery and yet as Goha, she made/ remade/ continues to make the world > around her every day. It is a subtle but incredible message--and > Tehanu/Therru is the result of this different kind of Making (and then the > rapprochement with the dragons is an even later result.) I didn't get that > entire aspect of the book as a single woman, or even as married woman. But > as a mother it was screaming at me. For me, I think it was the fact that there was someone I was giving up my life for, who was helpless without me. I mean, we often "live for" those we love, but it is only as small children that they are utterly dependent on us to do it. > Do you have a URL on your review? or is it in the "other" print? http://www.greenmanreview.com/theotherwind.html It was the most difficult review I've written. Not that I'm ever flippant or nonchalant about my reviews, but it was difficult to find the distance to write critically about a writer I admire so highly. Grey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Oct 04 04:14:03 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f95Fool05577 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 08:50:50 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-340-1002297023-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Oct 2001 15:50:23 -0000 X-Sender: iwr77@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 5 Oct 2001 15:50:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 5628 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2001 15:50:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Oct 2001 15:50:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.198) by mta1 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2001 15:50:22 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 08:50:21 -0700 Received: from 146.186.159.216 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 05 Oct 2001 15:50:21 GMT X-Originating-IP: [146.186.159.216] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Oct 2001 15:50:21.0923 (UTC) FILETIME=[70C17330:01C14DB5] From: "Ian W. Riddell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 11:50:21 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: UKL article in Salon today Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6e4b8d380b80f1ea93edc74743ad8ed7 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 77 >http://www.greenmanreview.com/theotherwind.html > >It was the most difficult review I've written. Not that I'm ever flippant >or >nonchalant about my reviews, but it was difficult to find the distance to >write >critically about a writer I admire so highly. > >Grey > Grey, Very well written. I wonder what made you go "Ha!"? widdy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Oct 04 04:16:08 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f95IjKl13437 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 11:45:20 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-341-1002307374-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.223] by n30.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Oct 2001 18:44:47 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 5 Oct 2001 18:42:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 84789 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2001 18:42:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 5 Oct 2001 18:42:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2001 18:44:45 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f95IiiB03813 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 12:44:44 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BBE0E9F.A01CE010@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 12:48:48 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Spoiler--The Other Wind Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ab31736fbfe9a41d25be45afb6d8dcaf Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 148 "Ian W. Riddell" wrote: > Grey, > > Very well written. Thank you. > I wonder what made you go "Ha!"? It was when the dragon first comes from the burning forest to speak to Tehanu. I felt fiercely exultant, just as I did when Kalessin came to rescue Ged and Tenar, and just as I did when Gandalf looks up at the last battle in The Lord of the Rings and shouts, "The eagles are coming!" Grey > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT [Image] > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Oct 04 04:18:11 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n11.groups.yahoo.com (n11.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.61]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f95LoGl22256 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 14:50:16 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-342-1002318438-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by n11.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Oct 2001 21:49:48 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 5 Oct 2001 21:47:17 -0000 Received: (qmail 85238 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2001 21:47:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Oct 2001 21:47:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2001 21:47:16 -0000 Received: from [212.126.134.234] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15pcoL-00099A-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 05 Oct 2001 22:47:14 +0100 Message-ID: <003101c14de7$1e4f9280$ea867ed4@dan> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 22:45:56 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: UKL article in Salon today Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3b1ea3047bd812c4c6cf2ed6a99bd0de Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 215 Grey, Kim, Personally, I decided not to stay home with my children when that was still a pretty unusual decision to make. This in no way diminished my appreciation of Tehanu which remains one of the most moving books I've ever read. I honour you for your decisions - please honour me for mine. so far, my daughters seem to have turned out pretty well - but that doesn't mean I feel wholly convinced of the validity of the decision but - hey! we have to go on living as though our decisions are all right - different things would have gone wrong in the other trouser legs of time Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Kimberly McCollum-Clark To: Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 10:42 PM Subject: RE: [the-ekumen] Re: UKL article in Salon today > Grey, interesting that you mention saying home with your child--I re-read > Tehanu when I was home with my child and was moved unbearably by Tenar's > contemplation of the role of women in great events. She gave up Arha for > housewifery and yet as Goha, she made/ remade/ continues to make the world > around her every day. It is a subtle but incredible message--and > Tehanu/Therru is the result of this different kind of Making (and then the > rapprochement with the dragons is an even later result.) I didn't get that > entire aspect of the book as a single woman, or even as married woman. But > as a mother it was screaming at me. > > Do you have a URL on your review? or is it in the "other" print? > > Cheers > > Kim > > > ---------- > > From: Grey Walker > > Reply To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2001 5:31 PM > > To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: UKL article in Salon today > > > > Robins - one of wrote: > > > > > Thanks, Kimberley, brilliant! (if frustrating to the UK where her 2 > > newest > > > books not yet avialable) And I actually enjoyed the link article at the > > end > > > http://www.salon.com/people/bc/2001/01/23/le_guin/index2.html even more > > > > > > Hannah > > > > > > > Friends, I just read what I think is a terrific article on UKL and the > > new > > > > Earthsea offerings on Salon.com. URL to follow > > > > > > > > > > > > http://salon.com/books/feature/2001/10/04/earthsea/print.html > > > > > > > > I think it gets lots of things right, except I disagree that Tenar was > > > > one-dimensional in Tehanu. > > > > > > > > Kim > > > > I agree with you, Kim. As a woman who had recently decided to stay at > > home with > > my new child, I found Le Guin's depiction of Tenar sad and moving, but > > without > > bitterness. It has continued to be sustaining to me. > > > > I also disagree with the article's claim that writers shouldn't go back > > and > > change their created worlds in fundamental ways. I think that it's > > certainly > > unusual for them to do so, but if it's done right there are echoes of a > > courageous realism in it. After all, many of us find our own > > understanding of > > the world changed in fundamental ways, particularly when we go through > > life > > changes or disasters. I think what Le Guin manages to do so well is the > > delicate task of introducing profound change without denying the beauty of > > her > > former understanding of Earthsea. I still read the earlier trilogy with > > the > > same deep satisfaction after reading the new stories. In fact, the early > > stories seem even richer to me now. > > > > But, all in all, I liked this article much better than my own review of > > *The > > Other Wind* --yes, I wrote one, too, for the Green Man Review. > > > > Grey > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Thu Oct 04 04:18:12 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n12.groups.yahoo.com (n12.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.62]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f95MNcl23768 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 15:23:38 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-343-1002320590-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by n12.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Oct 2001 22:23:10 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 5 Oct 2001 22:23:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 30356 invoked from network); 5 Oct 2001 22:23:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 Oct 2001 22:23:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta3 with SMTP; 5 Oct 2001 22:23:09 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.10.1/8.10.1) via ESMTP id f95MMtB06002 for ; Fri, 5 Oct 2001 16:22:58 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BBE41B7.1E53FE88@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <003101c14de7$1e4f9280$ea867ed4@dan> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:26:48 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: staying at home or not Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 867e18d8b96256553a97f9ed249d8674 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 229 Robins - one of wrote: > Grey, Kim, > Personally, I decided not to stay home with my children when that was still > a pretty unusual decision to make. This in no way diminished my > appreciation of Tehanu which remains one of the most moving books I've ever > read. I honour you for your decisions - please honour me for mine. Oh, Hannah, I'm sorry. When I said what I did, I was in no way trying to suggest that staying at home with kids is the only right decision. I only meant that I read Tehanu right after I made the decision (and it was and continues to be a difficult one), and that Tehanu spoke to me in a certain way for that reason. Actually, I've continued to find Le Guin's alternative cultures--such as O, described in "Another Story"-- sustaining in that they make room for parents, other family members, and all sorts of other members of the community to participate in the upbringing of children while still having time for other meaningful work. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Oct 05 00:21:30 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f968TPl07911 for ; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 01:29:25 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-344-1002356794-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.221] by n30.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Oct 2001 08:28:57 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 6 Oct 2001 08:26:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 83691 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2001 08:26:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 6 Oct 2001 08:26:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2001 08:28:56 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.6] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15pmpK-000JsR-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 06 Oct 2001 09:28:55 +0100 Message-ID: <001801c14e40$c13c1be0$06847ed4@dan> To: References: <003101c14de7$1e4f9280$ea867ed4@dan> <3BBE41B7.1E53FE88@pcisys.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 09:27:35 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: staying at home or not Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 73c5c9892c838e7ff8f7a87ceb0a3822 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 32 Grey Thanks - but nothing to apologise for! I agree, the whole makeup and attitude of how we run our cultures and raise our children makes these decisions difficult to make and feel unfair whichever route you take. Its hard for both fathers and mothers to balance their lives right. UKL is certainly one of the people who thinks imaginatively about this. What do you think of the system in Anarres in The Disposessed, with nurseries and de-emphasis on partnerships and all? Takver and Shevek seemed to have a good thing going in their voluntary partnership - with space for their lives, their friends, their 'tenth day duties' and their children, in spite of all the problems they had to manage. [However I always doubted the description of Shevek as a baby saying 'mine sun!' in the nursery. Would a baby have learnt the word 'mine' when it was not an accepted part of his language? what does anyone else think?] Have you read any of Zoe Fairbairn's books? - if she's published outside the UK - her books are all about the UK, feminism and mainly set in the 80s. I though her ideas she developed in 'Closing' offered a good compromise approach to the raising of children - though not the route I took. Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Grey Walker To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 12:26 AM Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: staying at home or not > Robins - one of wrote: > > > Grey, Kim, > > Personally, I decided not to stay home with my children when that was still > > a pretty unusual decision to make. This in no way diminished my > > appreciation of Tehanu which remains one of the most moving books I've ever > > read. I honour you for your decisions - please honour me for mine. > > Oh, Hannah, I'm sorry. When I said what I did, I was in no way trying to > suggest that staying at home with kids is the only right decision. I only meant > that I read Tehanu right after I made the decision (and it was and continues to > be a difficult one), and that Tehanu spoke to me in a certain way for that > reason. > > Actually, I've continued to find Le Guin's alternative cultures--such as O, > described in "Another Story"-- sustaining in that they make room for parents, > other family members, and all sorts of other members of the community to > participate in the upbringing of children while still having time for other > meaningful work. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Oct 05 00:21:45 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n17.groups.yahoo.com (n17.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.67]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f96DUWl11055 for ; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 06:30:32 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-345-1002375003-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.54] by n17.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Oct 2001 13:30:03 -0000 X-Sender: jhyde@christschool.org X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 6 Oct 2001 13:30:03 -0000 Received: (qmail 49112 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2001 13:30:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 6 Oct 2001 13:30:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.christschool.org) (208.131.129.57) by mta2 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2001 13:30:02 -0000 Received: from christschool.org (www.christschool.org [208.131.129.58]) by mail.christschool.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f96DX0206753 for ; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 09:33:00 -0400 Message-ID: <3BBF0980.D3B5F6C4@christschool.org> Organization: Christ School St. Dunstan's Library X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <003101c14de7$1e4f9280$ea867ed4@dan> <3BBE41B7.1E53FE88@pcisys.net> From: Jane Hyde MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 09:39:12 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: staying at home or not Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 59da7e41f3f70251758c009e73773c1d Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 44 Grey Walker wrote: > > > Actually, I've continued to find Le Guin's alternative cultures--such > as O, > described in "Another Story"-- sustaining in that they make room for > parents, > other family members, and all sorts of other members of the community > to > participate in the upbringing of children while still having time for > other > meaningful work. > Yes! That's one of the great things about her writings, one to shout about -- and it reminds me of the only thing I remember from my early 70s reading of Germaine Greer, her vision of a society in which all adults help care for the children in very direct ways, like working in day care centers or whatever. She made a concession for those who don't actuarially relish direct contact, that they could contribute financially. But everyone, no matter what occupation, helps. And Grey, thank you for the link to The Green Man, which had escaped my gaze before. Jane -- Jane Hyde, Librarian St. Dunstan Library Christ School Arden, NC 28704 jhyde@christschool.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Fri Oct 05 00:21:45 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n25.groups.yahoo.com (n25.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.75]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f96DVAl11064 for ; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 06:31:11 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-346-1002375042-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.222] by n25.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Oct 2001 13:30:42 -0000 X-Sender: jhyde@christschool.org X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 6 Oct 2001 13:30:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 1736 invoked from network); 6 Oct 2001 13:30:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 6 Oct 2001 13:30:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.christschool.org) (208.131.129.57) by mta1 with SMTP; 6 Oct 2001 13:30:40 -0000 Received: from christschool.org (www.christschool.org [208.131.129.58]) by mail.christschool.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f96DXb206761 for ; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 09:33:38 -0400 Message-ID: <3BBF09A5.39981208@christschool.org> Organization: Christ School St. Dunstan's Library X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <003101c14de7$1e4f9280$ea867ed4@dan> <3BBE41B7.1E53FE88@pcisys.net> From: Jane Hyde MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 09:39:49 -0400 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: staying at home or not Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: e7c415d8df8789c17f20e73bbb67e057 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 Oops -- spell check trips you up sometimes. -- Jane Hyde, Librarian St. Dunstan Library Christ School Arden, NC 28704 jhyde@christschool.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Oct 06 23:08:38 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n29.groups.yahoo.com (n29.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.79]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f975Etl25988 for ; Sat, 6 Oct 2001 22:14:56 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-347-1002431666-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by n29.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Oct 2001 05:14:27 -0000 X-Sender: Judyldubois@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 7 Oct 2001 05:14:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 32463 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2001 05:14:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 7 Oct 2001 05:14:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m04.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.7) by mta1 with SMTP; 7 Oct 2001 05:14:25 -0000 Received: from Judyldubois@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.7.) id r.138.2ae5177 (16931) for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 01:14:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <138.2ae5177.28f13eae@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 115 From: judyldubois@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 01:14:22 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: staying at home Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 62ffcdf4cd4d5dbdbb5975099f5b8d00 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 Somewhere Le Guin explained her own decision to stay at home and raise children and write. She said that keeping house and raising children is a full time job and writing books is a full time job and one person can't do two full time jobs, it's impossible. But she said two people can do three full time jobs. So I guess in a way we owe her wonderful books to her husband's willingness to pitch in. About children being raised by the entire community, this works very well in Africa, where a child calls all the adults in the village mother and father. One of the first things that struck me was that if you saw a baby in someone's arms, it was as likely to be a man's as a woman's. African men adore children and carry them around, apparently for the pleasure. And a child who misbehaves is scolded by anyone who sees. That doesn't mean that the ties with the biological parents are less, but the entire community cares about the child and participates in its upbringing. Of course, here I'm talking about life in the village. In the cities and slums, where neighbors don't necessarily speak the same language, children have a tendancy to run wild. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Oct 06 23:08:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n33.groups.yahoo.com (n33.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.83]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f97H1jl05356 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 10:01:45 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-348-1002474075-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by n33.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Oct 2001 17:01:15 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 7 Oct 2001 17:01:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 33364 invoked from network); 7 Oct 2001 17:01:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 7 Oct 2001 17:01:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 7 Oct 2001 17:01:14 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.196] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15qHId-0009dP-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 07 Oct 2001 18:01:12 +0100 Message-ID: <003001c14f51$7ca1ac40$c4887ed4@dan> To: References: <138.2ae5177.28f13eae@aol.com> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 17:59:53 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: staying at home Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 94073f5f578b948f741e511e042cd61a Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 68 I also owe having a career (not of the value or creatvitiy of LeGuin's!) and raising my daughters to my husband's willingness to pitch in - and I owe the lovely people who have accepted money from me to help both with the kids and other domestic matters. But it's still been/continues to be hard. If only we could organise our lives to be a little less pressured at work! I guess the creative people get their own pressures - and I quote (to make sure I stay on topic!) The Dispossessed - can't find it but Takver I think remembers Odo's husband saying 'can't you serve the truth a little at a time?' Your statements about Africa sound enticing. I presume you're not speaking for the whole continent! where have you been? Any Africans in the group like to comment - have we got any? Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 6:14 AM Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: staying at home > Somewhere Le Guin explained her own decision to stay at home and raise > children and write. She said that keeping house and raising children is a > full time job and writing books is a full time job and one person can't do > two full time jobs, it's impossible. But she said two people can do three > full time jobs. So I guess in a way we owe her wonderful books to her > husband's willingness to pitch in. > > About children being raised by the entire community, this works very well in > Africa, where a child calls all the adults in the village mother and father. > One of the first things that struck me was that if you saw a baby in > someone's arms, it was as likely to be a man's as a woman's. African men > adore children and carry them around, apparently for the pleasure. And a > child who misbehaves is scolded by anyone who sees. That doesn't mean that > the ties with the biological parents are less, but the entire community cares > about the child and participates in its upbringing. Of course, here I'm > talking about life in the village. In the cities and slums, where neighbors > don't necessarily speak the same language, children have a tendancy to run > wild. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Oct 06 23:10:31 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f984C7l17009 for ; Sun, 7 Oct 2001 21:12:07 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-349-1002514168-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.223] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Oct 2001 04:11:37 -0000 X-Sender: Judyldubois@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 8 Oct 2001 04:09:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 76843 invoked from network); 8 Oct 2001 04:09:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 8 Oct 2001 04:09:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m10.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.165) by mta1 with SMTP; 8 Oct 2001 04:11:36 -0000 Received: from Judyldubois@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.7.) id r.112.5c4d1a8 (25714) for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 00:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <112.5c4d1a8.28f28175@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 115 From: judyldubois@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 00:11:33 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 132 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ef23396cb1ae8339f348dde0e34da316 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 160 I lived in Kribi, Cameroon, a lovely little town on the coast, for seventeen years. And begged, borrowed and yes, stole books to survive. I probably owe what's left of my sanity to Ursula K. Le Guin, among others. Not that it was a difficult life, but rather perhaps too easy. You could let your mind go to sleep and never wake up. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 09 08:01:08 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n20.groups.yahoo.com (n20.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.70]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f995UEl00679 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 22:30:14 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-350-1002605382-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by n20.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2001 05:29:42 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 9 Oct 2001 05:29:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 25449 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2001 05:29:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 9 Oct 2001 05:29:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2001 05:29:41 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) via ESMTP id f995TeUu011730 for ; Mon, 8 Oct 2001 23:29:40 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BC29A88.9A42CFF8@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <999965536.997.46437.j7@yahoogroups.com> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 23:34:49 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: New poll for the-ekumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 45d3180b4b5c42b95b0211aa61983110 Status: U the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com wrote: > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the > the-ekumen group: > > Which are your favourite stories > in The Winds Twelve Quarters? Just wanted to thank whoever thought up this poll, because it gave me the impetus to read The Wind's Twelve Quarters again. I haven't read some of those stories in years, and it was wonderful! Grey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 09 14:56:07 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n5.groups.yahoo.com (n5.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.55]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f99JJml23618 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:19:48 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-351-1002654990-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.224] by n5.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2001 19:19:15 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 9 Oct 2001 19:16:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 9199 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2001 19:16:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.224 with QMQP; 9 Oct 2001 19:16:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2001 19:19:11 -0000 Received: from [212.126.136.48] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15r2P9-0001yp-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 09 Oct 2001 20:19:04 +0100 Message-ID: <002f01c150f7$131a00e0$30887ed4@dan> To: References: <999965536.997.46437.j7@yahoogroups.com> <3BC29A88.9A42CFF8@pcisys.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 20:17:44 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: New poll for the-ekumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: df2f567f8d212797a4eed4de8096cda5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 Grey You're welcome, it was me. It was joining this group that sent me back to reread the stories. If it's of any interest, I put together the attached Excel - if that works on this group - to help remind me next time which story was which and to rate my enjoyment of the stories this year Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Grey Walker To: Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 7:34 AM Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: New poll for the-ekumen > the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the > > the-ekumen group: > > > > Which are your favourite stories > > in The Winds Twelve Quarters? > > Just wanted to thank whoever thought up this poll, because it gave me > the impetus to read The Wind's Twelve Quarters again. I haven't read > some of those stories in years, and it was wonderful! > > Grey > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 09 14:56:07 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n23.groups.yahoo.com (n23.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.73]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f99K40l26349 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:04:00 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-352-1002657808-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by n23.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2001 20:03:28 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 9 Oct 2001 20:03:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 59943 invoked from network); 9 Oct 2001 20:03:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 9 Oct 2001 20:03:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-2.enteract.com) (207.229.143.4) by mta1 with SMTP; 9 Oct 2001 20:03:26 -0000 Received: from [207.229.148.136] (207-229-148-198.d.enteract.com [207.229.148.198]) by smtp-2.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510BF6BB8 for ; Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:02:07 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <002f01c150f7$131a00e0$30887ed4@dan> References: <999965536.997.46437.j7@yahoogroups.com> <3BC29A88.9A42CFF8@pcisys.net> <002f01c150f7$131a00e0$30887ed4@dan> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:01:57 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: New poll for the-ekumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: cd3516001cff6afa2702d235e7cf1f44 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 43 >If it's of any interest, I put together the attached >Excel - if that works on this group - Hannah (and anyone else with a file to share), FYI attached files can't be sent out over the-ekumen--they get automatically removed--but you *can* post them in our "Files" area, accessible through the Yahoo Group home page for the-ekumen. Just click on the link that says "Files" in the left navigation area and it should be self-explanatory. Then just post a message telling the group what you've made available. thanks, Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 10 16:20:05 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n4.groups.yahoo.com (n4.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.54]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9AHTQl07824 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:29:26 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-353-1002734739-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.220] by n4.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2001 17:28:50 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 10 Oct 2001 17:25:39 -0000 Received: (qmail 73042 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2001 17:25:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 10 Oct 2001 17:25:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta3 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2001 17:28:51 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) via ESMTP id f9AHSkJP002600 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:28:47 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BC49492.D8C42FD6@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <4.1.20011002131641.00a4d3f0@dbratman.pobox.stanford.edu> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:33:54 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Compass Rose Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: c0dcb5e75b2f760980e74fd78c581fa6 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 99 "David S. Bratman" wrote: > "Author of the Acacia Seeds" is one of my favorites, especially the > breezy > informality of the invitation to the Penguin expedition. It's almost > like > the Monty Python routine studying the comparative intelligence of > penguins > and BBC programme planners. I really like this one, too. When I first read it, I was a teenager, and it was one of those stories that "blow the top off your head." I mean, I'd always had an affinity for nature--especially trees--and tended to anthropomorphise it, but the thought that ants, penguins, and sunflowers might not think like us at all, *that* was what was so amazing. I also have a special place in my heart for "Mazes." Being said teenager, and (obviously) a nerd, I strongly related to this story. The idea that others might be completely misinterpreting what I was trying to communicate to them was helpful to me. It made me feel more misunderstood, and less willfully mistreated. I have carried the idea with me ever since, and it continues to be helpful. Actually, I used to use "Mazes" as a test for potential friends/romantic liasons. I would give "Mazes" to the test subject to read. If he or she "got it," it was likely that I'd be able to deeply relate to him or her. If he or she didn't "get it"--or even worse, thought it was wierd or boring--I could be almost certain that we would have serious disagreements and communication problems further down the road. I only disregarded the test once, and I was indeed quite sorry later on. *grin* I've given up administering the test in recent years. I suppose I got sophisticated and thought it was too simplistic. Grey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/Gi0tnD/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 10 16:20:05 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n23.groups.yahoo.com (n23.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.73]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9AHbGl08227 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:37:16 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-354-1002735210-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.220] by n23.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2001 17:36:43 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 10 Oct 2001 17:33:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 87153 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2001 17:33:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 10 Oct 2001 17:33:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2001 17:36:37 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) via ESMTP id f9AHaTJP015088 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:36:29 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BC4965E.77BA284@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <9pdb76+sdp1@eGroups.com> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:41:34 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: I've finally read *Tales from Earthsea* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 230f01ea5a8e4bec2b2b3ee8837d739b Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 103 I'm just now replying to all these "replies." I had to think about it a bit. Dorothea Salo wrote: > Happy to talk about it. > > >Here's how it seemed to me... > > > >BEWARE -- Spoilers Ahead! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >I must admit that I found the first couple of stories slow going. The > > >first half of "The Finder" held my attention nicely (quicksilver > >mining, very creepy Gelluk, intriguing Anieb), but thereafter the > >tale seemed to ramble toward its somewhat dull ending. > > I think you're right that the story falls into two rather > sharply differing parts. I don't think I minded as much as you did, > though; after the relentless destruction -- of lives, of skill, of > hope, of society -- all through the first part, I was happy to read > about the building-up of Roke in the second. A very LeGuinnish > division, I thought: destroy, then rebuild. Rebuilding is always a > bit slower and more deliberate than destruction. I think I'm with you on this one, Dorothea. Actually, I'm a very fast reader, and tend to read almost everything in huge gulps. Le Guin is one of a handful of writers who can force me to slow down without making me impatient. I value her "slower" stories for that. Also I agree that "rebuilding from destruction" is a variation of hope that Le Guin does especially well. Grey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 10 16:20:05 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n31.groups.yahoo.com (n31.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.81]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9AHqIl09139 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:52:18 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-355-1002736305-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.222] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2001 17:51:45 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 10 Oct 2001 17:51:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 10439 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2001 17:51:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 10 Oct 2001 17:51:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2001 17:51:44 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) via ESMTP id f9AHpgJP006672 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:51:43 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BC499EE.1921B486@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011004183637.009eae30@mailbox.bellatlantic.net> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:56:46 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: I've finally read *Tales from Earthsea* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a67fd9251bc56a6a40d5dd901c11f485 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 107 > >BEWARE -- Spoilers Ahead! (for *The Other Wind* as well as *TfE* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Curiously, LeGuin does marvelously well with mature love: > >Tenar and Ged, Medra and Elehal, Emer and Irioth. It's young love > >that she has difficulty with. I guess that's an occupational hazard > >of marrying happily once. :) I agree with this, and it's so refreshing to read an author who doesn't render everyone sexless and dispassionate when they hit fifty--or whatever age is deemed "ancient" at the time. I saw it in Four Ways to Forgiveness, too, and loved it there. But I think I appreciate UKL's passionate friendships even more. I remember how sustaining I found Ged's relationship with Estarriol in A Wizard of Earthsea, and Genly's friendship with Estraven in The Left Hand of Darkness. I even see it obliquely among the Masters of Roke. Le Guin is so good at giving us a sense of the length and closeness of their working relationships with each other, and the alliances between them, and the fondness they have for each other. > I don't think it's a matter of young vs. old romance. One of my > favorite Le > Guin books is *Very Far Away from Anywhere Else*, which is about the > loving > relationship of two high school kids. It never fails to bring me to > tears > in its poignancy. Maybe Le Guin herself set the bar too high and I am > doomed to be often disappointed? I was also deeply moved by VFAfAE, but I still think that, in the main, Le Guin's strength lies in depicting older love. Or maybe it's just that she seems to set it in context better. Her older lovers don't seem to need to be isolated from the world around them to be able to live in consummated love. > >There are many excellent characters in _Tales_, major and > >minor. I think my best-loved, though, is poor Azver the Patterner, > >who dares to care for a dragon. Heartbreakingly quixotic -- yet who > >else would dare, save one already brave enough to leave his own > >culture behind and excel in an entirely new and not unhostile one? I > >would like to see more of Azver; I hope LeGuin likes him half as much > > >as I do. > > Do you think Azver is in love with Irian? I didn't get that > impression. > Maybe this is revealed late in *The Other Wind*? I think Le Guin does it very subtly, although she does indeed go farther in The Other Wind. But maybe in Azver and Irian we see the line between passionate friendship and romantic love blurred? ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 10 16:20:06 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n21.groups.yahoo.com (n21.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.71]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9AI6Fl09986 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:06:15 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-356-1002736963-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.221] by n21.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2001 18:05:41 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 10 Oct 2001 18:02:42 -0000 Received: (qmail 50763 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2001 18:02:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 10 Oct 2001 18:02:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2001 18:05:40 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) via ESMTP id f9AI5XJP023697 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:05:33 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BC49D2B.7656B9C6@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <003101c14de7$1e4f9280$ea867ed4@dan> <3BBE41B7.1E53FE88@pcisys.net> <001801c14e40$c13c1be0$06847ed4@dan> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:10:36 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: staying at home or not Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 833dc78d853e3bdbf4843b3b72ef8583 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 112 Robins - one of wrote: > What do > you think of the system in Anarres in The Disposessed, with nurseries > and > de-emphasis on partnerships and all? Takver and Shevek seemed to have > a > good thing going in their voluntary partnership - with space for their > > lives, their friends, their 'tenth day duties' and their children, in > spite > of all the problems they had to manage. I'm not sure how this would work. It certainly sounds good. But I know that some of the more radical kibbutzim in Israel began with this model, and I know that some of them ended up dropping it. Although the kibbutz system seems to be far less idealistic than it was anyway. I have to admit that I haven't looked into it recently. Maybe someone here is more up to date about it than I am. In any event, I heard it hypothesized that, while extended families/villages raising children seems to work, to institutionalize such a system fails. Primarily, it seems, because blood *does* tend to be thicker than water. Emotional bonds, as between very close friends or partners not related by blood, seem to stand in for blood fairly well, but not a scientifically developed system. Grey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 10 16:20:19 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n24.groups.yahoo.com (n24.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.74]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9AIGUl10620 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:16:30 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-357-1002737757-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2001 18:15:57 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 10 Oct 2001 18:15:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 70208 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2001 18:15:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 10 Oct 2001 18:15:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2001 18:15:54 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) via ESMTP id f9AIFqJP006067 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:15:52 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BC49F97.85757502@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <003101c14de7$1e4f9280$ea867ed4@dan> <3BBE41B7.1E53FE88@pcisys.net> <3BBF0980.D3B5F6C4@christschool.org> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:20:55 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: staying at home or not Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 038aa3e745543c8e0b779bc1c7721651 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 117 Jane Hyde wrote: > Grey Walker wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I've continued to find Le Guin's alternative > cultures--such > > as O, > > described in "Another Story"-- sustaining in that they make room for > > > parents, > > other family members, and all sorts of other members of the > community > > to > > participate in the upbringing of children while still having time > for > > other > > meaningful work. > > > > > Yes! That's one of the great things about her writings, one to > shout > about -- and it reminds me of the only thing I remember from my early > 70s reading of Germaine Greer, her vision of a society in which all > adults help care for the children in very direct ways, like working in > > day care centers or whatever. She made a concession for those who > don't > actuarially relish direct contact, that they could contribute > financially. But everyone, no matter what occupation, helps. Right! Except that difference on O is a subtle one, but one that I mentioned briefly in what I said I had read about kibbutzim who tried it. On O, the social structures are kept small and "tribal," so that people who share in looking after children can be seen to be related to the children in some familial way. But I think that perhaps our social structures have gotten too big anyway. It seems difficult, for me, to feel even civic commitment much beyond the city level, unless it's a conceptual sort of commitment. I'm not saying that I don't feel interest, concern, and compassion regarding things that happen around the world, but not the sort of commitment that makes me want to do the small, "keep things running" work that has to be done every day. Grey ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 10 16:20:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n27.groups.yahoo.com (n27.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9AJu2l17562 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:56:02 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-358-1002743580-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.223] by n27.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2001 19:55:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 19818 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2001 19:53:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 10 Oct 2001 19:53:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n10.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.49) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2001 19:55:28 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: notify@yahoogroups.com Received: from [10.1.10.111] by n10.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2001 19:55:25 -0000 Message-ID: <1002743723.5779.7663.w33@yahoogroups.com> X-eGroups-Notify: From: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: 10 Oct 2001 19:55:23 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] New file uploaded to the-ekumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 60dcc920922afd5a56a3a5a6920e0318 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 165 Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the the-ekumen group. File : /the winds twelve quarters.xls Uploaded by : robins@clara.co.uk Description : the winds 12 quarters remember-rate You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the-ekumen/files/the%20winds%20twelve%20quarters.xls To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, robins@clara.co.uk ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 10 16:20:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9AK5Ul18130 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:05:33 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-359-1002744152-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2001 20:04:53 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 10 Oct 2001 20:02:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 16038 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2001 20:02:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Oct 2001 20:02:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta2 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2001 20:02:29 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.182] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15rPYi-000CPq-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:02:28 +0100 Message-ID: <003601c151c6$4d3cf6e0$b6847ed4@dan> To: References: <999965536.997.46437.j7@yahoogroups.com><3BC29A88.9A42CFF8@pcisys.net> <002f01c150f7$131a00e0$30887ed4@dan> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:01:06 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: New poll for the-ekumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 2f422f04c1e4df4c62ed94054b239ea5 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 171 Excel file now posted as advised - and I ticked the box so you'll probably get told twice! ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Awl To: Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:01 PM Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: New poll for the-ekumen > >If it's of any interest, I put together the attached > >Excel - if that works on this group - > > Hannah (and anyone else with a file to share), > > FYI attached files can't be sent out over the-ekumen--they get > automatically removed--but you *can* post them in our "Files" area, > accessible through the Yahoo Group home page for the-ekumen. Just > click on the link that says "Files" in the left navigation area and > it should be self-explanatory. Then just post a message telling the > group what you've made available. > > thanks, > Dave > -- > _______________________________________________ > The new, improved Ocelot Factory: > http://www.ocelotfactory.com > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 10 16:20:25 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n27.groups.yahoo.com (n27.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9AK4hl18094 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:04:43 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-360-1002744250-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by n27.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2001 20:04:11 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 10 Oct 2001 20:04:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 88345 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2001 20:04:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Oct 2001 20:04:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2001 20:04:10 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.182] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15rPaK-000CSh-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:04:08 +0100 Message-ID: <004101c151c6$88e26f40$b6847ed4@dan> To: References: <4.1.20011002131641.00a4d3f0@dbratman.pobox.stanford.edu> <3BC49492.D8C42FD6@pcisys.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:02:47 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: Compass Rose Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3f072be399aebbca78552ff0bc41bc5f Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 170 LOL - glad to think I'd have passed your test - I think Mazes is excellent too! but if you'd used the Author of the Acacia Seeds I'd have failed Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Grey Walker To: Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 7:33 PM Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Compass Rose > "David S. Bratman" wrote: > > > "Author of the Acacia Seeds" is one of my favorites, especially the > > breezy > > informality of the invitation to the Penguin expedition. It's almost > > like > > the Monty Python routine studying the comparative intelligence of > > penguins > > and BBC programme planners. > > I really like this one, too. When I first read it, I was a teenager, > and it was one of those stories that "blow the top off your head." I > mean, I'd always had an affinity for nature--especially trees--and > tended to anthropomorphise it, but the thought that ants, penguins, and > sunflowers might not think like us at all, *that* was what was so > amazing. > > I also have a special place in my heart for "Mazes." Being said > teenager, and (obviously) a nerd, I strongly related to this story. The > idea that others might be completely misinterpreting what I was trying > to communicate to them was helpful to me. It made me feel more > misunderstood, and less willfully mistreated. I have carried the idea > with me ever since, and it continues to be helpful. > > Actually, I used to use "Mazes" as a test for potential friends/romantic > liasons. I would give "Mazes" to the test subject to read. If he or > she "got it," it was likely that I'd be able to deeply relate to him or > her. If he or she didn't "get it"--or even worse, thought it was wierd > or boring--I could be almost certain that we would have serious > disagreements and communication problems further down the road. I only > disregarded the test once, and I was indeed quite sorry later on. *grin* > > I've given up administering the test in recent years. I suppose I got > sophisticated and thought it was too simplistic. > > Grey > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 10 16:20:58 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n28.groups.yahoo.com (n28.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.78]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9AKLDl19134 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:21:13 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-361-1002745239-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by n28.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2001 20:20:40 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 10 Oct 2001 20:20:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 15078 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2001 20:20:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 10 Oct 2001 20:20:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2001 20:20:37 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) via ESMTP id f9AKKQJP016730 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:20:27 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BC4BCC5.7CE4FD95@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <4.1.20011002131641.00a4d3f0@dbratman.pobox.stanford.edu> <3BC49492.D8C42FD6@pcisys.net> <004101c151c6$88e26f40$b6847ed4@dan> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:25:25 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: Mazes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6aed5031cf178ce66242e9965102dc19 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 173 Robins - one of wrote: > LOL - glad to think I'd have passed your test - I think Mazes is > excellent > too! but if you'd used the Author of the Acacia Seeds I'd have failed *grin* Well, you know, drama works that way, while comedy doesn't. The things people find humorous are all over the map! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 10 16:20:59 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9ALvJl25283 for ; Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:57:19 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-362-1002750832-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.224] by n30.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2001 21:56:47 -0000 X-Sender: jdawley@bellatlantic.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 10 Oct 2001 21:53:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 35438 invoked from network); 10 Oct 2001 21:53:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.224 with QMQP; 10 Oct 2001 21:53:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n2.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.10.41) by mta1 with SMTP; 10 Oct 2001 21:56:45 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: jdawley@bellatlantic.net Received: from [10.1.10.107] by n2.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2001 21:56:41 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9q2g6r+gf8l@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 207.140.66.216 From: "Janice E. Dawley" MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:56:43 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] A Few Thoughts about *The Other Wind* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: d118ffd2ad44c38267fcda3a664c831e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 208 I finished it. It moved me, and I am still thinking about it. It is about death, but very much about life as well. Particularly near the end of the book, there are scenes of an intense vitality and curiosity. Lebannen, burning to know what the women are doing in the cabin, comes in to find them gambling. "We've been betting islands," Irian says. Seserakh, without her veil, faces Lebannen tensely. He leaves, confused. So little said, but I can imagine these four women playing their game together, sparking off one another, laughing. I'm curious too. I'm drawn to that cabin. And the dreams that follow the next night are primordial and strange as dreams really are; I could feel my own subconscious stirred by them. And very near the end, this passage: "It was hard going in the dark, the lantern throwing great shadows of small things across the path. He walked slower than he would have liked to walk, and stumbled sometimes. He saw a light in the widower's house, late as it was. A child wailed, over in the village. *Mother, mother, why are the people crying? Who are the people crying, mother?* There was no sleep there, either. There was not much sleep anywhere in Earthsea tonight, Ged thought. He grinned a little as he thought it; for he had always liked that pause, that fearful pause, the moment before things changed." (p. 235) Wow. The atmosphere and mood Le Guin has crafted are intense. I like this book very much just on those grounds. However, I am left with some questions when I think about what exactly has happened. The land of the dead has been liberated; spirits are no longer caged there; the dragons' realm is restored. But what implication does this have for magic in Earthsea? There has been a connection drawn between the Land of the Dead, True Names, the Language of the Making, and Magic. If one goes it would seem the others would be affected, but it is by no means clear how. And what about the dragons? Dorothea, you said that you thought the explanation of how people can turn into dragons was "retconny and ad- hoc and overliteral". I'd like to know why you thought so, because I still can't figure out how they DO turn into dragons! Why Irian and Tehanu and no one else? And why are they daughters of Kalessin, and not some other dragon? And why must dragons and humans part forever now? Color me confused! I'd also love to hear your thoughts on Seserakh. I rather liked her character and didn't have the objections I expected to have to her seemingly fated marriage to Lebannen. I guess that's because it wasn't focused on as a romance. The question more seemed to be whether they could avoid becoming dire enemies. By book's end, they are friendly, but they still don't know one another. The relationship is just beginning, rather than being an established fact. One more thing: I loved the ending. Such a feeling of openness and possibility in just those few words: "Did you walk in the forest?" "Not yet," he said. I can't believe I am still at work! I will send this now and hie me home. Best wishes to all. -- Janice ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Oct 13 14:01:42 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (n10.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.60]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9DHWEl03027 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 10:32:14 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-363-1002994297-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.221] by n10.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Oct 2001 17:31:37 -0000 X-Sender: dorothea@terracom.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 13 Oct 2001 17:31:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 1632 invoked from network); 13 Oct 2001 17:31:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.221 with QMQP; 13 Oct 2001 17:31:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mendota.terracom.net) (208.170.71.129) by mta1 with SMTP; 13 Oct 2001 17:31:35 -0000 Received: from [208.170.95.113] (3C2-113.terracom.net [208.170.95.113]) by mendota.terracom.net (8.9.1a/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13455 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:32:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9q2g6r+gf8l@eGroups.com> References: <9q2g6r+gf8l@eGroups.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dorothea Salo MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 12:33:29 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] A Few Thoughts about *The Other Wind* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 985bbfb3c90777108f479a8706890490 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 Spoilers ho. Close this message now, ye who care to remain unspoiled. >I finished it. It moved me, and I am still thinking about it. So'm I. > So little said, but I can imagine these four women >playing their game together, sparking off one another, laughing. I'm >curious too. I'm drawn to that cabin. I must say that this scene and others like it annoyed me considerably. It isn't like LeGuin to leave her readers as outsiders looking in. I couldn't help wondering if the reason such scenes were framed in that manner is that she actually couldn't figure out much for them to talk about -- which is a terrible shame. It's not as if _The Other Wind_ is a long book. (I mean, really, publishing houses don't seem to have much trouble putting out huge bricks of nonstop drivel by the likes of R----t J----n.) There's plenty of space for these women to interact with each other in view of the reader. Why does it so rarely happen? One of the best features of _Tehanu_ is the relationships between Tenar, Lark, and Aunty Moss. LeGuin wasn't afraid to let them talk to each other. Why is she so sparing with female interaction in _The Other Wind_? (Maybe because _Tehanu_ got so savaged by some clueless critics?) >The atmosphere and mood Le Guin has crafted are intense. I like this >book very much just on those grounds. However, I am left with some >questions when I think about what exactly has happened. Nothing wrong with *that*. As I think I said before, _Tehanu_ left me with more questions than answers. >And what about the dragons? Dorothea, you said that you thought the >explanation of how people can turn into dragons was "retconny and ad- >hoc and overliteral". I'd like to know why you thought so, because I >still can't figure out how they DO turn into dragons! Why Irian and >Tehanu and no one else? And why are they daughters of Kalessin, and >not some other dragon? "'Cuz they're born that way." Which is a cop-out, *I* think. As I said, I hope it turns out to be wrong, or at least incomplete. There should be more to it than that. >And why must dragons and humans part forever >now? Color me confused! This is the tail-end of a parting that began long ago. The land of the dead turns out to be sort of a no-beings-land between the dragons (whose elemental nature appears to be air and fire) and humans (whose nature is earth and water -- has anybody ever done a study of the four elements in Earthsea? That's always jumped out at me). With that dismantled, the two realms are parting permanently. Or so I recall. >I'd also love to hear your thoughts on Seserakh. I rather liked her >character and didn't have the objections I expected to have to her >seemingly fated marriage to Lebannen. I liked her too. I just didn't see nearly enough of her. I don't fully understand her change of heart toward Lebannen and the Hardic realms. Her sudden defense of him at the end felt rather wrong to me, more than a little hokey -- regina ex machina, if you will. I didn't see inside her enough to empathize fully with her struggle to acculturate herself, *much though I wanted to*. I get the impression that LeGuin felt divided about keeping her a mystery (the Kargs are one of the last mysteries Earthsea has) versus letting her take part in the action as a fully-developed character. What we ended up with is, IMO, an unsatisfying mixture of both. I guess that's because it >wasn't focused on as a romance. The question more seemed to be >whether they could avoid becoming dire enemies. By book's end, they >are friendly, but they still don't know one another. The relationship >is just beginning, rather than being an established fact. Okay, point taken. I can live with that, I suppose. I would have preferred, though, that the relationship begin on something of a less high-strung note. Dorothea ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Oct 14 16:58:53 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n30.groups.yahoo.com (n30.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.80]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9DN6Tl09598 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:06:29 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-364-1003014353-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.224] by n30.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Oct 2001 23:05:53 -0000 X-Sender: roddy.graham@virgin.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 13 Oct 2001 23:05:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 48767 invoked from network); 13 Oct 2001 23:05:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.224 with QMQP; 13 Oct 2001 23:05:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.123) by mta2 with SMTP; 13 Oct 2001 23:05:52 -0000 Received: from virgin.net ([62.31.139.198]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.687.68); Sun, 14 Oct 2001 00:05:49 +0100 Message-ID: <3BC8C80F.6495FF7@virgin.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <138.2ae5177.28f13eae@aol.com> <003001c14f51$7ca1ac40$c4887ed4@dan> From: Roddy Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 00:02:39 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: staying at home Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 518ebeb93f08b84db37bd0e02b2490e8 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8 Robins - one of wrote: > I quote (to make sure I stay on topic!) The Dispossessed - can't find it but > Takver I think > remembers Odo's husband saying 'can't you serve the truth a little at a > time?' > Grafton paperback edition of 1975, page 160 (two pages before chapter seven): The usage the creator spirit gives its vessels is rough, it wears them out, discards them, gets a new model. For Takver there were no replacements, and when she saw how hard Shevek was used she protested, she would have cried out as Odo's husband, Aseio, did once, 'For god's sake, girl, can't you serve Truth a little at a time?' - except that she was the girl, and was unacquainted with God. I tried to find this by flicking through, gave up and had to read 160 pages to get it - no hardship there though. found loads of other great quotable bits. chiz chiz rdg PS Staying on topic is good. I note with disgruntlement that apology levels have been running high lately. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Oct 14 16:59:06 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n1.groups.yahoo.com (n1.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.51]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9E2Rll13128 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:27:47 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-365-1003026431-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.220] by n1.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Oct 2001 02:27:11 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 14 Oct 2001 02:27:10 -0000 Received: (qmail 19586 invoked from network); 14 Oct 2001 02:27:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 14 Oct 2001 02:27:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 Oct 2001 02:27:09 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) via ESMTP id f9E2R8vS004039 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:27:08 -0600 (MDT) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BC9073E.ED53669C@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <138.2ae5177.28f13eae@aol.com> <003001c14f51$7ca1ac40$c4887ed4@dan> <3BC8C80F.6495FF7@virgin.net> From: Grey Walker MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 20:32:15 -0700 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: staying on topic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6bb84ab5223ff93bf88e7532e2c97153 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 Roddy Graham wrote: > PS Staying on topic is good. I note with disgruntlement that apology > levels > have been running high lately. Sorry, Roddy! *grin* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Oct 14 16:59:06 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n34.groups.yahoo.com (n34.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.84]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9E4JBl14765 for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:19:11 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-366-1003033115-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.223] by n34.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Oct 2001 04:18:35 -0000 X-Sender: dayvoll@ocelotfactory.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 14 Oct 2001 04:18:34 -0000 Received: (qmail 5204 invoked from network); 14 Oct 2001 04:18:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 14 Oct 2001 04:18:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-1.enteract.com) (207.229.143.33) by mta2 with SMTP; 14 Oct 2001 04:18:34 -0000 Received: from [207.229.148.147] (207-229-148-216.d.enteract.com [207.229.148.216]) by smtp-1.enteract.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87BF8D6E for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:16:37 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: dayvoll@pop.enteract.com Message-Id: To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com From: Dave Awl MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:16:29 -0500 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Re: staying on topic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 874cecb6fdbba1d17dc8a5f8f5f87914 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 55 >Roddy Graham wrote: > >> PS Staying on topic is good. I note with disgruntlement that apology >> levels > > have been running high lately. Roddy, you make this kind of comment from time to time, and I assume it's at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek. That's fine. But speaking as founder and moderator of the group, I would like to make it very clear that I *love* the fact that people on this group have enough courtesy and respect for each other to apologize from time to time. I'm very pleased that our Ekumenites have strongly held opinions, yet manage to express them in ways that show consideration for others. I think that's necessary to creating and maintaining the kind of Odonian spirit of cooperation UKL would want any group named in her honor to have. Believe me, I've been part of far too many groups where the general tone was rude, abrasive and constantly confrontational. Lists where members end arguments about anarcho-syndicalism by threatening to knock each other's teeth in. That sort of thing is deeply unpleasant to log on to every day, and I refuse to allow the tone to degenerate to that level on any group I moderate. (I don't censor posts, but I do reserve the right to walk away from running any group where members refuse to respect each other.) So: feel free to kid us for our courtesies if you must. But I am hereby balancing the satire with a round of earnest applause for the friendly and considerate tone that prevails here, and a request that nobody feel intimidated into dropping their natural instincts toward polite discourse. Dave -- _______________________________________________ The new, improved Ocelot Factory: http://www.ocelotfactory.com ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://us.click.yahoo.com/d49MCB/3WDDAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Oct 14 16:59:31 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9EGGEl24505 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 09:16:14 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-367-1003076138-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.222] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Oct 2001 16:15:38 -0000 X-Sender: Judyldubois@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 14 Oct 2001 16:15:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 46845 invoked from network); 14 Oct 2001 16:15:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 14 Oct 2001 16:15:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r04.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 14 Oct 2001 16:15:37 -0000 Received: from Judyldubois@aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id r.15e.24a45f0 (4463) for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <15e.24a45f0.28fb1423@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 115 From: judyldubois@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:15:31 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 136 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ece5c6d122d454b226c557cfd37fe4f0 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 97 Dear Dave, Thanks for the reminder about courtesy, which comes from the French word "coeur" which means heart. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Oct 15 12:53:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9F104l04379 for ; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:00:05 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-368-1003107562-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Oct 2001 00:59:27 -0000 X-Sender: mikeantholy@yahoo.ca X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_4_1); 15 Oct 2001 00:59:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 44134 invoked from network); 15 Oct 2001 00:59:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 15 Oct 2001 00:59:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web20105.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.226.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 15 Oct 2001 00:59:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20011015005921.96465.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.106.24.51] by web20105.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:59:21 EDT To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <1003067569.360.46093.m12@yahoogroups.com> From: Michael Antholy MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] A social disease [by Smarandache] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6dcce704805d05ef762f74beb4c497b2 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11 The Social Disease, created by mass media's political manipulation, is the following: Give citizens the impression/disillusion they are free, and they'd feel they are - even if they are not. Give citizens the impression they live in a democratic society, they'd feel they do - even if they do not. And absolute free society may not exist. Countries differ by their degree of undemocracy. http://www.gallup.unm.edu/~smarandache/Neutrosophy.pdf _______________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/Gi0tnD/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Tue Oct 16 17:07:10 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n9.groups.yahoo.com (n9.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.59]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9GNjWl18817 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:45:32 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-369-1003275892-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.220] by n9.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Oct 2001 23:44:53 -0000 X-Sender: rr009a0007@cableinet.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 16 Oct 2001 23:44:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 13752 invoked from network); 16 Oct 2001 23:43:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.220 with QMQP; 16 Oct 2001 23:43:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO blueyonder.co.uk) (195.188.53.98) by mta3 with SMTP; 16 Oct 2001 23:43:15 -0000 Received: from cableinet.co.uk ([62.31.134.34]) by blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:43:15 +0000 Message-ID: <3BCCC551.3555EBCF@cableinet.co.uk> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: X-eGroups-From: Roddy Graham From: Roddy Graham X-Yahoo-Profile: rodbodtoo MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 00:40:00 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: staying on topic Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 6fc20c67548e13d9da08c7e71a98e4f4 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 112 Dave Awl wrote: > >Roddy Graham wrote: > > > >> PS Staying on topic is good. I note with disgruntlement that apology > >> levels > > > have been running high lately. > > Roddy, you make this kind of comment from time to time, and I assume > it's at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Three replies - you choose (hey!, let's have a poll) 1. Annoying I do enjoy reading [the-ekumen], but I am a grumpy old bugger who dislikes long-windedness. (In others. In myself I can tolerate it) 2. Pompous I do hope to raise a smile or so with these remarks. I am somewhat hypocritical when I make a such a remark as I have myself apologised to the list three (THREE!) times (). My real, serious, purpose is to tackle the problem of waste of bandwidth. I don't mean internet bandwidth, but human bandwidth, _my_ bandwidth. UKL's stories are important to me, and [the-ekumen] is important because it helps me understand the stories better. That it also provides a kind of fellowship, kindred spirit, is a grand bonus. But, but, BUT. I have a limited amount of attention to spread around (chorus of 'me too', no doubt). In an ideal world every contribution would be a haiku. A seventeen syllable contribution to a global conversation of minds, shorn of all superfluity. {IMPORTANT BIT} In such an abstract conversation, an interchange of ideas, personal courtesies really seem superfluous to me, because the ideas are not attached to the person who utters them - to contradict an idea is by no means to imply anything about the speaker. There have been no ad hominem remarks in this list; this is as it should be. But we need not apologise when our ideas clash. 3. Haiku - "The Rules of [the-ekumen]" Idea is all. One topic, Earthsea's maker. No apologies. chiz chiz rdg To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 17 10:01:20 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n34.groups.yahoo.com (n34.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.84]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9HDNXl11650 for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 06:23:33 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-370-1003324973-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.56] by n34.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 Oct 2001 13:22:54 -0000 X-Sender: Judyldubois@aol.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 17 Oct 2001 13:22:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 3363 invoked from network); 17 Oct 2001 13:22:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Oct 2001 13:22:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m08.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.163) by mta3 with SMTP; 17 Oct 2001 13:22:52 -0000 Received: from Judyldubois@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.8.) id r.57.404920 (4184) for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:22:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <57.404920.28fee01a@aol.com> To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 115 From: judyldubois@aol.com X-Yahoo-Profile: lobranwen MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 09:22:34 EDT Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Digest Number 138 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: a0150ee72a4f9056fbe97d012d2f1c74 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 155 Reply to Rodney, Personal courtesy is never superfluous. I once read an explanation that in isolated rural communities courtesy could be minimal, because everyone knows everyone and there's plenty of outdoor shouting room, but in societies where people live very much one on top of another, it becomes an absolute necessity for survival. The internet is a strange combination of being all alone in front of your screen, so why worry about being courteous, and being connected to hundreds? thousands? millions ? of people around the world. I don't think a little grease in the works does any harm, and it could do some good. Judy To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sat Oct 20 15:48:01 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n3.groups.yahoo.com (n3.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.53]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9KAf6l22142 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 03:41:07 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-371-1003574424-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.224] by n3.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 20 Oct 2001 10:40:24 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 20 Oct 2001 10:40:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 60850 invoked from network); 20 Oct 2001 10:40:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by 10.1.1.224 with QMQP; 20 Oct 2001 10:40:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3 with SMTP; 20 Oct 2001 10:40:23 -0000 Received: from [212.126.133.79] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 15utYC-0007Kq-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:40:21 +0100 Message-ID: <000801c15953$663b3b40$4f857ed4@dan> To: References: <3BCCC551.3555EBCF@cableinet.co.uk> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" X-Yahoo-Profile: elsiepiddock MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 11:38:23 +0100 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: staying on topic - Haiku Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: ac953059ac62e3bd9d51e07db4cafe2e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 74 Roddy Mm - 17 syllables - can I count? Sometimes I make 16 sometimes 15. I too can be a pedant Love your haiku - but Ekumen complexity Demands extension (I demand the right to be long winded from time to time! you don't have to read what I say) I believe there may be another haiku rule which governs how many syllables on each line but I don't know it and have proabably busted it. Were you being everso subtle and hinting you break rules yourself? My daughter (12) read your comments over my shoulder and said I should tell you she thinks you're cool! Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Roddy Graham To: Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] Re: staying on topic > Dave Awl wrote: > > > >Roddy Graham wrote: > > > > > >> PS Staying on topic is good. I note with disgruntlement that apology > > >> levels > > > > have been running high lately. > > > > Roddy, you make this kind of comment from time to time, and I assume > > it's at least somewhat tongue-in-cheek. > > Three replies - you choose (hey!, let's have a poll) > > 1. Annoying > > I do enjoy reading [the-ekumen], but I am a grumpy old bugger who dislikes > long-windedness. (In others. In myself I can tolerate it) > > > > 2. Pompous > > I do hope to raise a smile or so with these remarks. I am somewhat > hypocritical when I make a such a remark as I have myself apologised to the > list three (THREE!) times (). > > My real, serious, purpose is to tackle the problem of waste of bandwidth. I > don't mean internet bandwidth, but human bandwidth, _my_ bandwidth. UKL's > stories are important to me, and [the-ekumen] is important because it helps > me understand the stories better. That it also provides a kind of > fellowship, kindred spirit, is a grand bonus. > > But, but, BUT. I have a limited amount of attention to spread around (chorus > of 'me too', no doubt). > > In an ideal world every contribution would be a haiku. A seventeen syllable > contribution to a global conversation of minds, shorn of all superfluity. > > {IMPORTANT BIT} In such an abstract conversation, an interchange of ideas, > personal courtesies really seem superfluous to me, because the ideas are not > attached to the person who utters them - to contradict an idea is by no > means to imply anything about the speaker. > > There have been no ad hominem remarks in this list; this is as it should be. > But we need not apologise when our ideas clash. > > > > 3. Haiku - "The Rules of [the-ekumen]" > > Idea is all. > One topic, Earthsea's maker. > No apologies. > > chiz chiz > > rdg > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/Gi0tnD/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Oct 21 18:51:18 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n13.groups.yahoo.com (n13.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.63]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9LJRXl16177 for ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 12:27:33 -0700 (PDT) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-372-1003692410-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.223] by n13.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 21 Oct 2001 19:25:27 -0000 X-Sender: whitefire@poczta.onet.pl X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 21 Oct 2001 19:26:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 9805 invoked from network); 21 Oct 2001 19:26:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.223 with QMQP; 21 Oct 2001 19:26:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ghost2.onet.pl) (213.180.128.23) by mta1 with SMTP; 21 Oct 2001 19:26:48 -0000 Received: from pc102.gorzow.cvx.ppp.tpnet.pl ([213.76.112.102]:7172 "HELO MariuszMoryl") by ghost2.onet.pl with SMTP id ; Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:26:37 +0200 To: "Ekumen" Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal From: "Mariusz Moryl" X-Yahoo-Profile: alueri MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 21:24:10 +0200 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Hello everybody Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: be2af72b8ff8ea8dd48b37e635aeeb04 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 12 I have just suscribed to the Ekumen (and it's my first discussion group) My name is Mariusz, and I'm from Poland. I study English, and currently I'm starting to work on my M.A. paper. I intend it to be about the use of myth in American literature, particularily about the sea myths. The obvious writers for me to write about are Melville and LeGuin. Perhaps somebody else as well. So, I would appreciate ANY help. The thoughts you would like to share, perhaps, or the sources I could use. I have heard that Mrs. LeGuin is an author of some books which concern the techniques of novel writing, but there's no way I could get my hands on this book (books?). Perhaps somebody out there has it? If so, is there anything about myths in them? My address, if somebody wishes to mail just me, is: whitefire@poczta.onet.pl Thanks once again, Mariusz -- Zamow odbitki ze zdjec cyfrowych lub archiwum zdjec na CD! [ http://lab.foto.onet.pl/laboratorium.html ] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/Gi0tnD/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Oct 31 18:03:01 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n18.groups.yahoo.com (n18.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.68]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id f9VJvpL09086 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:57:51 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-373-1004558217-lquilter=exo.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.1.222] by n18.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Oct 2001 19:57:00 -0000 X-Sender: heyiya@earthlink.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 31 Oct 2001 19:56:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 8284 invoked from network); 31 Oct 2001 19:56:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by 10.1.1.222 with QMQP; 31 Oct 2001 19:56:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n31.groups.yahoo.com) (10.1.2.220) by mta1 with SMTP; 31 Oct 2001 19:56:23 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: heyiya@earthlink.net Received: from [10.1.4.65] by n31.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Oct 2001 19:56:23 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9rpl15+chv0@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 134.10.176.32 From: heyiya@earthlink.net X-Yahoo-Profile: heyiya MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:56:21 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] UKL reading in Portland Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 5593abdc1387df3132241e84f9205a6e Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 578 First off, a belated happy St Ursula's Day to all. Oct 21 is the feast of St Ursula, and (I assume not coincidentally) UKL's birthday. She's 72. fyi, if you're in the Portland, OR, area, Ursula K. Le Guin will be reading from _The Other Wind_ at Powells this Friday night. That's 11/2 at 7:30pm. Heather ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Cobra Gas Powered Scooter. Top speed exceeds 25 mph. Originally $599.95. Now $399.95 at Youcansave.com. http://us.click.yahoo.com/K11sED/OkNDAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Nov 05 14:07:37 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n27.groups.yahoo.com (n27.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.77]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fA5Lhgs23780 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:43:42 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-374-1004996564-lquilter=exo.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.4.55] by n27.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2001 21:42:44 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 5 Nov 2001 21:42:43 -0000 Received: (qmail 19936 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2001 21:42:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m11.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Nov 2001 21:42:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Nov 2001 21:42:42 -0000 Received: from [212.126.132.196] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 160rVw-0004rN-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 05 Nov 2001 21:42:41 +0000 Message-ID: <004a01c16642$bd318b60$c4847ed4@dan> To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" X-Yahoo-Profile: elsiepiddock MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 21:42:15 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] UKL and Sheri S Tepper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 9583e799363080b7402b31bf349e9d81 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 163 I have been reading some Sheri S Tepper recently - I got hold of one I hadn't read before Raising the Stones. I really like her - but not as much as UKL (why? tricky). Thinking what is similar about them - feminism, complex societies, addressing scientific issues other sci fi writers don't bother with, carrying a theme from one book to another and what is different - that's also tricky Anyone else interested in the comparison? Hannah PS (look, I'll talk about the Other Wind after Christmas provided my husband pays attention to my present demands - not available in UK yet except through the Internet from the States unless anyone knows different? in the meantime I'm saving evryone's comments unread to savour once I've formed my own views) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Nov 05 19:06:43 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n8.groups.yahoo.com (n8.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.58]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fA617Qs05383 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:07:26 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-375-1005008788-lquilter=exo.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.1.223] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2001 01:06:28 -0000 X-Sender: djwalker@pcisys.net X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 6 Nov 2001 01:06:27 -0000 Received: (qmail 12685 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2001 01:06:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m5.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2001 01:06:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO leo.pcisys.net) (207.76.102.240) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2001 01:06:26 -0000 Received: from pcisys.net (moe1.meg106-135.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.106.135]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.12.1/8.12.1) via ESMTP id fA616PJO004940 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:06:26 -0700 (MST) env-from (djwalker@pcisys.net) Message-ID: <3BE746D7.8573FD2F@pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com References: <004a01c16642$bd318b60$c4847ed4@dan> From: Grey Walker X-Yahoo-Profile: greythefae MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 18:11:35 -0800 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] UKL and Sheri S Tepper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 55db060d23047e23f605aa06a1f35186 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 15 Robins - one of wrote: > I have been reading some Sheri S Tepper recently - I got hold of one I > hadn't read before Raising the Stones. I really like her - but not as > much as UKL (why? tricky). Thinking what is similar about them - > feminism, complex societies, addressing scientific issues other sci fi > writers don't bother with, carrying a theme from one book to another > and what is different - that's also tricky > Anyone else interested in the comparison? To me, there is always a sort of--serenity--about UKL. Even when she's dealing with painful issues, her work is open, candid and sympathetic. Not flat, or unemotional, but, well, "just," I guess. Maybe it's the Taoism at work, I don't know. Tepper, on the other hand, often seethes with tension. I love her work, don't get me wrong. But I don't relax my intellect and soul into it, the way I do with LeGuin. I keep myself in reserve, to judge whether I agree with her or not. With UKL, I don't worry about whether I occasionally disagree with her (though I seldom do!). There's space in her work for disagreement. Just my take. Grey Walker ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Epil Stop & Spray Painless Hair Removal. Spray on and wipe off! Just $24.95 at Youcansave.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/gC2sGD/6jNDAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Nov 07 16:56:50 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n22.groups.yahoo.com (n22.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.72]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fA63s0s10572 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:54:00 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-376-1005018782-lquilter=exo.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.1.222] by n22.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 06 Nov 2001 03:53:02 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 6 Nov 2001 03:53:01 -0000 Received: (qmail 70560 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2001 03:53:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m4.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Nov 2001 03:53:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.8.146) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Nov 2001 03:53:01 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:53:01 -0800 Received: from 203.109.252.13 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 06 Nov 2001 03:53:01 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.13] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Nov 2001 03:53:01.0592 (UTC) FILETIME=[87F02180:01C16676] From: "Jenn Martin" X-Yahoo-Profile: wateryone MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 16:53:01 +1300 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] UKL and Sheri S Tepper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 835c1259534d8487d10407f6ff896fd8 Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 1 I m absolutely interested in the comparison, Hannah! Le Guin and Tepper have been two of my favorite writers for a long time now. But you re right, they re very different, and I like them for different reasons. My favorite two Tepper books are Sideshow and The Awakeners, they both have complex bureaucratic societies and river trips in them (yes, I have a thing for boat-trips in speculative fiction, anyone know any other books with river-boats in them? Pretty please?). My favorite two Le Guin books are Always Coming Home and the Dispossessed, which are both critical utopias. I think Le Guin s more subtle than Tepper, and the main reason I like her is her exploration of philosophical concerns: ie anarchy, taoism, the idea of utopia etc... and her evocation of particular landscapes, like Northern California in Always Coming Home. Le Guin is a master at building worlds that show promise, at building future worlds that reflect the best and the worst of ours, do you know what I mean? She captures the tensions, and is pretty fair in her representation. Tepper s a little less subtle than Le Guin. My partner has trouble reading Tepper because he feels she tries to stuff her "militant man-hating feminism" down the reader s throat. However, he loves Le Guin. I read Tepper for her characters and her world building skills, she has a sense of the irreverent, the playful, that I think works really well for her. He writing style reflects this, she seems a lot less contemplative than Le Guin. She also seems a lot less fair, her point of view seems a lot more biased and hard. And her worlds seem to show the worst that ours has to offer, they are full of violence and injustice, whereas Le Guin s manage to give us (or me, anyway) hope. Le Guin s books seem to be about finding knowledge or the promise of knowledge, Tepper s are almost always about uncovering lies or deceit, and seem to often end with mass world destruction. She s to Le Guin what Jack Vance is to Philip K. Dick. Does that make sense? It feels all wrong, Sheri S Tepper s the odd one out, she s not from the Bay Area. Anyway, I love Tepper, I find her novels so gripping and engaging. You could probably say that both writers are eco- feminists as well, based on a quick inventory of treatments of nature and the future in their novels. It s hard to say which of them is more of a fantasist, they both have very strong fantasy undercurrents in their work (can anyone say Dragons?). I guess Tepper takes the usual fantasy motifs and gives them a scientific explanation. She s almost beyond definition in a lot of ways. The Awakeners doesn't have any science fiction motifs or enabling devices or anything, yet I still label it Science Fiction. Why? I d love it if this discussion could go places, if you don t feel it belongs here we can always take it off-list. Jenn @ http://wateryone.diaryland.com ... ..who s trying to think of an epigraph from Wallace Stevens about the sum of the parts, but couldn t possibly when it's this hot. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Wed Nov 07 17:00:40 2001 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:17:20 -0800 (PST) From: Laura Quilter X-Sender: lquilter@isaac To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] UKL and Sheri S Tepper In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-UIDL: 16ca8ea79f4270b1d871d00551ec6cc1 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 289 i agree with a lot of things here. however, i want to comment on the militant man-hating feminism. tepper is angry, for sure, and angry as a feminist -- she's angry at misogyny etc. but she's not man-hating. i know it's a subtle difference for those who think that all men are misogynists, but it's pretty significant. i do think it's important to distinguish the concepts in this kind of discussion. tepper is angry, not just at misogyny in men, but misogyny in religion, government, etc. now, re: tepper & leguin -- i really like tepper, but i've been frustrated with the general trend since, i guess, BEAUTY -- there have been a few titles that seemed to try new things, eg., FAMILY TREE, and the most recent novel -- but for the most part it's been quest narratives and ultimate-evil confrontations. each of the novels has more to it than that, of course; interesting plots, characters, gimmicks. so i'm a little frustrated with tepper's reach re: plot these days. i have *also* been somewhat frustrated with her reach analytically -- tepper is angry, and i share her anger, but i want a more nuanced picture, especially if i'm reading her novels over time. i mean, there's 20-something novels now, and the analysis hasn't evolved, we're not seeing different shades of it or different angles -- it's the same. the criticisms & the praise i had of her analysis in her middle phase (RAISING THE STONES, GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY) are still there. but there's not a lot of new ground, analytically, and plot-wise as i've already said there's even less. i really love tepper, and i want her to do more work that is challenging -- GATE TO WOMEN'S COUNTRY, GRASS, and BEAUTY were all challenging, and all interesting stylistically. early Tepper (AWAKENERS, REVENANTS, MARIANNE books, TRUE GAME series) has a much stronger horror / fantasy base, and the quest themes & critique of sexism are not as strong a theme. leguin on the other hand continues to astound me; year after year i think she gets better. although i'm not always as interested in one theme or another, i think she is intensely subtle, nuanced, and continually evolving, playing with new ideas, and returning to old ones. her politics evolve as does her writing. and i think she's tremendously funny. On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Jenn Martin wrote: > Tepper s a little less subtle than Le Guin. My partner has trouble reading > Tepper because he feels she tries to stuff her "militant man-hating > feminism" down the reader s throat. However, he loves Le Guin. I read > Tepper for her characters and her world building skills, she has a sense of > the irreverent, the playful, that I think works really well for her. He > writing style reflects this, she seems a lot less contemplative than Le > Guin. She also seems a lot less fair, her point of view seems a lot more > biased and hard. And her worlds seem to show the worst that ours has to > offer, they are full of violence and injustice, whereas Le Guin s manage to > give us (or me, anyway) hope. Le Guin s books seem to be about finding > knowledge or the promise of knowledge, Tepper s are almost always about > uncovering lies or deceit, and seem to often end with mass world > destruction. She s to Le Guin what Jack Vance is to Philip K. Dick. Does > that make sense? It feels all wrong, Sheri S Tepper s the odd one out, she > s not from the Bay Area. > > Anyway, I love Tepper, I find her novels so gripping and engaging. You > could probably say that both writers are eco- feminists as well, based on a > quick inventory of treatments of nature and the future in their novels. It > s hard to say which of them is more of a fantasist, they both have very > strong fantasy undercurrents in their work (can anyone say Dragons?). I > guess Tepper takes the usual fantasy motifs and gives them a scientific > explanation. She s almost beyond definition in a lot of ways. The > Awakeners doesn't have any science fiction motifs or enabling devices or > anything, yet I still label it Science Fiction. Why? > > I d love it if this discussion could go places, if you don t feel it belongs > here we can always take it off-list. > > Jenn @ http://wateryone.diaryland.com ... > > ..who s trying to think of an epigraph from Wallace Stevens about the sum of > the parts, but couldn t possibly when it's this hot. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Laura Quilter / lquilter@exo.net From ???@??? Wed Nov 07 17:02:47 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n6.groups.yahoo.com (n6.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.56]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fA79Ljs10041 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:21:45 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-378-1005124845-lquilter=exo.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by n6.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Nov 2001 09:20:46 -0000 X-Sender: the_last_naiad@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 7 Nov 2001 09:20:44 -0000 Received: (qmail 16250 invoked from network); 7 Nov 2001 09:20:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Nov 2001 09:20:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (64.4.9.19) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Nov 2001 09:20:44 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 01:20:44 -0800 Received: from 203.109.252.11 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 07 Nov 2001 09:20:44 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.109.252.11] To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Nov 2001 09:20:44.0820 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A8C5D40:01C1676D] From: "Jenn Martin" X-Yahoo-Profile: wateryone MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 22:20:44 +1300 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] UKL and Sheri S Tepper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 3330d666445c0e407e179b656e397b09 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 449 I agree Laura, I don't think Tepper's a man hater, I was quoting my partner, who simply won't budge from this point of view, he has pigeon-holed her and won't change his opinion, it infurates me. I agree with the way you have described her - as angry, and fair enough. just Jenn (who is served right for bringing a personal gripe onto a list discussion) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Sun Nov 11 14:26:05 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n20.groups.yahoo.com (n20.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.70]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fABGIXs06806 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 08:18:33 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-379-1005495449-lquilter=exo.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.1.220] by n20.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Nov 2001 16:15:11 -0000 X-Sender: robins@clara.co.uk X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 11 Nov 2001 16:17:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 35148 invoked from network); 11 Nov 2001 16:17:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.167) by m2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Nov 2001 16:17:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oracle.clara.net) (195.8.69.94) by mta1.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Nov 2001 16:17:26 -0000 Received: from [195.8.79.162] (helo=dan) by oracle.clara.net with smtp (Exim 3.11 #5) id 162xIR-0006bN-00 for the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:17:23 +0000 Message-ID: <002f01c16acc$48d55e20$a24f08c3@dan> To: References: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 From: "Robins - one of" X-Yahoo-Profile: elsiepiddock MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 16:16:55 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] UKL and Sheri S Tepper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: 791ccf97b019dc55833692327e7d3d7c Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 641 Jenn Wish I had time to get more into this. Yes - I think Tepper is hard and a bit 'militant man-hating'. I agree that Le Guin is more subtle and more contemplative. I also think she's the better scientist-philosopher - Tepper tends to treat science as a device for her plot. LeGuin does this as well of course but she looks into the idea behind - for example in 'The masters' in the Winds 12 quarters. On feminism - LeGuin is definitely fairer to men - or to put it another way more balanced between the 2 genders. Tepper made a generalism about men and women in Raising the Stones which I definitely didn't agree with! (unfortnuately can't seem to find it just now) as it applied to me for one! but she's a great imaginative story teller and I love her ideas. I have never felt I disagreed with anything LeGuin says about men and women - even when her characters seek to generalise as happens quite a bit in The Dispossessed on Urras. Of course the really interesting thing is has she got convincing 'potential gender' people in The Left Hand of Darkness - here again I find that totally convincing and uplifting into the bargain Hannah ----- Original Message ----- From: Jenn Martin To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 3:53 AM Subject: Re: [the-ekumen] UKL and Sheri S Tepper > I m absolutely interested in the comparison, Hannah! Le Guin and Tepper > have been two of my favorite writers for a long time now. But you re right, > they re very different, and I like them for different reasons. My favorite > two Tepper books are Sideshow and The Awakeners, they both have complex > bureaucratic societies and river trips in them (yes, I have a thing for > boat-trips in speculative fiction, anyone know any other books with > river-boats in them? Pretty please?). My favorite two Le Guin books are > Always Coming Home and the Dispossessed, which are both critical utopias. > > I think Le Guin s more subtle than Tepper, and the main reason I like her is > her exploration of philosophical concerns: ie anarchy, taoism, the idea of > utopia etc... and her evocation of particular landscapes, like Northern > California in Always Coming Home. Le Guin is a master at building worlds > that show promise, at building future worlds that reflect the best and the > worst of ours, do you know what I mean? She captures the tensions, and is > pretty fair in her representation. > > Tepper s a little less subtle than Le Guin. My partner has trouble reading > Tepper because he feels she tries to stuff her "militant man-hating > feminism" down the reader s throat. However, he loves Le Guin. I read > Tepper for her characters and her world building skills, she has a sense of > the irreverent, the playful, that I think works really well for her. He > writing style reflects this, she seems a lot less contemplative than Le > Guin. She also seems a lot less fair, her point of view seems a lot more > biased and hard. And her worlds seem to show the worst that ours has to > offer, they are full of violence and injustice, whereas Le Guin s manage to > give us (or me, anyway) hope. Le Guin s books seem to be about finding > knowledge or the promise of knowledge, Tepper s are almost always about > uncovering lies or deceit, and seem to often end with mass world > destruction. She s to Le Guin what Jack Vance is to Philip K. Dick. Does > that make sense? It feels all wrong, Sheri S Tepper s the odd one out, she > s not from the Bay Area. > > Anyway, I love Tepper, I find her novels so gripping and engaging. You > could probably say that both writers are eco- feminists as well, based on a > quick inventory of treatments of nature and the future in their novels. It > s hard to say which of them is more of a fantasist, they both have very > strong fantasy undercurrents in their work (can anyone say Dragons?). I > guess Tepper takes the usual fantasy motifs and gives them a scientific > explanation. She s almost beyond definition in a lot of ways. The > Awakeners doesn't have any science fiction motifs or enabling devices or > anything, yet I still label it Science Fiction. Why? > > I d love it if this discussion could go places, if you don t feel it belongs > here we can always take it off-list. > > Jenn @ http://wateryone.diaryland.com ... > > ..who s trying to think of an epigraph from Wallace Stevens about the sum of > the parts, but couldn t possibly when it's this hot. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From ???@??? Mon Nov 19 12:59:54 2001 Return-Path: Received: from n12.groups.yahoo.com (n12.groups.yahoo.com [216.115.96.62]) by isaac.exploratorium.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id fAFLLks20092 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 13:21:47 -0800 (PST) X-eGroups-Return: sentto-2266408-380-1005859235-lquilter=exo.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.4.52] by n12.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2001 21:20:37 -0000 X-Sender: roni_web@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-8_0_0_1); 15 Nov 2001 21:20:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 78650 invoked from network); 15 Nov 2001 21:20:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.171) by m8.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Nov 2001 21:20:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n8.groups.yahoo.com) (216.115.96.58) by mta3.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 2001 21:20:36 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: roni_web@yahoo.com Received: from [10.1.2.133] by n8.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 15 Nov 2001 21:20:35 -0000 To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: <9t1bj0+m776@eGroups.com> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 131.193.193.155 From: "Veronica" X-Yahoo-Profile: roni_web MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com; contact the-ekumen-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 21:20:32 -0000 Reply-To: the-ekumen@yahoogroups.com Subject: [the-ekumen] Powells.com & ULG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UIDL: b499a93e191c14ccb1b4e859c5e8181d Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 509 Powells.com has a limited supply of 1st edition, autographed copies of Ursula LeGuin's new "Earthsea" novel. I just got mine today!! It's only $25 too!! Plus, $5 shipping. But oh, well. I can't wait to get the book!!!! ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/1_Y1qC/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/F77qlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: the-ekumen-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/